HTP Contendor

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Old 12-24-11, 02:25 PM
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HTP Contendor

I am not having any luck with wiring in the HTP Contendor MC99 heater. The wiring diagrams are vauge, i dont want to run a Vision controller, i have the main primary going right now with heat (P1) and i cant get my Zone circulator to kick in, the drawings provided dont help, has anybody done this install before, the local trades have no experience with this application.
I have everyhthing running, just no circulator response (P2)
 
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Old 12-24-11, 03:42 PM
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Taking a quick look at the install manual, it looks like running distribution/zone circulators must be done independent of the boiler, by thermostat and a relay. An extra set of relay closure contacts from circulator relay are wired to the low volatge pins 7 and 8. They apparently call a heat demand to the boiler.

So in other words, there is no way to run a zone circulator from that boiler.

Peter
 
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Old 12-24-11, 03:55 PM
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Look at Figure 30... what Peter is talking about... the two left hand schematics... the top left is individual relays such as the Taco 501 or the Honeywell 8845 ... the bottom left is something like a Taco SR series relay panel.

What did you wire P2 to ?

What you are calling your 'zone circulator'... you have one pump and electric zone valves? Tell us how you have the system piped.

Isn't the Vision controller built in and comes with the boiler?

[edit: After reading the manual I see now that the controller is optional... and I can't understand why you wouldn't want to use that... I mean, why buy a modulating/condensing boiler if you are only going to use is as a 'bang-bang' on/off boiler?]
 

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Old 12-24-11, 03:56 PM
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Thanks Peter, i kind of figured that was the case, when you look at the drawing in the manual "Field wiring diagram" Pg 54, it has on the low voltage side Thermostat connections. When i fired this unit up to the default settings, it was a no go, when i connected a standard thermostst to the T stat connections, it fired up, performed a full run cycle with P1 to the desired setting, it then idled within the setting range. I just dont understand why the T stat connection, what is that measuring?? it does not make sense, the onboard controller is measuring all the parameters, im just confused, i need a simplified solution to run P2
 
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Old 12-24-11, 04:05 PM
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If you are using zone valves and one pump, then you need the lower right in Figure 30.

P2 in the field wiring diagram is for a DHW (Domestic Hot Water) pump, if you are running an indirect water heater.
 
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Old 12-24-11, 04:28 PM
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dont understand why the T stat connection, what is that measuring??
The thermostat connections turn the system on and off in response to the room thermostats... how else will the boiler know that the home is calling for heat?

I'm not sure why the diagrams have those terminals in figure 30 labeled as:

"7 8"
"Low Voltage"

because those are the wires that should go to the thermostat connections on the boiler.
 
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Old 12-24-11, 05:20 PM
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So having said that, Fig 30, bottom left, i would run to a relay panel (zone controller), single zone configuration, T-stat to controller, P2 from controller, then what would be the purpose of having the existing T-stat connection to the boiler? would i be able to rid this connection now? I am not running zone valves, just one zone circulator, its a 4000 sq/ft shop with infloor heat
 
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Old 12-24-11, 05:38 PM
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then what would be the purpose of having the existing T-stat connection to the boiler?
You don't run the existing thermostat to the boiler when you use the relay. The relay passes the signal for a heat call through to the boiler. The wires labeled 7 8 in those diagrams runs to the t'stat connections on the boiler.

OK, one single zone, you wouldn't need the panel shown at lower left, that would only be needed for MULTIPLE zones.

You would use a single relay as shown at upper left. The diagram shows two relays, for two zones, and indicates to add more if you need them, but you only need ONE.

You run the t'stat for the area to the relay, and wire the zone pump to run from that relay as shown. The 'low voltage' wires from that relay would then run to the boiler t'stat connections to inform the boiler that there is a heat call.

Tell us how you have the system piped. Which diagram in the manual did you use?

There may be other options we can suggest if we know all the details of the installation.
 
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Old 12-24-11, 05:45 PM
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You've got tubing in the concrete floor then, right?

I hope that you used an "Oxygen Barrier" tubing... the stuff made for heating, NOT for potable water supply, right?

How are you controlling the temperature of the water that is feeding the tubing in the floor?
 
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Old 12-24-11, 06:28 PM
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Yes, i used red Pex, 1/2" Oxy barrier, 9- 210 ft loops, one 1 1/4" supply header, 1- 1 1/4" return header with ball valves on the return sides of each loop, Piped it to Diagram 1C, Primary is a grundfos 3 sp, secondary is the same, Drawing# 1C- space heating w/circulators.
 
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Old 12-24-11, 08:00 PM
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I don't know if the boiler pump output will handle two pumps, but theoretically anyway, you should be able to run the two pumps in parallel, both running at the same time... but unless you know for sure that the relay in the boiler that runs the circulator in the boiler can handle the current, don't do it.

Best bet is to use a relay as in the upper left of figure 30...

BUT... do you plan on sending 180 water to the floor? That's NOT a good idea... you really need to limit the temperature going to the floor in some way... and without the vision 1 controller, you have no way to do that. As I understand this boiler, without the vision controller, it's just like any other boiler... on/off with no temperature control other than the high limit. You don't want more than maybe 110-120 water going through that floor.
 
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Old 12-24-11, 08:23 PM
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Sorry, I lied... helps if I would fully read the manual before I open me yap.

To adjust the heater temperature simply press in the {S3} key for three seconds until you see a flashing (C) then an alternate value of (180). This number is the factory set point of the unit, which is 180 degrees. To change the temperature, simply push either {S1} or {S2} on the display. {S1} decreases and {S2} increases the heater temperature. The temperature of the heater can be set as low as 50 Degrees or as high 180 Degrees
So you are going to set to something no higher than 120 or so, correct?
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-24-11 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 12-24-11, 08:23 PM
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The onboard controller will allow user to set upper and lower limits, default is 180 F upper, it can go down to 50F, differential setting of 30F max. The owner manual does say that this boiler cannot be used as zone heating, it has to be piped primary/secondary, does make sense that way, then you are not thermally shocking the system or boiler. Say i didnt use shop for 2 days, turned the onboard controller down to 50F, primary continued pumping, i set the differential at 10F, so when the sensors onboard read 40F, it fired the cycle back to 50F, then went back on idle, So say on day 3, i come in and reprogram for 98F, now i am fully cylcling 6 gals fluid at 50 F to get to 98F (this would take a few Btu's and quite some time) where as primary/secondary system i can set at 98F continuously on Primary Loop , when a call for heat comes, then P2 kicks in off the P1 loop, then a gentle fluid mix is re entering the system on the zone return side which does not shock or cause "steamhammer" I guess a controller of some sort is required for my P2 zone, any recommendations from anyone? Taco, Tekmar, Honewell?
 
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Old 12-24-11, 08:30 PM
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When you say 'controller', are you talking about the relay to run P2 ?

Taco SR501 , Honeywell R8845 , any single zone relay that has at least one contact rated for power use to turn the circ on and off, and one contact set that will turn the boiler on and off.

Any one of these would work for that:

Patriot Supply -

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Fil...ry/102-169.pdf

http://customer.honeywell.com/techli...it/69-1292.pdf


Or did you mean something else?
 
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Old 12-24-11, 08:31 PM
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Yeah, something to run P2 thermostatically
 
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Old 12-24-11, 08:39 PM
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I'm confused... I thought we been there, done that?
====================================================
See figure 30 in the manual.

Upper left diagram.

Connect building thermostat to relay.

Connect circulator to relay.

Connect relay to thermostat connections on boiler.


When building thermostat calls for heat, relay operates and turns on P2.

Relay tells boiler that it needs to heat up.

=====================================================

For the relay you can use either the Taco or the Honeywell.
 
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Old 12-24-11, 08:50 PM
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Gotcha, i seen some installers on someother site directly run the Contender as the entire zone heater, no primary/secondary piping, does seem like an incorrect application, according to the installation manual, i will look for a relay next week.

Thanks fro your help
 
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Old 12-24-11, 08:51 PM
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Say i didnt use shop for 2 days, turned the onboard controller down to 50F, primary continued pumping, i set the differential at 10F, so when the sensors onboard read 40F, it fired the cycle back to 50F, then went back on idle, So say on day 3, i come in and reprogram for 98F, now i am fully cylcling 6 gals fluid at 50 F to get to 98F
No... I believe there is a misconception.

You only set the onboard control on the boiler ONCE, when you first program the boiler. You don't need to constantly program that.

That is what the THERMOSTAT in the building is for!

You set the building temperature with the THERMOSTAT, not with the control on the boiler.

Set the limit on the boiler to 120 ... NO MORE... you might find that 100 is even enough, so start there. Then just leave that alone and use the THERMOSTAT ...

When you leave the building, turn the THERMOSTAT down if you want... but realize that since radiant heat in a slab is slow to respond, you might not want to turn it down much at all. It's going to take some time to reheat the building.
 
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Old 12-24-11, 08:52 PM
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A lot of installers use the installation manuals as kneepads to keep their pants clean. They don't realize that you have to read the instruction!

Good Luck! Let us know how it works out.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 02:43 PM
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I just went down to my local HVAC shop, picked up a Tekmar D003 24V relay, hooked it up as per instructions, Bam, Rock and Roll!
First startup of the MC99, ambient outside temp/1600 Sq/ft shop slab at startup- approx 30F at 2 pm yesterday.
Set main boiler panel control to 160F.
Set thermostat to 60F
This unit has not shutdown since startup, slabheat is sitting at approx 50F and gaining approx 2.5 F per hr. Almost at TS set point.
P1 circulating at 120F
P2 Zone circ after tee header feed temp approx 95F
Return header temp approx 77F
I think im on the right track, i knew that the initital startup would take a while. 1600 sq/ft 4"-6" thick slab, 9 pex runs apprx 130ft long on 16" c/c.
NJ, what ya think?
 
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Old 12-30-11, 03:13 PM
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what ya think?
I didn't recommend the individual relay because I wasn't sure about your skill set with wiring stuff, the SR501 makes it easier... just hang the box and hook it up... but if you are OK with wiring an individual relay and done it safely, then that's fine.

Set main boiler panel control to 160F.
One thing that I don't think is OK is sending 160F water to a concrete slab... if I understand your settings, that's eventually what could happen.

This unit has not shutdown since startup...

P1 circulating at 120F

P2 Zone circ after tee header feed temp approx 95F

Return header temp approx 77F
If the boiler is circulating 120, wouldn't setting the boiler limit to a more reasonable number, such as 110-120 then allow the burners to cycle at this point? Once that slab comes up to temp, it will be possible to send hotter water into the floor... you don't wanna do that.

Everything else looks pretty good I think!
 
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Old 12-30-11, 03:29 PM
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Just waiting for the initial "T stat trip" then i will reset down to 125F, i just wanted to get the slab up to temp then i will play with it.
Tekmar D003- $19.00
4 wire LVT 16ft- $15.00
24V Trans $20.00
Overall i think it was affordable. If the TStat trips at 60F, P2 shuts down, P1 circulates till the boiler hits 160F, then goes into shutdown mode. My differential setting is at 30F right now. So when the boiler board see 130F, it will refire and got to 160F then repeat the procedure.
So how would the slab ever see 160F, by the time it gets a call for heat, P2 starts, by the time it gets to the manifold, it has to pass 2ft of slab temp piping after the close tee connection, then go through P2, then downstream of P2 another 6 ft of piping at slab temp, then to the actual manifold, would it not have time to mix before it hits the actual pex? (concrete)
 
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Old 12-30-11, 03:44 PM
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The SR501 or Honeywell 8845 are near the price of the individual components... just sayin'...

If the TStat trips at 60F, P2 shuts down, P1 circulates till the boiler hits 160F, then goes into shutdown mode. My differential setting is at 30F right now. So when the boiler board see 130F, it will refire and got to 160F then repeat the procedure.
Waitaminnit... When the tstat is satisfied, the boiler should shut down also. The boiler should not fire in the absence of a heat call from the T'stat.

How did you wire it?

I hope you didn't just put a jumper across the t'stat terminals in the boiler?

You should have wired the normally open contacts of one pole of the relay to the T T terminals of the boiler, and the other pole of the relay to turn P2 on and off.

If you allow the boiler to go to 160, you are out of the range of the 'condensing' also... why buy a condensing boiler if you aren't going to let it condense?

would it not have time to mix before it hits the actual pex? (concrete)
I'd kinda have to see it to be sure... but in any case, you said you will turn it back when the slab is heated... whether or not the slab will 'see' the full boiler temp doesn't really matter... why heat the water any hotter than you need it, and waste fuel?
 
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Old 12-31-11, 09:07 AM
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Well, it was not how i wanted it to cycle, i did the Tstat boiler connections to the N.O. pins on the Relay, when the Room Tstat tripped last night about 6 pm, the boiler does not power down, it will still will heat up to set temp, (160F) extremely rapid (because P1 and P2 is shut off) then idle down. It will go all the way down to room temp (50F) with no potential heat stored in the Primary Loop.

So i jumped the tstat connections on the boiler, disconnected from the relay,P1 starts, boiler fires to set point. then shuts down with the "potential heat" circulating between 160 down to 130F.
This is potential heat waiting for a Tstat heat demand. It took approx 45 mins to go down from 160F to 130 F at room temp of 50F for the boiler to call up the Primary Loop to go back to temp with P1 running (160F). I want this potential heat storage waiting for a call for heat do i not? When the primary loop is sitting at say 155F, Tstat calls for heat, i see P2 kick in, the loss from the primary to secondary instantly cycles to a return temp at the boiler of about 90F, then slowly gains about 6F per hr then the tstat will kick out.
 
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Old 12-31-11, 09:26 AM
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I need to look at your manual again... something isn't right. I do not believe that the boiler should sit there and idle at any temperature. When the TT signal goes away, the entire boiler should shut down and go cold. It should only fire up when there is a call for heat, in my opinion, until I verify with the manual...

I want this potential heat storage waiting for a call for heat do i not?
No... why? With the amount of water that stays in the boiler, let's just for ha-ha's call it one gallon, with the water at 160F... and let's say you draw heat out and cool that one gallon of water to 130F... as example.

Water is 8 lb per gallon. The relationship between BTU and amount of water is that it takes 1 BTU to heat 1 pound of water by 1F ... so let's do the math backwards:

160 - 130 = 30 difference.

times 8 pounds of water = a whopping 240 BTU of stored heat. You can't heat a doghouse with 240 BTU! Even if I've grossly underestimated the amount of water in the boiler, it still will not be more than 2-3 gallons... definitely less than 1000 BTU stored.

I'll be back after checking the manual... standby.
 
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Old 12-31-11, 10:01 AM
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I scanned through the manual several times... I didn't see anything in there that conclusively said one way or the other whether this boiler would shut down and go cold... or keep itself warm.

But, in my opinion, it makes absolutely no sense at all to keep this boiler warm all the time.

How much more money was the Vision 1 controller?

You did say that you are not heating domestic water, right? And that this boiler is dedicated to heating only the shop/garage area?

Do you have any connections to the DHW terminals on the boiler? They should be left OPEN if you are not making DHW.

I would suggest perhaps giving them a call and asking whether the boiler should fire and keep warm without a T T signal.
 
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Old 12-31-11, 12:48 PM
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DHW connections are not used, i have no provisions to tie in a indirect Potable Water Heater, only heating a shop slab 1600 sq/ft, gonna tie in a heated make up air mover in the future for proper air movement/discplacement. I will call HTP next week and see what they say, the way i see it, you either hold BTU value as "potential energy" or you have to do a serious "make up value" when the demand is required.
A heat cylce has just been completed.
T stat tripped at 50F, P2 shut down, boiler ramped to 160F,then shut down.
It took 3 hrs for the tstat to demand heat.
Call for heat, P2 started, boiler dropped to lower heat cycle demand within 45 sec (130F) all the way down to 98F, then idled up to128F within 4 mins, P2 cycled for another 45 mins to get to target temp, tstat tripped, P2 shut off, boiler ramped to 160F within 30 seconds, idled down, shut off. P1 continues to pump.
Like mixing injection in my house, P1 always circulates to keep the potential calls for heat on standby
 
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Old 12-31-11, 01:38 PM
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It still doesn't make any sense to me...

Like I said, the most heat that can be stored in that boiler is around 1000 BTU, and that will do absolutely NOTHING for you in the grand scheme of things...

But, it's working and you seem to be satisfied, so that's all that really counts!

Happy New Year!
 
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Old 12-31-11, 06:57 PM
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Well ,after i call HTP and see what they say for normal cycling specs, ill let ya know, till then, thank you for your input and have a good New Year as well.
 
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Old 12-31-11, 11:20 PM
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I have the same system, but with an indirect, in my home.

P1 is the primary loop pump. The other pump is your zone circulator. HTP refers to the DHW circulator as P2 which you don't have.

The easiest thing for you to do is have your zone circulator come on with P1. If the pumps are small enough you can wire them both to come on together via the P1 output.

In my case I'm using the SR501. The thermostat connects to the SR501. The SR501 switches the zone circulator and fires the boiler via the TT terminals. The boiler controls P1.

You've got the boiler shutting down on it's limit.

I can tell you my boiler will, when the thermostat is satisfied, shut down. Both P1 and the zone circulator shut down as well. It will not fire to maintain temperature. When a call for heat comes in, both P1 and my zone circulator start together. The temp drops a bit but within 30 seconds it's climbing to the set point. P1 and the zone circulator ALWAYS run together.

FYI - Odds are you have the Vision 1 controller but just need the outdoor sensor to make it work. Mine did.

Hope it helps.
 
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Old 01-01-12, 09:17 AM
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If the pumps are small enough you can wire them both to come on together via the P1 output.
That was my initial thought also, but not knowing the pumps and the ratings of the relay in the boiler didn't dare to suggest it... wouldn't want to burn up the relay in his new boiler!

Odds are you have the Vision 1 controller
I can't imagine buying this mod/con boiler and then NOT using the V1 controller... why not use the thing to it's full potential! Maybe if the sensors are not installed, the controller acts weird... but I would also think that it would 'throw a fault code' were that the case.

I can tell you my boiler will, when the thermostat is satisfied, shut down.
That's what I believe should be happening...

Thanks for your input! Excellent info...

Happy New Year!
 
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Old 01-01-12, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by NJ Trooper View Post
That was my initial thought also, but not knowing the pumps and the ratings of the relay in the boiler didn't dare to suggest it... wouldn't want to burn up the relay in his new boiler!
That's why I went with the SR501 to control the pump.

I can't imagine buying this mod/con boiler and then NOT using the V1 controller... why not use the thing to it's full potential! Maybe if the sensors are not installed, the controller acts weird... but I would also think that it would 'throw a fault code' were that the case.
No fault code. Without the sensor it just runs to the set point. With the sensor, it varies the set point to match demand. All it takes to hook up is two wires. He'd save a ton of fuel and have a much more responsive system.

Happy New Year!
Happy New Years to you as well.
 
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