Video of burner flame

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  #1  
Old 01-05-12, 12:44 AM
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Video of burner flame

Here is a short video of the flame in my boiler. Can you tell me if it looks normal.
Is the flame supposed to be licking the bottom of the boiler water jacket, I presume the flame should not contact the boiler surfaces. It seems to be leaving deposits. It is hard to see through the inspection port so I can't tell what it is.
Boiler is a NTI NY-151 with a system bypass set wide open to ensure the boiler return temp is as high as possible.
Burner is a Riello Mectron 5M downfired to a 0.85 80B nozzle from 1.00 80B. Turbulator is set to 2 per set up doc for the Mectron. NTI doc calls fo an 80 degree nozzle while the Riello doc calls for a 60 degree.
Draft is at -0.04 at the breech and overfire, measured through the inspection port, is -0.02.
I haven't come across a smoke spot tester yet but I set the air for 12% CO2 with my meter. Temp at breech is around 380 degrees F.
Outdoor reset is installed and thermostat is set to a cycle rate of 3. Temp in the house is an almost rock solid 68 degrees F with outdoor temp in low to mid 20's.
I'm concerned the deposits will harm the boiler, any way I can prevent the deposits? Such as a different size nozzle or spray pattern?
BurnerflameJan42012.mp4 video by billhillier - Photobucket
 
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Old 01-05-12, 05:08 AM
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Hello Bill,
Looks like a lot of fire.
Looks pretty good otherwise, but what do i know.
What is the boiler rated for?
Did you ever find out the oil pressure?
I know saves had you make the venturi, but we did the, by the book, neutral pressure point adjuster and it is woking too good, meaning we are a triffle positive on the draft. In a few weeks we will reduce it a bit. But my boiler sure is happy.
If you can, go for 0 draft over fire and -.01 up top.
12% might be a bit much until you get the smoke test.
Looks like a little dark soot in the vent picture.
I can't really see the deposits.

I'm using low sulpher diesel and things seem pretty clean.

380 might be a bit high, but i don't kow the room temp where the boiler is?
Or what the claimed efficiency is.
Right now i'm running about 330, air temp about 65+/-.

How many minutes a hour is it firing to maintain 68 inside with mid 20's out?
How cold does it normally get where you are?

Peter
 
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Old 01-05-12, 06:35 AM
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Flame should never touch anything. When you have impingement you will have carbon build-up which will cause the flame to deteriorate.
You need to follow the spec's for the boiler not the Riello manual.
Burner manuals are for retrofit burners and packaged units follow the boiler/furnace spec's which are supplied by the burner manufacturer's.
If the boiler is not to run with positive draft it is not a good idea to run positive as you are spilling products of combustion into your home.
What the heck is that thing that loos like it is made out of copper in the picture? It looks like it is in the combustion area.
 
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Old 01-05-12, 09:03 AM
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Hi Peter,
Not sure of the oil pressure, Rating on the nameplate is 151,000, a 1.00gpm nozzle=1.2 GPH firing rate while a 0.85 nozzle=1.0 GPH firing rate, assuming the pressure is right. Efficiency is listed as 87%.
Burner usually runs 5-10 minutes at each cycle time, set at 3, the burner runs longer at a cycle rate of 2 but then there is a temp swing in the house. Today at 19 F with the sun shining, 10 mph wind, the burner is only running 1-3 minutes at a time. Too short I think, how low do you think I could drop the nozzle flow rate to get the burner running longer and cou?
Average low temp in Jan/Feb is 10 F. I've seen temps as low as -10 F. Record low was -16 F back in 1994. I'll get the draft as low as I can, sometimes, even with the venturi mod, I still get so much draft that the regulator goes wide open.
Where do you think I should set the CO2 until I can get a smoke spot measurement? After about a month a very small amount of soot has built up on the sheet metal venturi that I added so maybe 12% CO2 is too high as you said or the short cycle time is the cause of the soot.
Thanks for the advice.
Rbeck,
The boiler spec for draft at the breech is -0.04, that's where I have been running it. There is nothing in the boiler manual about over the fire draft. The metal thing is a piece of sheet metal mounted behind the draft regulator acting as a venturi to reduce the draft, it is not in the combustion area.
The boiler manual lists burner settings for a Riello F5, My burner is a Mectron 5M and Riello lists different turbulator settings for the 5M, which setting should I go by? Turbulator for F5=3.0 5M=2.0 I believe my boiler came with the Mectron 5M but I can't be sure, boiler was here when I bought the house.
I didn't think the flame should impinge on anything and probably explains the buildup on the bottom of the boiler, Any suggestions as to how I can stop it. The burner is mounted level.

Boiler manual:
http://www.nythermal.com/pdfs/nyseri...tall_guide.pdf

Riello Mectron 5m settings:
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/...r/2da688ec.jpg
 

Last edited by imaddicted2u; 01-05-12 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 01-05-12, 12:37 PM
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Hello Bill,
11% might be more prudent until you can find out more info.
Also a W nozzle might be worth a try.

Peter
 

Last edited by PeterNH; 01-05-12 at 12:45 PM. Reason: add on
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Old 01-05-12, 02:52 PM
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I was able to find out that the original burner was a Riello F5 with an input of 1.35gpm, nozzle was 1.1gpm 80B. So the Mectron 5M is a replacement burner. It has .85 80B nozzle so should be firing at 1.0gpm.
What is the difference between the F5 and 5M burners.
Looking through some old nozzles that I found in the basement I found that there was a 1.0 gpm 60W in it at one point.
Is a 80W nozzle likely to stop the flame impingement on the bottom side of the water jacket as seen in the video posted below?
Would dropping to a lower flow rate nozzle help too? Given the short run times it would seem that my boiler is still oversized, even after dropping to the .85 gpm nozzle.
Assuming the 87% efficiency stated by the boiler manufacturer, The actual btu output for various nozzles would be:
Original:
1.1 gpm = 1.35 gpm input*140,000*0.87= 164430 btu/hr
Current:
.85 gpm = 1.0 gpm input * 140,000*0.87= 121800 btu/hr (net temp at breech is 320F)
Proposed:
.75 gpm = 0.9 gpm input * 140,000*0.87= 109620 btu/hr
.65 gpm = 0.8 gpm input * 140,000*0.87= 97440 btu/hr
Any suggestions would be appreciated, my main concern right now is to stop the flame impingement, any efficiency increase I can get would be a bonus.
 
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Old 01-05-12, 05:09 PM
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Patriot Supply - 0021-7012

Patriot Supply - T40

The Bacharach is a more durable tool, but the Westwood works fine for a few bucks less.
 
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Old 01-05-12, 05:20 PM
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The Riello is a burner that likes low to positive draft. Follow the boiler manufacturer's spec's which are set by the burner manufacturer.
That is not a good place for the venturi. It is acting as a scoop and could give odors as it pushes air toward the draft regulator. The plate should be about 12" above the boiler and the draft regulator a minimum or 18" above the boiler. The further from the boiler the better.
When the plate is installed properly you will close the draft regulator almost all the way and get a -0.02 draft by sliding the plate in. Then cut it off and screw it down.
http://comfort-calc.net/Resister_Plate.html
 
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Old 01-05-12, 11:24 PM
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Well, I was taught the value of a smoke spot tester today.
It turns out that my digital combustion meter has been gradually reading wrong.

I went to use it today and the battery was dead so i replaced it. The meter went through its set procedure, read 20.9 O2. However, when I pumped a sample through the meter it did not respond. So as I have made changes and not having a smoke spot tester for initial setup, I have relied on the O2, CO2 and excess air readings. Since the O2 sensor in the meter has been depleting the error has grown and I have gradually cut back on the air, making things worse. I cranked up the air a bit tonight and the flame is no longer licking the bottom of the boiler and the air shutter is pretty close to the Riello initial setup opening, I hate to resort to the eyeball method but that is all I have at this point, tomorrow I'll clean out the boiler again to get all the crap that has built up out of there and give it a good inspection.

You would think that this meter would be smart enough to alert that the sensor was going bad but it is not. I unplugged the O2 sensor, turned on the meter and it happily calibrated itself to 20.9 with no sensor present, that is just wrong, it should at least give an error.

Lesson learned, the hard way, Next purchase will be a smoke spot tester.

NJtrooper,
Thanks for the Patriot Supply link , I'm in Canada and the couriers have started nailing us with brokerage fees on shipments from the USA. I ordered a $12 part for my dishwasher and when it arrived UPS courier tried to charge me an extra $45 in "brokerage fees", I told them to shove it and did not accept the shipment. So i'm a little timid to order from USA now.

Rbeck,
This boiler was installed right next to the chimney and those dimensions will be hard to meet, not much room. Here is a pic of how the flue install was piped up. I'll look at moving things around to see if I can move the draft regulator up into the horizontal pipe but it will be tight. I might me able to mount the draft regulator right in the chimney, just above where the boiler flue enters, it looks like something was there before as it is cemented over. I just don't know if it was before or after the liner was installed, would that be an acceptable location if it is doable?



Thanks guys for your advice, sorry to be so long winded...
 
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Old 01-06-12, 08:35 PM
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I see another issue. First the manufacturer of draft regulators state they have to be 18" from the appliance. Second the pipe size cannot be reduced until you get to the chimney base. The draft regulator looks like it would be OK in the horizontal. I would not put it in the chimney.
Get it close to the chimney base.
 
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Old 01-07-12, 04:02 PM
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Thanks rbeck, After I cleaned out the furnace today, I moved the draft regulator up to the horizontal pipe and next to the chimney base.
 
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Old 01-07-12, 04:47 PM
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I'm in Canada and the couriers have started nailing us with brokerage fees on shipments from the USA. I ordered a $12 part for my dishwasher and when it arrived UPS courier tried to charge me an extra $45 in "brokerage fees"
I can't understand a lot of the U.S. regs, much less yours. But somehow, in shipping my eBay stuff to purchasers in Canada, I got the impression that if it goes from the U.S. via USPS (and thence via Canada Post, or whatever it's called), rather than UPS or FedEx, the brokerage fees on your end are avoided. I do know that shipments from Canada to the U.S. that go via your postal service are delivered smoothly, with no hassle on either end - of course, a Canadian customs form is attached to the package. I have a place in Canada from which I buy electronic parts, and deliveries are smooth, but you have to allow a extra few days compared to domestic U.S. shipments.

With the advent of the North American Free Trade Agreement, we see many, many Canadian freight trucks (and some from Mexico), plying our roads and highways. And I assume you see plenty of U.S. trucks - so somebody has figured out how to do it - maybe just not UPS or FedEx.
 
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Old 01-07-12, 05:45 PM
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Wikipedia had an interesting bit explaining this. It seems you can avoid the brokerage fees if you use UPS express services. Supposedly you can go to the cutoms office and get the package through customs yourself to avoid the fees.
 
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Old 01-07-12, 06:06 PM
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Drooplug - very interesting. What's the link to that Wikipedia article? Thanks.

Not familiar with Canada, but I'm not sure I'd want to traipse off to my U.S. customs office. The closest one to me here in the U.S. must be 100+ miles away. And how would I know my package was waiting for me there? Canada and the U.S. seem to be on different wavelengths here. What about NAFTA?
 
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Old 01-07-12, 06:15 PM
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It's not a NAFTA thing. It's a UPS thing.

United Parcel Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Old 01-07-12, 06:31 PM
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Something I find odd about this is the original burner was an F5 but the replacement is an M5. The Mectron series was replaced 10-15 years ago with the 40 series (F3, F5, F10, etc.). Sounds like someone replaced a newer series burner with an older one.

With the Mectron burners, once you go to a .75 or larger nozzle, Riello suggests a 60[SUP]o[/SUP] solid or semi-solid nozzle.
 
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Old 01-07-12, 08:04 PM
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@Grady, I checked the tag on the furnace, it actually did come with an F5, have you got any idea what makes the F5 different than the Mectron? My Mectron burner has a sticker on it from one of the local oil suppliers. I plan to drop to a .75 60W on the next nozzle change. Thanks for the info.

@drooplug, You are right, things shipped via USPS dont' get hit with brokerage fees. Many companies insist on using a courier service rather than mail. Amazon.com has started adding an "Import Fees deposit" to Canadian orders so I don't order from them anymore.
 
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Old 01-07-12, 08:15 PM
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The Mectron & 40 series use different air tubes & turbulators. Are you sure you have a Mectron? If you are going by the burner cover, the two are interchangable, I think.
If yours has a hydraulic jack to open the air shutter, I could tell for sure with a picture. The size & shape of the air shutter is also different.
 
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Old 01-07-12, 08:24 PM
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I checked the NTI website and they give Beckett nozzle sized=s but could not find nozzle spec's for Riello. They do specify the F5 burner. Riello nozzles follow the full spectrum of nozzles from 60 to 90 degree dependent on products.
 
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Old 01-07-12, 08:54 PM
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According to my Riello OEM spec guide, that boiler was originally equipped with an F5 with a 1.10 x 80[SUP]o[/SUP] 'B' nozzle @ 150 psig.
 
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Old 01-07-12, 09:38 PM
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It's a Mectron according to the label: .85 80B nozzle in it now.


Air shutter, hydraulic jack is removed due to repeated seal failures.


I posted Boiler manual and Mectron data below.
 
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Old 01-08-12, 06:45 AM
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I would not drop the nozzle size anymore. By code you can only drop 10% below the listed firing rate. You increase the chance of producing flue gas condensation when you start reducing the nozzle size too low. You also reduce thermal transfer from the flame to the water. The boiler has a certain amount of metal that has to be warmed up by the flue gasses and it takes a certain input to create enough flue gasses. If you drop the burn rate you reduce the amount of flue gasses and the temperature of the flue gasses will give off too much heat due to the ratio change between what we call fireside heating surface and amount of flue gasses. This will cause condensation.
The second thing that happens when you reduce the nozzle size is you are not filling the boiler flues with flue gasses so the heat leaves the boiler faster with less scrubbing of the iron. When an efficiency test is done due to lower input, ratio wrong of flue gas to fire side heating surface it appears you have done a wonderful thing where in reality you have not. Don't drop more than one nozzle size below the rating.
 
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Old 01-08-12, 08:29 AM
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That's a Mectron, sure enough. What's the purpose of the hose clamp around the air tube?
 
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Old 01-08-12, 09:33 AM
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Good eye, the hose clamp is to ensure the blast tube is reinserted to the correct depth when I remove the burner for cleaning. I don't remove the flange, I loosen the clamp on the flange and slide the blast tube out.
Does the air shutter setting look reasonable for a .85 nozzle?
I ordered this smoke spot tester today, UEi Combustion Analyzers
Got it for 88.31 and 22.88 international shipping to Canada via USPS, good deal I think and no brokerage fees. I ordered from Tequipment.NET the lowest prices for test equipment
 
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Old 01-08-12, 10:16 AM
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I kind of suspected that was the purpose of the clamp. It's hard to read the markings on the air shutter housing but my book calls for 3.7 & a turbulator setting of about 1.25 for a .85 nozzle at 145 psig pump pressure. I, like RBeck, am concerned about the amount of reduction in the firing rate for your boiler.
 
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Old 01-08-12, 11:19 AM
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The current air shutter setting is about 4.2-4.3, I guess the smoke test will get it where it really needs to be.
It gets confusing because different people have differing opinions on how things should be set up.
The Mectron 5M data sheet from Riello says air shutter at 4.2 and turbulator at 2.0
Riello Mectron 5M settings
I'm just wanting to be sure that I'm at a safe setting until I get my smoke tester.
Temp at the flue breech is 380F ambient air is 65F.
Here is a video of the flame after adding air to get the flame from impinging on the boiler and before I cleaned the boiler, there is no more flame impingement. You can see the deposits on the underside of the boiler a bit better in this video than the one posted earlier. The stuff glowing on the left and right looks bad but I was surprised to find it was a small amount of debris, not at all what I expected.
BurnerflameJan62012.mp4 video by billhillier - Photobucket
There was hardly any soot. There was quite a bit of deposits on the bottom of the tubes that the flame was contacting the underside of the boiler, there was none where the flame was not impinging. It was reddish and white in color. Laying on the top side was a bit of gray flaky scale, the tubes wall were pretty clean and the wavy metal strips inside the tubes had some buildup of deposits only where the flame was impinging. There was a small amount of scale in the bottom of the refractory. I expected the boiler to be dirtier than I found it so the flame wasn't impinging for very long. Anyway, I wire brushed everything as clean as I could get it and resealed with hi-temp RTV.
When the smoke tester gets here, I'll get set to 0 smoke and monitor the situation for a bit before deciding if I will go back up a step but based on your input I won't drop down any more.
 
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Old 01-08-12, 11:34 AM
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Your settings are correct. I was looking at the "actual firing rate" instead of "nozzle size" column.
 
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