VERY loud swishing noises in baseboard radiators after boiler servicing


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Old 01-20-12, 04:14 AM
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Exclamation VERY loud swishing noises in baseboard radiators after boiler servicing

My copper + fin baseboard radiators radiators had popping and little clanking sounds, minimal bubbly swishing. Kept having nightmares the pipes were bursting... Our utica boilers are from 1983. Saw that the pressure was in the 30's and drained some water hoping to reduce pressure. (we are new homeowners, 2 flat, 2 boilers, learning as we go). One boiler's pressure stayed at 0, while the other was rising into the 60's and we panicked and called a 24 hr heating cooling company on a Sunday and paid $85 for the 30 minute visit.

The guy explained :

our pressure relief valves (don't know the difference between that and a pressure reducing valve after reading this thread..) are the wrong kind (allow for 150 psi vs. 30).

Expansion tanks are too small ( we need a 30), need replacing

One of the feeders(?) had a blockage or was broken, need replacing.

We manually fed water into that one (he wouldn't do it, but allowed us to).

It looked like replacing the parts could be something we could dowith my handy dad, but dad felt uncomfortable doing this in case something went wrong. He referred us to a different guy he used.

Long story short, they replaced:
unit 1: expansion tank, pressure relief valve, air vent, feeder
unit 2: expansion tank, pressure relief valve, air vent

My dad gave him our check and I called the worker as I was not home. He said everything is good except that the feeder valve on unit 2 needs replacing as well as the water keeps leaking into the boiler a little but he didn't have the part then. He told me to turn off the lever (was on for 4 hours at that point). I asked if they relieved air from the radiators in the units and said there was no need, they did it all in the basement (initially they told me they needed access to the units so I arranged for it).

I came home and it sounded like little waterfalls in surround sound all over my apartment. It was very loud. The pressure on both boilers was about 24. I called and he blamed it on air getting into the system again because of the leaky feeder, and offered to replace it in the morning. I said we'd have to sleep elsewhere for the night as it's REALLY loud and I worried the pipes may get damaged. I was assured the pipes would not be damaged and after some convincing he sent a guy out to get the air out (in the basement boiler room). It did not help. He said they need 2 people for one to bleed the radiators while the other is bleeding the air in the boiler room. I offered to bleed the radiators while he did his thing downstairs but he wasn't responsive. we are up ALL NIGHT.

I plan to be very polite and to trust them, I just want to be educated.

Can there be anything else wrong in the system that could be causing this trouble? Could they have incorrectly fed the water back into the system (they did drain all of it)? Could this swishing around be doing any damage (I worry about sediment getting dislodged and causing a blockage, pipes getting distressed, etc...) Anything I should be on the lookout for?

The airvents look small and different and I want to know that they are working. How do I know if they are the correct ones? Do they come in different sizes/quality? The guy who came later said that the air vent can't handle all the air that's in the system now, but I think I may have heard a quick hiss only once while listening for it. I have no research to back up my suspicion of the air vents,, just an intuition/paranoia.

Any insight, expertise, or experience, would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks guys!!
 
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Old 01-20-12, 05:40 AM
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If you have bleeders at the rads by all means bleed them. Also the feed to the boiler that has the water off needs to be on if your blleding its rads.

The proper way is to inctrease the pressure while bleeding. It helps push the air out. Then restore the boiler to the 12 psi cold starting pressure.

I dont think the faiulty feed valve would cause your air issue. But water ever work he did introduced air into the system. The new air vents should get it out eventually but may take weeks. And again you will never get all the air out the ads unless you bleed them each individually.

Mike NJ


 
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Old 01-20-12, 11:44 AM
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thank you for the response! They are here now and "bleeding" the radiators. A little was not enough and so they are continually filling 3 cups at a time of water and spilling it out while the downstairs water feed is adding new water. You can here the spittle of air bubbles, the stream is strong and steady though. It's not like a little air is coming out and then water and then problem solved (I wish!). They've been doing it for 2 hours now. We have it looks like 2 loops in the apartment, each has a little valve for the bleeding. Any idea why it's not working? I will ask about adding the pressure.

Let me know if you have any other ideas. The water is coming out like a jet, and sometimes fizzles a little, but the problem persists, even though it is better.
 
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Old 01-20-12, 11:52 AM
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Your not going to get all the air out. It will take time of the boiler runing. As long as the water is circulating you should be good.

Then you need to insure your air purge vents are functioning and or properly placed.

If not they will not remove the air properly.

Also adding more make up water is adding more oxygen to the system.

Mike NJ
 
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Old 01-20-12, 12:12 PM
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Would it be alright to send you picture of the repairs if I'm able? Because I don't know if the air vents are properly placed or not. I am only taking their word for it. I did look around online and saw that usually the vents are above teh expansion take, sitting atop an air seperator.

THe way they did it is they have a pipe leaving the expansion tank, and another one branching off to the air vent. My repair guy claims this is the same physics behind it, that the water can move sideways into the expansion tank while the air will take the up route where it branches off and escape out the air vent.

I hope that I'm able to post a pic. I'm frustrated but giving the workers the benefit of the doubt as to not stress anyone out.. staying polite They are here working on it. Just doesn't seem super effective and I'm suspicious that their approach is flawed.
 
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Old 01-20-12, 03:42 PM
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To post pics:

FREE account at Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket , upload pics to a PUBLIC album. Come back here and post a link to your album.
 
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Old 01-21-12, 03:13 AM
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when it gets light out, i'll take some photos..

it's 4:30, and I'm being woken to that sound again like the toilet is running in my bedroom, though it is MUCH better than the first night after their first repair work, before they came back to bleed the system. From what you say, it seems that bleeding the rads will be a good start, and the boiler (air vents I assume) will take care of the rest. however in this case bleeding the rads made it almost entirely silent, and as time progresses the swishing is steadily creeping back in (it's been over 12 hours since they bled the rads in the apartment)

My gut feeling, which may have more basis since I first had it, is that the air vent in the boiler system is not working properly /is not installed for efficiency/ is not the best quality… something.. When they left the rads were very quiet, after a long time of bleeding. They did jack up the heat I guess to create more pressure during bleeding at the time. Now it is set to 68. Maybe 5-8 hours later (?), i heard some minor swishing in the front loop, just ignored it. Now, more than 12 hours later, the running water sound is creeping back in when the heat kicks in, BOTH loops. Enough to wake me up and cause my guy to toss and turn. It's like sleep apnea

I have a few questions.

1. How can I test that the air vent is releasing air? Any way I can observe it?
2. Have you heard of people not using an air separator that the air vent sits atop, but diverting the air in a different manner with pipe arrangement? Any possible benefit/ disadvantage to one over the other?
3. Are there different qualities of air vents? This one is about $8, a 1/8th watts air vent.
4. Could water be leaking out of the system and creating air gaps in the loop? If so, where would it be going? What could be failing? If there was a leak in the walls, would I know?
5.What else could cause that a quiet system gets noisy/swishy as time passes within a 24 hour period? Note that both loops are similarly swishy, and both loops seemed silent for a prolonged period of time when they left.
6. If I turn down the heat at night, that water molecules shrink, right? Where does that air escape when the bleeder valves are not open on the rads? Does it create some vacuum??? Or is that taken care of by the air vents downstairs?
7. Are the 2 loops upstairs sealed off somehow so that they are happy and not contaminated by new air entry? If so, at what point? What could be failing?

Thank you for any insight/ ideas. It feels so much better to understand. I'm a new homeowner and open to learning, but I'm learning everything at once. It's a privilege to have this resource.




(Here it goes again btw, I'm in a room where the 2nd loop is heating the room, my bedroom is on a separate loop).
 
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Old 01-21-12, 03:17 AM
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Question

From what you say, it seems bleeding the rads is a good start, and the boiler will take care of the rest over time. in this case, bleeding got them entirely silent (nothing I noticed) for a good chunk of hours, and as time passes the swishing has been creeping back in. it's been 12+ hours since the bleeding took place.
 
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Old 01-21-12, 05:57 AM
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1. The way to test the air vent is to listen to it. If you push the schrader valve on the top it should release water. IKt could be faulty and not releasing any air.
2. The air vent shouls be in a vertical position off the top of the air seperator. If you have someting else that could be the issue. We need to see it.
3. I think they are all the same but I like the taco ones
4. There could be a leak. A way to test is to turn off your water feed to the boiler. And watch an see if you lose pressure. Its best to do with the boiler off and not firing or make sure you watch the boiler very close if you fire it. If you lose to much water bad things happen.
5.air can be getting sucked in a air vent. I dont have exp there but read that it can happen.
6. The expansion tank takes up the exp and contraction of the water. The air vents let the air out as the system circulates.
7. How many t stats?


Its probably something simple. we just need pics. It makes it easy when it can be seen.

Just to ask did someone comeout and service the boiler? Sounds like you have maintainance people from your post. Apartment?

Mike NJ
 
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Old 11-26-13, 06:26 PM
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2 years later, radiators still loud :) are you guys still around?

Hi! So as a young new homeowner that felt overwhelmed with all the diy I had to do immediately upon purchasing my 2 unit home, I really appreciated your responses almost 2 years ago to my noisy radiator problem. Basically my rads were and still are making swishing noises and I'm not sure my system is set up right to purge the air as it should.

Here's an update. The repairs made to the system got rid of the clanking hammering sound, but the swishing of the water and gurgling is still loud and present. Since the original guy, I've had another heating/cooling guy come because the first guy was unavailable, and he was just dismissive of the sounds after not being able to get rid of the air. He even asked me if a pea under my mattress would bother me. I think he was a little hard of hearing, as his young apprentice gave me a reassuring look that I wasn't crazy. (and anyone that knows me would not call me a princess. I get my hands dirty every day at work, etc..)

Because 2 people brushed off my concern, I guess I felt stupid to ask a third. I got a little used to the noise, but I still wake up when it comes on, so often I sleep with cotton in my ears. Recently we had guests spend the night, and they asked us about our radiators because they kept waking them up.

I'd like a permanent solution to my problem. If I upload the photos, are you still here on this forum to give me your advice and offer your expertise?
 
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Old 11-26-13, 06:47 PM
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Yes we are here....... Please post pics,

Probably so simply its stupid..............Im surprised you made it this long...
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 11-26-13 at 07:04 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 11-26-13, 06:51 PM
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Still here.... load the pics and let us have a look see.

Take pictures of EVERYTHING boiler related. Don't skimp. Best to upload to photobucket as the forum will shrink the pics. Please use a real camera if you can, cell phone pics 5uck.

CLEAR, IN FOCUS, WELL LIGHTED, LARGE ENOUGH TO SEE!

Take several from a distance to give us the big picture too.
 
 

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