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Old 02-13-12, 04:28 PM
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breaking free old threads

My boiler system was installed 15 years ago. I am about to replace the Taco 007-F5 circulation pump for the first time. The pump has begun making noise when more than one zone is open, so I figured I'd replace it before it fails. In an earlier thread I was advised to change the orientation of the pump. It hangs down vertically, rather than being mounted horizontally. You folks told me this and now I see it in the install directions from Taco. I assume all I have to do is rotate the flanges 90 degrees. They are threaded so I assume I just use a couple of pipe wrenches and rotate them. Is it that simple, being careful, etc. or what do I do? Thanks
 
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Old 02-13-12, 04:32 PM
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Not sure I understand why the pump is making noise when more than one zone is open... that's kinda weird. But maybe has something to do with improper mounting.

You must have posted pics earlier if we commented on them... can you drop a link to the pics again?

Never mind... found it:



No, you don't want to rotate those flanges. You will cause problems. There may be another solution.

You can purchase a pump with rotated flanges... like this:



stand by and I'll get ya some info.
 
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Old 02-13-12, 04:44 PM
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Hmmm... this PDF shows that the 007-F5-5 is the model with the rotated flanges, but it also shows that the flange to flange distance is 6" versus 6-3/8" on the standard pump.

http://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/Fil...ry/101-029.pdf

I can't see the piping to the left of the pump to tell if you will be able to pull in the piping to make up that 3/8" or not...

Take another pic?
 

Last edited by NJT; 02-13-12 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 02-13-12, 05:03 PM
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I'm gonna suggest a different pump:

Grundfos 15-58FC

Follow the directions to remove the 'internal flow check' before installing. (easy)

This is a 3 speed, run it on high (medium might be OK too).

This one is 6-1/2" flange to flange and should bolt right in. The flanges are oriented for your application

Patriot Supply - 59896341
 
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Old 02-13-12, 06:53 PM
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Keeping it simple

OK As I age I wonder about doing it 100% verses do it well enough. What if I just replace with the exact same and get another 15 years out it the next one? I am happy with 15 years. Plus, if I don't change the orientation, then I'll not replace it now. Instead, I'll just keep a spare for when and if it does finally quit. Maybe it will go another 5 years as is.

After all, my old man logic is if I got 15+ years out of it mounted wrong, just do it again and get maybe another 15 years. Is this so wrong?
 
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Old 02-13-12, 07:14 PM
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I actually like the way you think! Sure, why not?

I might be tempted to turn it so the motor is UP though, as that orientation is 'OK' with Taco as long as the pressure stays high enough. In any case, it would have to be better than the completely disallowed alternative, right?

Backing up a bit... if you did want to turn the flanges, I would take it apart... remove the flanges from the nipples, and maybe remove and replace the nipples themselves, start with some fresh pipe dope and reassemble. Your chance of having no leaks would be diminished I think.
 
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Old 02-14-12, 07:06 AM
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Close Nipples won't crush?

That was my initial thought. Remove the old nipples and install new. Then I wondered if those old ones would removed without breaking.

If these old threads would hold up to the wrench then I would remove the flanges, clean the threads with a brush, re-dope them and install the new flanges. If not likely then I'll just install the new Taco as the old one. My pressure is only 13-15# so an upside down may be worse.

Maybe I should not worry about the pump noise. It is quiet except when two or more zones are open. Maybe the sound is just fluid movement and I never noticed it before. I'll monitor the noise for a while and see if it worsens.

Thanks for the help
 
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Old 02-14-12, 09:16 AM
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Not sure I understand why the pump is making noise when more than one zone is open... that's kinda weird.
When additional zone valves open, the flow through the pump will increase - maybe that causes the noise?
 
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Old 02-14-12, 02:42 PM
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You would probably not have too much trouble with the right side flange, being that it's all steel there... but that one on the left, you would have to be VERY careful that you didn't put any torque on the copper pipe... I think you would be better off to cut the pipe back and install an isolation flange instead.

There's many variations of these, this one has a 'swivel' flange for simple alignment:


image courtesy plumbersurplus.com
 
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Old 02-14-12, 03:42 PM
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wouldn't it be simpler to just rotate pump 180* or is the wire too short?
If the pump is making noises it could mean bearings or impeller.
you said it made noises when only 1 zone is open, not when all are open correct?
 
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Old 02-14-12, 03:53 PM
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wouldn't it be simpler to just rotate pump 180* or is the wire too short?
The wiring should be easy to lengthen, if necessary. But, the "motor-up" position requires a minimum of 20 psi system pressure. A horizontal position, based on Taco literature, seems to be preferred.
 
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Old 02-14-12, 07:05 PM
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I've puzzled from time to time over the reasons that Taco has their 'rules' for mounting the pump.

Most likely reason not to 'hang' the motor is undue stress and wear on a thrust bearing/washer.

The only reason that I can come up with for the 20 PSI 'rule' is that when mounted motor up that there is more susceptibility to pump cavitation... why else might they spec a minimum pressure? Maybe I'll "Ask Taco" !
 
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Old 02-14-12, 07:28 PM
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Troop,
When I asked that question eons ago, I was told that the 20# would ensure the motor cartidge is sealed against the gasket. Personally, I don't think it takes that much pressure but that's just my opinion. If I see one in the field mounted motor up, I advise the customer of Taco's official line. Most of the time I'm ignored but I've covered my tail. Please sign here.

In Jewler's case, my crystal ball shows a torch or two hammers & a new flange. That cast will crack pretty easily.
 
  #14  
Old 02-15-12, 11:22 AM
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I'm settling for as is

After all the good advice I've decided to leave the system as is. I have a replacement Taco sitting on the sidelines. When the pump finally dies I will put the new one in as the old one comes out. If the pump life is shortened by being mounted hanging down, so be it. I am plenty happy with the length of the shortened life.

If I am really bored at some point between now and when the first pump dies, I will do what it takes to set the flanges at the correct horizontal position.

Your advice has been very helpful, but not enough to convince me to jump into changing what has been working for the last 15+ years. But now I know what to do if I decide to make it right.

Thanks to all....
 
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Old 02-15-12, 02:06 PM
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OK, here are my theories about the mounting positions:

With the motor housing pointed upward, the rotor internals will be a dead-ended space for air to become trapped - this could cause noise or possible overheating (since the rotor internals and bearings need to be fully immersed in the fluid for cooling and lubrication). Jacking up the system pressure will reduce the trapped air volume and probably increase the opportunity for the air to be absorbed in the fluid and ultimately ejected from the system.

With the motor housing pointed downward, any sediment will tend to collect on top of the rotor cartridge, and foul the bearings that are exposed to the water - leading to noise and bearing failure.

That leaves pointing the motor housing horizontally, which is the preferred arrangement.
 
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Old 02-15-12, 02:15 PM
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I got an answer from the fine folks at Taco, and it seems we were all at least partially correct:

In terms of not having the motor hanging down, your guess is absolutely correct. With the motor hanging down, the bearings will be working extra hard to thrust the impeller up, and this can significantly reduce the life expectancy of the pump. Also, with the motor in the down position, the bearings may make noise, as they were not designed to function in that orientation. Many noisy pump calls are explained by a downward hanging motor.

When it comes to having the motor pointing up towards the ceiling, there is a little more leeway. Because our 00 series circulators are wet rotor pumps, they rely on system water constantly circulating through the cartridge to both lubricate the bearings and keep them quiet. What this means, ultimately, is that we need to make sure system fluid can not only enter the cartridge, but also fill it up all the way. When the motor is horizontal, this is not a worry, as water can enter and fill the cartridge easily. When the motor is in the vertical up position in systems with less than 20 psi, the cartridge might not fill all the way, leading to a situation where the life of the cartridge may be shortened and the pump may be noisy. When there is over 20 psi in the system, we are confident that the cartridge will fill all the way, eliminating the chance of a problem.
Mystery solved! Thanks Taco!
 
 

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