running non-condensing boiler at lower temp - does it make it more efficeint?

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  #41  
Old 12-29-11, 01:54 PM
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Probably not the same brand, but even if not, it's the same thing, float type automatic air vent.

If that's a 'factory' installation point, then apparently the Repco has an 'air scoop' of sorts built into the boiler. Is the black cap loose to allow air to escape?
 
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Old 12-29-11, 07:39 PM
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the black cap is screwed on to the bronze part. it has a tiny opening on the side. underneath it there is something that looks like a tiny valve. the bronze part says 240F, 150 psi. is this some kind of pressure relieve valve? there is a more standard looking one on the side of the boiler though ...
 
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Old 12-29-11, 07:45 PM
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Usually that has a 1/2 " tapping. I wonder how they screwed it down in there.

I believe its a tapping for a built in air seperator. The weil mclains have them, as does my old Hydrotherm.

And yes I need to pipe the relief valve to the floor.


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Old 12-29-11, 07:49 PM
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After further review it looks like where the original pressure/temp gauge was. Makes sense that the only think that would fit the tapping is a airvent.

What ya all think of that?

Mike NJ
 
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Old 12-30-11, 05:10 AM
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I want to clarify one thing about the ES2. It does not have the injection tube installed like the MPO does. The ES2 uses a completely different idea. Most cast iron boilers have a laminar flow between the return tapping's and supply tapping's. This keeps a lot of the water flowing through the boiler from touching the iron and the flow varies dependent where you measure the flow in the section with the greatest between the nipple ports.
The ES2, Series 3 and ESC all the gas boilers with the IQ control system and utilizing the G3 block have baffles and dimples in the waterside of the boiler to direct water over the entire section and cause a turbulent flow. The baffles cause the water to cover the entire section with flow and the dimples (which are actually high points) causes the turbulence. For every pin you see in the flue pass there is a high spot, like the top of a mushroom on the water side. As the water churns around all the water touches the iron many times as it passes through the section. By getting more flow into the areas that normally get low to no flow will cause the water to get hotter but still leave the iron hot enough to keep from condensing in the flue passes even down to 110f return water temperature.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 06:15 AM
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Lawrosa
Bring it to code while you are at it.
The relief valve stem by code must always be vertical on a boiler, just put a street ell in the tee and mount the relief valve in the ell.
I would also be concerned with feeding cold water into the top of the boiler even though it should not be taking on water.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 06:34 AM
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here are couple of close up shots of that thing:



 
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Old 12-30-11, 07:30 AM
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I like the idea of 1% efficiency gain for every 3 degrees of reduced boiler temperature. That means the ES2 is up to 15% more fuel efficient at 130F as opposed to 180F. I suppose it would be interesting to run it for a week with the ODR disconnected to see if that's really so.

Even if it doesn't deliver the promised efficiency, the computer nerd in me likes the programmable aspects of the ODR. When it runs at the lower set point, you get a sense that the short bursts of heat are delivered just-in-time, and the boiler cabinet stays much cooler.

The key I think for good economy is, like with any fuel using device, buy the smallest unit capable of doing the job, while keeping run times to a minimum. This would conflict a little bit with a mod/con, because it seems in theory you would want to get an over-sized boiler so it can stay in condensing mode for as long as possible(?).
 
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Old 12-30-11, 07:47 AM
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i think the size doesn't have much to do with condensing more. the small unit should be able to run in condensing more, it might take a bit longer to come back from a setback though.

i think 1% for 3 degrees is overly optimistic. i'd think 1% for 10 degrees max. i hope i'm mistaken
 
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Old 12-30-11, 07:51 AM
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rbeck,

thanks for the explanation for ES2. it sounds like you like that boiler...

i looked at the ODR IQ card and it's $350 - seems it would take forever to pay off. i wonder if simply running it colder in shoulder seasons by adjusting it manually would give a bulk park of ODR savings?
 
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Old 12-30-11, 09:08 AM
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Probably. As long as you or somebody remembers to make the change at the right time, and your location has long cold spells. In Maryland we get some warm winter days, so hopefully the constant set point adjustments will give a cumulative advantage.

I looked at it as a package deal - the ES2 with ODR is still a good price for a replacement boiler.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 09:44 AM
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is this some kind of pressure relieve valve?
No... it's a 'float type automatic air vent' ... told ya that already!

http://completewatersystems.com/wp-c.../02/A-3101.pdf

The ratings are simply the maximums that the device is designed to operate at.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 09:51 AM
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adjust limit temp

I've fooled around with adjusting the high limit to a lower setting during "shoulder seasons". Works fine for heating, but when I get down below 150 degrees or so, my indirect hot water heater takes forever to get up to temp. Steve
 
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Old 12-30-11, 12:29 PM
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NJTrooper, since the top wasn't floating as you though first, I thought maybe it was something else
 
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Old 12-30-11, 12:36 PM
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I've fooled around with adjusting the high limit to a lower setting during "shoulder seasons". Works fine for heating, but when I get down below 150 degrees or so, my indirect hot water heater takes forever to get up to temp. Steve
This is an advantage with using ODR instead of just turning down the aquastat, as ODR controls override the ODR feature on a call for hot water.
i think 1% for 3 degrees is overly optimistic. I'd think 1% for 10 degrees max
I have also heard many different percent savings for every 10f of water change but nothing proved. It would not affect efficiency much on the cast iron boiler but would affect the fuel consumption.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 01:06 PM
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since the top wasn't floating
The float is inside... if you've ever fooled with a carburetor, or a terlet bowl, it's very much like that. When it fills with air, the float drops, the valve opens, lets the air out, water comes in, float goes back up, valve closes. That's why the black cap should be left loose so air can escape.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 02:19 PM
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the black cap has a hole in it, so it's actually screwed tight. i get the carburetor thing - makes perfect sense
 
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Old 12-30-11, 03:17 PM
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I've never used the B&G vents, but the ones that I've used also had a hole in the cap, and screwing them down tight closes the hole... you might wanna have a closer look at that. You need some way to 'shut off' the device in case it leaks or something... and that would be by screwing the cap tight.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 03:27 PM
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I installed the ES2 with ODR in my house. I have saved about 12% and keep the house warmer. Here are some of the changes made with the new boiler. Put the second floor on its own zone. It was not able to hold 70 degrees during the winter with the thermostat down stairs. It would be closer to 65. Replaced the direct fired water heater with an indirect water heater. Gave up the night set back and keep the house 70 24/7.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 05:06 PM
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With the setback to 62F at night (8 hours) the ES2 went through a couple of boost cycles in the morning to catch up, sending the boiler temp over 170. I'm experimenting with an intermediate thermostat setting to smooth the curve so it goes from 62, then 65 during the day, and then 70 in the afternoon/evening.

How much of the savings are from the new space heating, as opposed to the replacement water heater?
 
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Old 12-30-11, 05:10 PM
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There is no way to tell. I would think that most of the savings is from the energy saving features of the ES2. I don't think the cost of heating hot water is all that much for the entire year with either. I went with the indirect because of the questionable nature the vent on the old water heater was connected to the chimney. The low ceiling of my basement was an issue. If I didn't have that problem, I doubt I would have gotten the indirect. Probably would have been an upgrade when the other one wore out.
 
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Old 12-30-11, 06:07 PM
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I have the same thing happen Steve,
I generally can't gp much lower than 165-170.
Not at least until i decide which Tekmar control i want.

Peter
 
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Old 12-30-11, 08:29 PM
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Still trying to get intouch with this guy.

E mails have not worked.

Trying to find pricing and if he even sells to the public. IMO the product is something I would try before a ODR.

Anyone know pricing?

Exquisite Heat

Mike NJ
 
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Old 12-31-11, 10:32 AM
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He's not keen to sell to individuals... I can sorta understand his thinking, since the product requires 'packaging' to be installed... most DIY just want a box they can hook wires to. You would have to provide your own enclosure, etc in order to use it.
 
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Old 12-31-11, 02:34 PM
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So NJt, would you know who he sell to and how one obtains one of these devices?

Peter
 
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Old 12-31-11, 02:40 PM
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He should be able to direct a homeowner to someone that sells his product. That is the normal operating procedure for companies that don't deal directly with the public. Not sure this guy fits that mold.
 
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Old 12-31-11, 02:54 PM
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I'll give him a call next week... remind me if I forget.
 
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Old 01-06-12, 03:43 AM
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I'll give him a call next week... remind me if I forget.
Friendly reminder.


.
He's not keen to sell to individuals... I can sorta understand his thinking, since the product requires 'packaging' to be installed... most DIY just want a box they can hook wires to. You would have to provide your own enclosure, etc in order to use it.
20 Heathkits later..
I can do this.
 
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Old 01-06-12, 10:17 AM
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Yeah Trooper...... Bump.....LOL.

If the price is resonable I am willing to buy one asap.

Although I have a millivolt powerpile gas valve and not sure his device will work or I will be able to hook it up.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 01-06-12, 11:46 AM
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So my system kicks on as soon as their is a demand for heat. Even if the temp is over 180.. if it's over 190ish it seems like it does not kick on.

Say it's at 170 and there's no demand.

Thermostat turns to "heat on" I hear the circulator turn on and the burner also kicks on 15/20 seconds later. It then heats up to a few degrees below 200 and shuts off. circulator runs......it gets back down to 170 and process starts over...

When the demand for heat stops, it will let the temp drop below 170.

The real problem is sometimes... I'll have it set at 64, thermostat drops to 63, circ. kicks on, boiler starts up flame begins and 20 seconds later it shuts off because the therm sees 64 and says "ok done"

I can't believe this is efficient. The upstairs however does something different.

Upstairs:
The therm. will call for heat and the boiler does NOT turn on until the boiler temp drops way down, like below 150. The boiler will then heat to 190ish turn off.......and do the same thing.

Anyone have any insight into that? I do seem to have two big honey well boxes on the boiler, one for upstairs that is old and not digital and then a new one for the downstairs that is digital...
 
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Old 01-06-12, 06:07 PM
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If you want to learn more about the Exquisite Heat inventor, go here:

TMB - Phc News - Features: Nov/Dec 2006: Contractor of the Year
 
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Old 01-06-12, 06:07 PM
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What brand thermostats?

More characters.
 
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Old 01-09-12, 04:26 PM
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If you want to learn more about the Exquisite Heat inventor, go here:

TMB - Phc News - Features: Nov/Dec 2006: Contractor of the Year
Thanks for the link Xiphias.
That was interesting reading.

Two things stood out in mind after a bit:
Twenty nine units and counting are installed and beta tested right now.
AND:
Ruhnke is the licensing agent for Cockerill.
Granted that was written many years ago.
It seems like maybe he won't answer Mike's emails because,

A- Ruhnke controls the sales?

B- They are not interesting in making and selling the units.
They just want to get a TACO or other company to do it and sit back and collect fee's.

C- Least likely, It is still in Beta testing.


Peter
 
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Old 01-09-12, 06:09 PM
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Wow, that guy lives real close to me!! I should see if I can get him to come over!
 
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