B&G100 "squeals".

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Old 12-01-11, 12:29 PM
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B&G100 "squeals".

Greetings, I have an older American Standard boiler which has just had a new B&G100 circulator pump installed. It was oiled correctly from what I can tell but after a couple days it started to make a squeal/screech noise. The noise only occurs after the heat has been on for a bit and is barely noticeable on start up but definitely noticeable (loud) just as the pump shuts off.

Repairs were done about 2-3 weeks ago:

New B&G100 Pump
New expansion valve
Added a shut off valve next to expansion valve.
New drain plug.

System was drained and refilled after the above and all 9 radiators bled. The expansion tank is about 1 yr. old.

The reason for the repairs started as a faulty expansion valve because 2 of my radiators were dead cold and had no water. Coincidentally, these 2 radiators are the highest of the 9. Both are built into the wall. One about 2'H x 3'W, the other 19"Hx18"W. The other 7 radiators are baseboard style and are around 9" tall. Cast iron all around.

Don't know if this is important but I figure I'll give as much info as I can. When the heat kicks in I would hear a loud bang. Sometimes once, sometimes 3 times. However, that noise rarely occurs anymore and if it does it's right at the start cycle and is never more than one "bang".

Anyway, I'm more concerned about this squeal/screech noise the pump is making. And again, it's only during start up (minor noise) and shut down (much louder) and only after the heats been on for a while.

I'm sure there is more info you all want like pictures, maybe a video with sound and pressure/temp but I wanted to get the thread rolling first.

Thanks in advance,

Iggy
 
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Old 12-01-11, 05:58 PM
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Hi Iggy,

I'm not real clear on why the pump was even changed?

faulty expansion valve
Can you describe this valve function? I think you may be mis-naming something.

Coincidentally, these 2 radiators are the highest of the 9
Which my immediate reaction would be that there was not enough pressure in the system, and might lead me to suspecting that the "PRESSURE REDUCING VALVE" might not be working. And perhaps that may have been the "Expansion Valve" you are talking about?

When the heat kicks in I would hear a loud bang. Sometimes once, sometimes 3 times. However, that noise rarely occurs anymore and if it does it's right at the start cycle and is never more than one "bang".
Anyway, I'm more concerned about this squeal/screech noise the pump is making.
I myself am more concerned about the "loud bang" on startup... is this system oil or gas fueled?

That loud bang could mean delayed ignition and is something that should be looked at.

I would get them installers back in about the pump noise. They should step up and fix it ... cuz something obviously wrong...

They might have a valve in a wrong position ...

Maybe they even installed the pump backwards... wouldn't be the first time that's happened!

Does the heat seem to be working OK otherwise now? Are the upper radiators now getting hot?
 
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Old 12-02-11, 08:23 AM
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NJ Trooper, you are correct. It was a faulty Pressure Reducing Valve which was replaced and next to it he added in a shut off valve that wasn't there originally.

The heat is working fine to all radiators. The B&G100 was replaced because during said repairs to the PRV it started making a rattling sound. In hindsight and talking to another plumber, it was probably just the impeller or coupler thing (sic) but not knowing any better, the entire pump was replaced.

Oddly enough, I didn't hear it squeal once last night and I'm a very light sleeper. As far as the bang noise, when it does happen it seems to come from the corner of the house that is farthest from the boiler. I suspect it's a trapped pocket of air or, if I understand cavitation correctly, it could be that but why the bang seems isolated to one area of the home is beyond me.

I really need to go downstairs and refresh my memory on how the pump was replaced. Some of the bolts were so old and rusted I think they ended up using the old "flanges" (sic) with the new motor.

I'll try and get some pics for you today.

Quick question though - When the squeal does occur I can't help but envision the propeller thing in the pump brushing against the housing. It makes sense (to me) that it makes the noise very slightly on start up and stops once the rpm's increase and then when it shuts down it makes the loudest squeal as the spinning stops. Does that make sense?
 
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Old 12-02-11, 04:32 PM
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when it does happen it seems to come from the corner of the house that is farthest from the boiler. I suspect it's a trapped pocket of air or, if I understand cavitation correctly, it could be that but why the bang seems isolated to one area of the home is beyond me.
So you're saying it's definitely NOT combustion related then... good.

Does the bang occur IMMEDIATELY when the heat is called? For example when the circ pump starts...

Or, is there some short time lag before you hear it? For example, enough time to build a little heat in the pipes...
 
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Old 12-02-11, 04:35 PM
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it makes the loudest squeal as the spinning stops. Does that make sense?
Sounds like my old truck!

I doubt there's anything rubbing... and you feel confident that it was properly oiled? Did you watch them put the proper amount of oil into the bearing housing?

Here's an excerpt from the PDF file for your pump:

LUBRICATION

Although the new B&G pumps are test run at the factory, they must be lubricated thoroughly before being placed in operation. Bell & Gossett supplies a high quality lubricant specifically for this purpose which can be purchased from any B&G Representative (Part No. L23401).

Proper lubrication procedures are as follows:

1. PUMP BEARINGS Fill the bearing frame according to the oiling instructions decal. At the time of installation, add approximately 1 oz. of B&G #20 weight non-detergent oil. An SAE 20 (non-detergent) or 10W-30 oil may be substituted. Re-lubrication is required at the start of each heating season, or every three months for continuous service. Re-lubricate with 1 teaspoon of oil. More frequent lubrication may be required under adverse conditions such as high ambient temperatures. Less frequent lubrication is required if oil overflows from the reservoir.

2. MOTOR BEARINGS Lubricate through the two motor oilcups according to the lubrication decal. At the time of installation the motor bearings use approx. 12 drops each. At re-lubrication intervals fill each motor bearing with approx. 6-8 drops. More or less frequent re-lubrication may be required depending on the installation conditions.

NOTE: Over-oiling can cause motor mount deterioration and may cause spillage onto surrounding surfaces. Deteriorated motor mounts will lead to misalignment and excessive coupler wear.
You can view the entire PDF here:

http://completewatersystems.com/wp-c...alBGP81748.pdf

Look it over and see if your pump is properly installed...
 
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Old 12-02-11, 05:25 PM
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Why don't you just call back the plumber who installed the new pump?

The "bang" would not be caused by cavitation unless the noise came from the pump. It could be pipe expansion noise.

Your theory of why the impeller's rubbing is causing the squeal - it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You can pull the rotor and see if your see any sign of rubbing. But again, call the plumber back. Noises are very difficult to diagnose over the internet.
 
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Old 12-03-11, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
I doubt there's anything rubbing... and you feel confident that it was properly oiled? Did you watch them put the proper amount of oil into the bearing housing?
This is bizarre. It's almost like the noises knew I posted about them here and now they are gone. I wonder if that can work with one of my neighbors?

I feel confident it was oiled correctly because I had already looked up the oiling instructions and played dumb by asking him afterward what I need to oil going forward for proper maintenance. He answered correctly so while I didn't "see" it, I still feel confident.

As far as the bang noise, it comes from the pipes farthest from the boiler. I have an office directly above the boiler and can hear the start up and shut down of each heating cycle. I've never heard the bang noise from this location.

This is what I hear during start up/shut down:

Pump kicks in with a minor squeal then the boiler with a swooshing type noise (ignition I'm assuming). Moments later anywhere from one to three "bangs". Pump and Boiler heating cycle stops with a louder squeal.

That's the worst case scenario that I've just described, however, like I said, the noises appear to have stopped for 2 days now. I'm now wondering if an air pocket could have been causing both the squeal and bang noises but finally made its way to the expansion tank? I dunno man.

And to answer the "why not get the guy back?" question - the noises stopped so what's he going to troubleshoot?
 
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Old 12-03-11, 10:16 AM
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I wonder if that can work with one of my neighbors?
That's funny! I hear squealing noises coming out of my neighbor's house too!
Wait a minnit... are you my other neighbor?

Air in pipes can cause weird noises... but usually 'bangs' from the piping are associated with expansion/contraction of the pipes as they heat and cool. If the pipes are restrained from being allowed to do their thing by rubbing against floor boards, framing members and such, they will build up tension and 'BOOM"! Sorta the same mechanism as an earthquake.

So, if the 'moments later' you mention is enough time for some heat to build in the system, it's still possible that you have a pipe rubbing and hanging up somewhere. It's usually a 'wild goose chase' to try to find exactly where it's occurring (sorta like trying to find which smoke detector has the bad battery), but a good visual exam might reveal the epicenter of the earthquake. Try cutting plastic shims from milk bottles and sliding them into any suspect tight spots you might find.

I would still talk to the guy and tell him what you've heard... that way if the noises come back in a month or two you have some 'back up' documented that the noises started almost immediately after the pump was changed, and a better chance of some restitution if it becomes necessary.
 
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Old 12-18-11, 03:17 PM
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Well I'm back. And that's not good because the pump is squealing again. Seems like it stopped for a while but now I think I know why. It was warmer and the pump wasn't working non stop but now it's cold and it's kicking in every 15 minutes.

First off, NJ Trooper, thanks for replying earlier. I appreciate that.

After weeks of listening and trying to determine what could possibly be causing this noise I've gotta ask this:

As the pump continually works under constant use, what would cause this squeal/screeching noise -just- as it shuts off? It's almost to me that once it's been under duress for several hours is when the noise starts. Bearings? Needing Oil? Something heats up and needs realigning?

Yes, I know. I need the guy back when it's making the noise. Problem is, it came and went and he's been busy so until I get him here to listen when it happens, I'm asking for advice here once again.
 
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Old 12-18-11, 03:36 PM
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It's a tough one Iggy, I don't really know what to tellya...

I know that you're confident that your guy properly oiled the pump... the oil ports on the front and back of the motor itself don't need a heckuva lot of oil... those just feed felt 'wicks' that keep the bearing oiled, but the one on the top of the bearing assembly takes like a tablespoon or so. You might be able to use something as a 'dipstick' to see if there's any oil in there...

Why when it's slowing down... good question... maybe when it's up to speed, the squeal is a much higher frequency... maybe only dogs can hear it? and when it slows down humans can hear it? I dunno... do your lizards freak out when the pump is running?

Or maybe when the motor shuts off, the armature moves back a little bit... and rubs on something.

I know, crazy talk... but I can't really help with much more than that...

Get out yer Android and make a movie with sound so the tech guy can see and hear.
 
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Old 12-18-11, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Iguana Man View Post
Yes, I know. I need the guy back when it's making the noise. Problem is, it came and went and he's been busy so until I get him here to listen when it happens, I'm asking for advice here once again.
How sure are you that the noise is coming from the pump? How do you know? Have you put a stick up to the pump and put your ear up to the other end of the stick? And done the same for other possible sources of the noise that have been mentioned earlier in this thread?

I like Trooper's idea of filming the problem and noise. But you need to get the guy who sold you the pump and installed it, back for warranty call(s) - I wouldn't be impressed by his being "busy" - I would call him tomorrow morning and tell him to come that very day.

If you were a DIYer (which I gather you are not), and you were sure the noise was coming from the pump, I might suggest you pull the pump, inspect it, and turn it by hand, looking for some indication of the problem. Your thinking that the noise may be caused by the pump running longer in the winter doesn't help me - that pump should be fine even if it runs continuously.
 
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Old 12-23-11, 02:28 PM
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Sorry for not replying sooner. Weather's been unusually warm the last few days and of course, the noise stopped once again.

Gilmorrie: I was standing right next to the pump when it shut down and made the squeal/screech noise. Is it possible it came from something else? I suppose but I seriously doubt it.

NJ Trooper: I don't have iguana's anymore but I seriously doubt the noise varies from being heard by humans to not.

For now, I'm going to stop wasting your time until it re-occurs and I get it on video. Until then, have a great Christmas (or "Holiday" as it's call in this PC world).
 
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Old 12-23-11, 02:41 PM
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Same to you Iggy and all the great people here; Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
 
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