trying to determine flow rate

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Old 12-20-11, 01:02 PM
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trying to determine flow rate

hello; i am trying to determine two things on a currently installed solar array that shares a boiler loop. There are 5 zones on this system and there is a grundfos 15-58 installed in the bottom of the boiler loop . There is also another grundfos 15-58 installed directly into the loop that feeds the solar array directly overhead about 18'. The boiler loop is 1 1/2" and the solar loop is 1". ( There is also a circulator in the boiler itself, but only comes on when the boiler fires)
First,
Looking at the pump specs for this circulator pump, it seems one pump would be hard pressed to make this lift and i am wondering if the current setup with 2 pumps is better than if i had a single pump with a different spec for the height it can pump.

Second, i am trying to figure out the correct flow rate so i can accurately determine the btu production of the solar array. Both pumps come on together and go off together.

I appreciate your information. Thanks.
 
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Old 12-20-11, 03:23 PM
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Measuring flow rates isn't all that easy. Here are some ways:

Install pressure gauges on each side of a pump. (You can use a differential pressure gauge, but they are expensive.) Knowing differential pressure across the pump, use the pump's characteristic curve to pick off the flow rate.

Plot the head-flow of the the piping system that the pump supplies. Find where the pump curve and the system curve intersect. This is a quite complicated process for all but the simplest system.

Install a flowmeter in the line.

If you know the input heat to the system, Btu/hr, measure the temperature differential, supply minus return, and calculate the flow rate.
 
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Old 12-20-11, 03:26 PM
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I don't understand how a solar array shares a boiler loop.

Anyway, it doesn't sound like a drain back system?
So the height of the array doesn't effect the "lift" of the pump because the water coming down equalizes the gravity head to zero.
The head will only be the total of all the pipes, fittings, collectors, etc. at a given flow rate.


Peter
 
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Old 12-20-11, 03:38 PM
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the array is not a drain back system. either the boiler or the array can be running, not both. you are right about circulator vs pump, but the performance curves for a pump show the lift and gpm. the lift in my system for the 15-58 appears to be at its max for a single pump. that's why i am trying to figure out the effect of the second pump.
 
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Old 12-20-11, 03:46 PM
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Is this a closed system? If so, what Peter said is correct. For a pump curve, "lift" can refer to either a static or dynamic pressure drop, or both. For a closed system, the pump sees only the dynamic head caused by the friction loss through the system - physical altitude differences make no difference.

P.S. An open system will have a head-tank, open to atmosphere, located at the tip-top of the system. A closed system will pressurized with an expansion tank, but nowhere open to atmosphere.
 

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Old 12-20-11, 03:49 PM
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How did you determine what the "lift" of your system is?

If you wish i have a program that can help figure it all out.
We would have to know all pipe sizes and lengths plus how many, more or less, of each type of fitting there is.
Also need the rated head loss rating of the collectors. And what flow rate you need to achieve.

Peter
 
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Old 12-20-11, 05:37 PM
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i have heard about those programs. i will measure everything tomorrow. do you want me to post it here?
 
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Old 12-20-11, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mtmtntop View Post
i have heard about those programs. i will measure everything tomorrow. do you want me to post it here?
No, we want you to answer this question, as previously asked here by Peter: "How did you determine what the "lift" of your system is?"
 
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Old 12-20-11, 07:01 PM
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1" piping to a solar array should have very low head loss, unless the panels are 300 feet of pipe away from the boiler/system. Panels (if that's what they are, as opposed to evac tubes) have low head loss. A 15-58 is plenty.

1 gpm is a common target flow rate.
 
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Old 12-20-11, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by mtmtntop View Post
i have heard about those programs. i will measure everything tomorrow. do you want me to post it here?
Sure i can try and help.


Peter
 
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Old 12-20-11, 07:53 PM
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Hello Xiphas,
If he had an Alpha or Stratos set for a fixed flow rate and a couple of accurate temperature gauges, then i would think a fairly accurate measurement of the solar BTU production would be possible.
Otherwise, some sort of flow meter, as Gil mentioned should work.

Peter
 
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Old 12-21-11, 03:39 PM
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first, i think i may have confused the issue. this is a 75 evacuated tube array, no flat panels.

here are the different pipe configurations of only the solar loop, through the boiler loop and back to the solar array

1" copper-135'
1 1/2" copper-11'
1 1/2" 90's-4
1" 90's-18
1" 45's -2
1 1/2 x 1 1/2 x1 T-2
1/1/2 gate valves (quarter turn) -2
1" gate valves (quarter turn) -2

Regarding how i figured head, i thought this was the height it had to go between the top and bottom of the system, ie from the array pump to the top of the evac tube array.

in this loop, there are 2 15-58 grundfos pumps and one zone valve. the pumps operate at the same time.

Here is some more info so you can get the idea on what the circulator setup is.

other zones include a 90' foot run to an air handler (heat dump) (180' total distance), 30' to a shell and tube exchanger for an indoor pool, and a hydronic floor in a 450 sq ft room. the air handler (90 feet away also has its own circulator that goes on when that zone opens)


there is usually one zone open, sometimes two. it would be unusual if 3 zones were open.

the boiler is on a timer so it never operates when the solar array zone valve could be open (daylight hours).

let me know if i left out critical information. I am not sure how to figure the resistance in the evac tube manifold. That is 28' and has 1" plumbing into and out of it.

thanks in advance.
 
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Old 12-21-11, 06:40 PM
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Hello,
I'm guessing the fluid is 50% Glycol?

Looked up Apricus tube collectors.
They call for just under 1 gpm for a 30 tube collector.
Thus it would seem that 2.5 gpm would be needed for 75 tubes.
I see that 1.27 gpm has 5 inchesw of head, so guessing about a foot of head, double it for safety?
2 ft head.

Be nice to see a drawing of the system.
Kinda hard for my small brain to follow the setup.

More later,
Peter
 
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Old 12-21-11, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mtmtntop View Post
First,
Looking at the pump specs for this circulator pump, it seems one pump would be hard pressed to make this lift and i am wondering if the current setup with 2 pumps is better than if i had a single pump with a different spec for the height it can pump.

Second, i am trying to figure out the correct flow rate so i can accurately determine the btu production of the solar array. Both pumps come on together and go off together.
Like Peter, not sure I follow all this. Is there a problem with the solar array?

If you want to measure solar BTU production, use something like this:
DLY Water Meter for Measuring Water Flow in Solar Systems
 
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Old 12-21-11, 09:32 PM
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reading these answers, i see a few things. first, i was measuring static head (height) ,not pump head ( moving liquid past resistance) anyway i googled till i found this piece of instruction:
http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Fil...irculators.pdf

i think i have most of the info i need to figure this out, and i see i have to figure it out for every loop to find the loop with the greatest head (resistance)

what i did learn in this process is determining flow rate is not something easily solved in a forum; it can be done, step by step in your house, if you use the link i have shown. (or installing a flow meter, which i may do) . thanks for the help.
 
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Old 12-22-11, 04:40 AM
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This is a simple exercise in a spreadsheet. Good luck. Post back with results. The calcs will also be conservative, and probably underestimate the actual flow rate.
 
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Old 12-29-11, 04:05 PM
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back with calcs

i have several zones in this system, and as it turns out there is no problem with the solar loop. (pump specs vs equivalent length of pipe) I also thought my grundphos 15-58 ran anywhere between the high and low speed detents because of the way the dial/handle is set up. a Consult with the company verifies i was wrong in this assumption, regardless of how the dial appears, there are only 3 distinct speeds.

anyway, it appears the zone with the highest value for head is my hydronic floor loop with a staggering 30, probably because it has 300 feet of 1/2" pex. the pex is in two loops, but both feed out of a single zone valve off the boiler loop. the only pump that would be activated for circulation to the floor would be the grundphos 15-58 which i have on the medium speed.
The taco publication i referenced earlier says that two pumps will double the flow rate but does not say it will change the head. what would you suggest? I am thinking that the floor loops need to either be open only one at a time (make another zone) , or add a pump into this loop. It does not appear that adding another pump to the existing loop would solve the problem. I appreciate your advice.
 
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Old 12-29-11, 04:10 PM
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it has 300 feet of 1/2" pex. the pex is in two loops, but both feed out of a single zone valve off the boiler loop.
Is that 300' in ONE loop? or is that the total of BOTH? i.e. two loops at 150' each?
 
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Old 12-29-11, 04:57 PM
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two loops. actually one was 125' and the other was 175 by the way it laid out in the floor- bay window area. but the two loop come from a single 3/4 line /zone valve then are split via a T and then reducer from 3/4 to 1/2". i should also mention it never seemed like this setup worked . part of the floor, closest to the boiler would be warm while farther out in the loop, it was not warm.
 
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Old 12-29-11, 05:41 PM
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The head loss then for that loop is not for 300' of tubing, if that's how you calculated it. The head on that loop is the two in parallel which is less than in series...

part of the floor, closest to the boiler would be warm while farther out in the loop, it was not warm.
It does sound like not enough flow. I would think that the 15-58 should be man enough to do that job...

I guess there are no thermometers on the supply and return of the loops?

It's always a good design practice to make the radiant loops from a single supply all the same length to insure equal flow in each of the tubes.
 
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Old 12-29-11, 05:43 PM
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Did you figure the amount of radiation required from the pex to determine the flow rate?

30 seems way high even for pex. I have 5/16 pex running ~200ft and I am using a Grundfos 15-10 happily.

The issue is the flow rate that is required, as more flow = more head loss.
 
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Old 12-29-11, 05:51 PM
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How did you arrive at 30' of head for those loops?

At 1 GPM 1/2" pex is about 4 ft of head / 100' ...

At 2 GPM it's about 12 ft / 100 ...

big difference...
 
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Old 12-29-11, 05:51 PM
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the only pump that would be activated for circulation to the floor would be the grundphos 15-58 which i have on the medium speed.
Why not just try turning the pump up to high speed?

IMO tha radiant zone only needs to be figured for 175 of length.


Two pumps in series will add their head for the same flow rate..

Two pumps in parallel will nearly double the flow rate if the head is kept the same as with one pump.

Again, some pictures and or a diagram of the system would be extremely helpful.

Peter
 
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Old 12-29-11, 05:57 PM
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the min /max flow through 1/2" pex is 1.2/2.3 gpm. i just assumed 1.5 gpm to be able to use taco's table (see link in earlier post) My cacls were all done using that taco publication.

according to taco:head loss=
HL = k x c x L x (f1.75)
Where:
HL = the head of the piping system (feet of head)
k = a number based on tubing type/size (found in Table 3)
c = correction factor for fluid type and temperature (found in Table 4)
L = total equivalent length of piping circuit (feet) (from Step 3)
f1.75 = flow rate through piping (gpm) raised to 1.75 power (selected values found in Table 5)

for me k= .0374 , c=1.349 because i am using glycol.,( probably greater than 50/50)
l= 300' pex +44 more feet from fittings and f1.75=2.033 (1.5 gpm flow rate)

so that is how i came up with 30. is this calculation correct?
 
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Old 12-29-11, 06:16 PM
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One thing that complicates matters is that the actual flow is a 'moving target'.

If you took a pump curve chart and then derived a 'system curve' and superimposed that on the pump chart, you could determine the operating flow rate of the system.

so that is how i came up with 30. is this calculation correct?
No. Two pipes in parallel do not 'add' the heads.

Think of it this way, the cross-sectional area of the two loops is larger than a single tube, so it appears to be a single larger tube as far as the pump is concerned.

There is an electrical analogy... two resistors in parallel are always less resistance than either of the individuals. Resistors in series ADD.

I don't know that the analogy is exactly direct, but the formula for resistors is:

R1 X R2
-------
R1 + R2

So if you had two resistors, one 10 ohm (ft of head) and one 15 ohm (ft of head) in parallel, the total resistance (ft of head) would be

10 X 15 divided by 10 + 15 = 6

So the PUMP would see less head than either of the two parallel loops. There WILL be more flow in the shorter loop.
 
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Old 12-29-11, 06:31 PM
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I don't know that the analogy is exactly direct, but the formula for resistors is:
Hello NJT,
According to John Siegenthaller's book it is very similar to Ohm's law but there is a different factor used for the current.
Ohm's law: votlage and current are directly proportional.
Hydronic is a different:
The flow rate is raise to the 1.75 power.
In other words, if the flow rate thru a piping device is doubled, the head increases by a factor of 3.4


Peter
 
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Old 12-29-11, 06:43 PM
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The glycol is murder on the head situation.

For 10,000 bt's at a 10 degree drop:
100 ft of 1/2 pex at 2gpm, with water gives 12.2 ft of head and flows 3.5 ft per second.

The same with glycol is
2.2 gpm 19.8ft of head and 3.8 ft per second
===============

with a 15 degree drop:
water: 1.4 gpm, 6 ft head, 2.3 ft per second
glycol: 1.5 gpm, 9.7 ft of head, 2.6 ft per second



Peter
 
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Old 12-29-11, 07:10 PM
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The flow rate is raise to the 1.75 power.
Thanks Peter...

1.75 eh? any explanation as to the significance?

I wonder if the exact number is 1.732 ? (hint: square root of 3)
or maybe it's 1.77 ? pie are not square, pie are round.
and Siggy is just getting close enough for gummint work.
 
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Old 12-29-11, 07:24 PM
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Here's an article that's right in line with the discussion! Thanks for the inspiration to look Peter!

Determining Flow Rates in Parallel Piping Systems Constructed of Smooth Tubing - Archives - PMEngineer
 
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Old 12-29-11, 07:27 PM
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mtmtntop: min /max flow through 1/2" pex is 1.2/2.3 gpm. i just assumed 1.5 gpm to be able to use taco's table (see link in earlier post) My cacls were all done using that taco publication.
The minimum flow through that pipe is zero, or at least below 1.2 gpm. You can't assume a flow - since that is what you are trying to calculate in the first place. The way to do this is to plot, graphically, the system's head-flow curve vs. the pump curve, and find the intersection - as previously posted.
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-29-11 at 07:37 PM. Reason: added quotes
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Old 12-29-11, 07:37 PM
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mtmtntop: Looking at the pump specs for this circulator pump, it seems one pump would be hard pressed to make this lift and i am wondering if the current setup with 2 pumps is better than if i had a single pump with a different spec for the height it can pump.
Is this a closed system? If so, then what lift? The pump(s) only need to overcome the flow resistance through the piping. The static "lift" is provided by the pressure setting of the system.
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-29-11 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 12-29-11, 08:55 PM
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trying to answer the questions asked

yeah, in my original post i did not know the difference between static lift and , i guess what you would call head, or resistance. i get it now. or at least i think i do.

i guess where i am now is the head , or resistance of the two loops , using that calculation i posted, derives 30. the pump curve for the 15-58 at no flow is about 19 ft. and it goes down from there. so something must be wrong with the calculation but...

re another post, would the pump see the two loops as the equivalent of 150 of 1" ? then the calcs would change dramatically, like to 0.917'( 1 ft) instead of 30'.

finally, a few people have suggested constructing the system flow curve. i have no idea how to do that but am thinking i have to measure pressure on both sides of the pump. i don't see any place to insert a bypass or guage and i have to admit, soldering is my very weak suit. It takes me several times to get a joint that does not leak, although i can do it. I am not too excited about cutting into the loop to get a guage installed.

finally, someone said why not turn up the pump? my original goal was to determine the flow rate so i can put that number into the solar controller , and that flow rate is used to derive the btus produced. that is what i was after originally. the btu production of the solar array.

if i increase the pump speed to high, it seems to cycle the solar array off and on, whereas if i have it set on medium, the array produces enough heat to stay at about 125 all day without ever shutting off. this goes through a heat exchanger, heating an indoor pool

i have seen some great diagrams in other posts. is there somewhere you can point me to where i could make a diagram that someone besides me could understand? as you can surely tell, i am not a plumber...

thanks for all the questions. it has really made me think about this stuff and i believe i am learning
 
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Old 12-29-11, 09:01 PM
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Just for the heckuv it, as a mental exercise, I used that article I found and ran the numbers for 125 and 175 feet of 1/2' pex in parallel and plotted a system curve on a 15-58 pump chart...

Keep in mind that I did not include any of the common piping... this is ONLY the pex, and none of the head from any of the other pipes, fittings, etc... this added resistance would shift the curve toward the left, and a bit steeper.

OH... and this is for water NOT glycol!



The blue lines are the three speeds of the pump, the black line is a system curve for the tubings mentioned.

The intersection points are the flow which would occur at that pump speed.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 10:41 AM
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There are two must-have "bibles" for anybody who wants to get into flow calculations:

"Flow of Fluids Through Valves, Fittings, and Pipe," published by Crane Co.

"Cameron Hydraulic Data"

Both books have been around for eons and are available in various editions at Amazon. Best to buy used copies and earlier editions - brand new ones can be expensive.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 05:41 PM
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NJ Trooper
Just for the heckuv it, as a mental exercise, I used that article I found and ran the numbers for 125 and 175 feet of 1/2' pex in parallel and plotted a system curve on a 15-58 pump chart...
That approach is worthy of an honorary doctorate in mechanical engineering. Actually, it's worth more, because quite a few MEs probably couldn't have done it (but I could have, when I had higher energy and mental faculties, but then I ain't an ME).
 
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Old 12-30-11, 05:47 PM
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Thank Microsoft for 'Windows Calculator' ! It did take me a while to figure out the x^y key!
 
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Old 12-30-11, 06:23 PM
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Sounds good. How do I get to Windows Calculator? I'm running Windows 7.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 06:33 PM
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Start Menu,
All Programs,
Accessories,
Calculator.


Peter
 
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Old 12-30-11, 06:59 PM
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It's really nothing to rave about... just a little graphic calculator...
 
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Old 12-31-11, 04:54 PM
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i got it now. you solve for flow at different head values to make the curve for the pump. i have to brush up on my math skills. i haven't tried to solve an equation like that in years. thanks for your help.

one last question. can you tell me where i can get ( hopefully free) software or symbols to diagram this system so i will be prepared the next question i have to ask?
 
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