Hi,

I got a new boiler installed in December 2011 and ever since then, we have not been able to adjust the house temperature using the thermostat. The thermostat worked fine before the boiler was installed.

Here's the type of boiler that was purchased:

Slant/Fin
Intrepid Oil-Fired Water & Steam Boilers/No. 2 Oil

The installer has brought in a few people to troubleshoot the issue and they are not able to determine a resolution. They have suggested that I move the thermostat to another part of the room but my argument continues to be that things worked fine before the new boiler was installed!

Could this be a wiring issue? My cousin had a similar problem with her gas boiler and her problem was an auto/manual switch was set to the wrong setting. Could this also be my problem?

Please advise ASAP! I am spending a lot of money on oil because the boiler is running all the time. The only way to control the heat is to switch the boiler emergency switch to the OFF position.

Thanks,
Shelly

 

Seriously? They had to bring in a whole team to troubleshoot this?

Is the system STEAM or HOT WATER ?

What's the full model number?

There's only one thermostat in the home?

 

Hi! Yes! There were 4 guys here trying to figure it out! They failed and I'm beyond frustrated!

It's a Slant/Fin Intrepid Model No TR-30PT. It's a HOT WATER system and there is only ONE thermostat.

THANKS!

 

I've gotta ask you some more questions now, starting basic:

On the front of the boiler is a gray box, says Honeywell on it. That is your 'aquastat'.

You probably should shut off the switch to the boiler before you take the cover off. I'm sure you've seen the cover off already when the guys were there. There is one screw that you may have to loosen, and the cover should slide straight off.

Inside that box are terminals labeled ' T T ' or depending on the model, ' T TV ' . (I believe yours will be T and TV, but it is possible there is a different aquastat installed. Tell us what model aquastat you have.)

The two wires from your thermostat should be wired to those terminals. Are they?

 

Does the circulater come on when there is a call for heat?

Whats are the temp and pressure at the boiler gauge?

Geez did they even give you a new t stat with the boiler?

Check the directional arrow on the circulator. I have seen many newer installers install them backwards. This will cause the flow to go the wrong way through the boiler.

Try to explain the exact symptoms.

It could be other things but thats a start.

The pros will be along soon.


Mike NJ

 

Your boiler model indicates that this is one with a 'tankless domestic water heater' installed, so I believe that it's safe to assume that you are also heating your domestic hot water with this boiler?

And the old boiler did the same?

Inside that aquastat box there will be three dials.

HIGH, LOW, DIFF

Tell us what they are set to.

Do you have a decent digital camera? If so, we may ask that you take some photos at some point, but let's get started with the questions first.

For other's reference, here is the manual for Shelly's boiler:

http://www.slantfin.com/images/stori...epid_tr_40.pdf

I believe that we are going to find that the installers did not install a flow check valve and since the boiler is always warm to produce domestic hot water, without the required flow check the system is 'ghost flowing' and overheating the house.

 

"I believe that we are going to find that the installers did not install a flow check valve and since the boiler is always warm to produce domestic hot water, without the required flow check the system is 'ghost flowing' and overheating the house."

That is brilliant! It sounds exactly like what is happening!

Yes. The boiler heats my domestic hot water. And yes. The old boiler did the same. Yes, I have a decent camera so I can take any pics that you need. I will also check out what you needed me to check on your other post.

 

Thanks, but I can't take the credit. Those valves were invented probably centuries ago! If your guys don't know this, they have no business doing what they're doing.

Shelly, you will need to set up a FREE account at Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket and upload the pics there. Come back here and post a link to your PUBLIC album for us to view.

Follow the pipes out of the boiler in the photos. We are looking for a 'gadget' that is a 'flow check' valve. There are several different types, so just look for gadgets in line with the piping.

I don't know if this link will work, but if it does, look at these pics to get a general idea of what we're looking for.

https://www.google.com/search?q=flow...JqjX0QGO27HbBw

Make sure to stand back and take several of the whole system in addition to any close shots.

Please make sure in focus, well lighted, and large enough to see details.

 

In regards to lawrosa's questions...

When we turn off the emergency switch and then wait a few hours, the boiler does kick back on to heat up the house after we flip the switch back on. The emergency switch is the only way that we can adjust the temperature in the house. Trying to use the thermostat does not appear to work. In fact, it seems to get hotter if we do try to turn down the heat using the thermostat. The temperature climbs uncontrollably and the only way to stop it is to turn off the emergency switch.

NO! WE DIDN'T GET A NEW T STAT!

Please let me know where to check the directional arrow. I'm below the novice level when it comes to boilers!

Let me know if you need further explanations.

Thanks so much!

 

Hi - I already have a photobucket account. Here's the link to the new album that I've just created:

http://photobucket.com/slantfin

Let me know if you need more pics taken.

THANKS!
Shelly

 

Well, I see the flow control device giht next to the expansion tank. I don't quite understand what all that goop on top is doing.

 

Your guess is as good as mine! I would assume that white stuff is caulking. Would all that excessive caulking cause it not to work correctly?

I do want to add that the installer did have to replace the flow control device after he had installed the boiler. Maybe he had left the old one on there. Don't know.

 

Trooper is not on line but it all looks ok regards to piping.

The weight in the flow check could be stuck. Did the guys that came out check it? You probably know that its the device next to the expansion tank and air seperator.

That knob on the top should be turned all the way in. You may want to turn the screw out all the way then back in. There is a stop so dont worry about the knob turning out completely.

On the pump housing there should be an arrow. It should be pointing down. It looks correct from the pic though.

You need to hold the up and down buttons I believe to read what the settings are on the aquastat.

Post them here.

I believe this may be the aquastat.

http://customer.honeywell.com/techli...69-1720EFS.pdf

( Sorry for the link Trooper.)
[why? there's no problem linking to the Honeywell site! -NJT edit]

Mike NJ

 

Bummer... yes, there is a flow check.

It could be stuck open as mentioned, and I know this is a long-shot, but check to see that the knob on top is fully clockwise. ( I think that's correct... ) If it's turned the wrong way, the disc is held open.

Yeah, that goop is a mystery. Maybe the guys took it apart for some reason? I wonder if it's all gooped up inside as well?

 

My husband watched him as he installed the flow check valve. He said that he put some white thread tape on to prevent leakage and then he put some white stuff with an applicator on the thread tape. After that, he put the valve back together. He did this on the top and bottom.

How do you check to see if the knob on the top is fully clockwise? I'm assuming that you mean the knob on the top of the flow check valve. Do we need to use a special tool to check that?

I also tried to press the buttons to read the thermostat setting. Nothing worked when I single pressed each button but when we flipped the emergency switch back on, the first number climbed up to 180 (which I assume is the water temp). The second number looked like a degree symbol indicating that it's set to fahrenheit and the third value said 7H.

 

I see watts flow check leak at the stem all the time, even new.
I bet they put teflon dope up there to stop it, and I also bet that the valve is in the open position (which can be used to allow circulation if there is no pump or power for those who wanted to know why it's there).

The watts version have a few turns before it lifts the weighted check off it's set. Not sure about the Taco version. Having the watts fully clockwise can limit flow.

We need to know if that little black circulator starts and stops when someone adjusts the stat.
You should hear a relay in the aquastat box click when the stat calls for heat and breaks the call.
If you don't hear that click (power needs to be on) then its electrical.
See if you can rustle up a buddy and have then operate the stats back and forth.

 

Hi - I just did a very interesting thermostat test. The room temperature displayed at 72 on the thermostat and I had set the temp to 68 degrees. When I changed the 68 to 90, the boiler did come on. When I changed the 90 back to 68, the boiler turned off. So, I guess there isn't an electrical problem.

If you let us know how to check the value, we can do that. I'm sure a special tool or something is required to turn it.

 

From taco.com site. And as Trooper metioned.
The bypass knob should be turned clockwise all the way for normal operation.

For bypass mode, turn the knob counterclockwise until you have reached the position desired.

Turn the knob with your fingers. You want it all the way clockwise. I would turn all the way CCW then back CW all the way.


Mike NJ

 

My husband noticed that the knob was turned all the way CW (it was in the closed position). He turned it CCW until it was open all the way and then he turned it back CW until it was closed again.

 

Sounds like thermostat is at fault.
Check for loose wires.
Does it have batteries?
If it does, change them and look for a reset button somewhere.


Peter

 

We've already tried two thermostats. The one with the dial and the digital one that requires batteries. None of those work.

Where should we check for the loose wires? Im assuming you mean the wires that hook to the thermostat. Those are not loose because, like I said, the installers set up both thermostats. The batteries in the digital one are fairly new. I'm not sure if there is a reset button on the digital but I can check that tomorrow.

FYI, the digital is the Honeywell RTH7500D Conventional 7-Day Programmable Thermostat. We have that one set up right now because it is the one that I prefer to use.

 

You can assume it working if the boiler kicks on when you set the t stat 1 degree above the displayed temp and off at 1 degree below the set temp. Try that and let us know.

All programing off right?

So your symtoms are the house gets warm on no call for heat from the t stat, T stat at 68 but the radiators or basebords are warm and its 72 in the home, correct?

If the flow check is working I wonder if the wiring is wrong somehow and the circ is coming on during a low limit call for DHW.

Is it silly to try? IDK. Turn the stat all the way down and run hot water. When the boiler kicks on does the circulator run? It should not.

I am not a wiring guy and dont even know if its possible but worth a try. Otherwise the flow check would seem faulty. But what did the techs say when they left? All was good? They still own it and should find and repair the issue IMO.

Mike NJ

 

Hello,
Can you please verify the above statement.

1- If it's set for 68 and the boiler is off, does it stay off?
1a- See Mike's post about hot water.
1b- when the temp dops below 68, does the boiler turn on?

2- If you have to turn it up to 90 to get heat, when it is 72 in the room.. then i'm thinking the boiler will not stop runninng until the house gets to 90?

More later.

Peter




2

 

Hello,
Have you done the exact test TOHeating asked for?

We need to know what hapens.

Peter

 

Could the thermostat and aquastat wires be mixed up on the "TT" terminals. As I noted the color of the wires on TT were not the same in another pix of thermostat wires. Just a wild guess.
Sid

 

Hi - I'm unavailable to look at this until this evening. I'm at work right now. I will check everything that was asked for since last night and I'll respond later on. Thanks!

 

In response to Mike's questions...

The temp was set to 75 and I set the temp to 76 and after about 15 seconds, the boiler did kick on. Excuse my dumbness but what is the circulator and how do I know it's running when the boiler kicks on? I'm in my living room right now and I do hear the boiler running. Would I need to go down to the basement to see if the circulator is running?

Is the circulator what passes the water thru to the baseboards in the house? I did hear a popping noise in the baseboards when I turned up the heat.

I set the temp 1 degree under the displayed temp and the boiler did go off right away so I guess that's good.

What is happening now is the temperature is way above what I have it set to now (68) so the only way it'll go down to 68 is if I turn off the emergency switch off. The boiler will continue to kick on every 10-15 minutes for 5 minutes at a time. My husband had timed this the other day.

I have the thermostat on manual hold at 68.

YES! Like I said, the house will continue to get warm even if I have the degree set way under the house temperature.

I put the temp on 40 and then turned on the hot water. The boiler didn't kick on while the water was running and it was pretty hot. It kicked on about 1 minute after I turned off the water. And there was no popping sound coming from the baseboards.

The techs kept giving me lousy excuses regarding the thermostat being installed in the wrong place in the house. So, they left saying that they have to come back and move it and then it'll work. The installer wasn't too convinced though since he understands that everything worked before the new boiler was installed. The installer knows that we are still having a problem but I figured I'd reach out to you guys to get some ideas on what may be happening. I'm planning to share all of these ideas with the installer when I talk to him again soon. Because I honestly believe he is clueless!

Thanks!

 

Your thermostat is working just fine. There is no reason to move it.

The popping you heard in the baseboards was expansion noise. When the hot water flows through, they expand and make noise. NORMAL (unless it is loud enough to wake you, then something is wrong... baseboards poorly installed.)

The circulator is a water pump. Yours is black in color. It's on the pipe leading to the bottom of the boiler. They are generally so quiet that it's difficult to tell if it's running or not, especially with the oil burner firing right next to it. Sometimes you can feel a vibration. You could put the blunt end of a screwdriver to your ear, and touch the pointy end to the pump and use it as a crude stethoscope. (duuuh... don't mix up the ends! )

If you aren't using domestic hot water, there should be no reason that the boiler fires up every 10-15 minutes like that. If no hot water is being used, and the boiler still fires that often, it's pretty clear that there is GHOST FLOW going on, and taking the heat from the boiler into the home, cooling it off and requiring it to run to replace the heat in the boiler.

I believe they may have the settings whacked out. (but this isn't the reason for the problem, it might save you some fuel though) We need to know what the HIGH LIMIT, LOW LIMIT, and DIFF settings are at. We can walk you through the button pushes you need in order to find those settings.

Offhand, I would suggest starting with HIGH LIMIT 180, HIGH DIFF 15, LOW LIMIT 150, LOW DIFF 20. But first, let's find what they are set at now.

The only way that the home can be overheating is if that flow check valve isn't checking, or for some bizarre reason, the pump is running when the boiler fires to maintain the LOW LIMIT. I don't believe the problem is that the pump is running, it would have to be a VERY bizarre problem with the aquastat.

What I might suggest is to turn the thermostat all the way down, for HOURS... then, using your hand, follow the heat in the pipes. If the pipe from the top of the boiler is HOT (it will be), follow that up, past the expansion tank, past the flow check valve... if the pipe is hot (or even warm) past the flow check, it's clear that it's leaking through. If the t'stat has been off for hours, there would be no reason for that pipe to be even warm say six feet away from the check valve. Continue following the pipes and feeling them for heat.

Then, do the same on the pipes that are returning to the boiler, down to the black circulator pump. Are those also warm? (they will/should be MUCH cooler than the others, but let us know what your feeling is... how much cooler?)

 

Take a look at the manual that Mike linked to in post #13 and read the section on

Write down and report these settings:

Your unit may, or may not, have all of them available. If not, give us the ones that you have.

 

In regards to Peter's questions...

1 - No. It doesn't stay off. The boiler contines to kick on every 15 minutes for about 3 1/2 minutes at a time. Right now, I have the temp set to 40 and the room temp is 76. The boiler is on right now BUT the baseboards didn't pop while the boiler was on. They did pop slightly when the boiler turned off.

1a - Please see my response below to Mike's post about the hot water.

1b - Gosh...do I have to do the 90 degree check?!?!? If I let it stay on, I'm 100% confident that the temp would continue to climb until it reaches 90 and beyond because it has gotten pretty hot in the house when the temp was set to 68! I can do that test if you want but it may take some time.

In regards to doing the black circulator test, I can do that if you tell me what black circulator you're referring to. Maybe you can point it out in one of my pics.

I have noticed that before the boiler kicks on, there are a few clicks or an unusual buzzing sound for a few seconds and then it starts. If these are the clicks that you are referring to, then I can check specifically for them when we adjust the thermostat. I would have to go to the basement to hear it more clearly.

Thanks!

 

Believe it or not, I'm totally with you Trooper! I thank you for your patience and your easy explanations. Like I said before, I have NO IDEA how the boiler is suppose to work! I am a computer programmer ONLY and after all of this, I'll keep my day job!

Let me go on my adventure now to get all that you've asked for in your two posts. I'll check back in after an hour or so.

THANKS!
Shelly

 

OK Shelly, when you are done, I would like you to write some C## code for a PIC micro that I can use to control my boiler! I'll do the hardware... functional spec is in the mail. ha ha ha ... just kidding! We'll be here for ya.

 

OMG I was just about to say HECK YEAH I can do that! That's right down my alley!

 

Here are the settings that you've asked for:

• HL - 180
• HDF - N/A (did not see an option for this)
• LL - 160
• LDF - 20
• DUU - OFF
• ASC - OFF

The others settings are:

• TT - OFF
• TTE - OFF
• BT - 138
• BSP - 180
• DHC - NO

All degrees are fahrenheit.

Also, I touched the pipes going out from the flow check value and they are still very hot even though I set the temp on the thermostat at 40 over 1 1/2 hour ago. And, the boiler continues to kick on every 15 minutes.

 

How far past the flow check are they hot? all the way to where they go through the floor to the baseboards? Are the baseboards hot as well?

I think you need them to either repair that flow check, or replace it... sounds like it's not working.

I think you should drop the LL to 150 and only bump it back up if you should happen to have problems with not enough domestic hot water. If it all seems OK with the domestic hot, drop it to 140 and see what happens. The best setting for that LOW limit is the lowest setting possible consistent with adequate hot water supply to the home and can only be determined by experimentation.

 

Trooper could it be a large pipe system with high floors moving the water enough to lift that flo control?

We dont know what was there before. Possibly there were two flo controls or a balancing valve on the old unit?

Just throwing that out there.

Also I think it can be assumed the circ is not running on no call for heat and its ghost flow causing the issue.

Mike NJ

 

Something strange here... I don't believe you have the optional "OutDoor Reset" module installed, yet you are able to display some units that should not be seen without it...

Do you also see these paramaters?

ot Outdoor Temperature
otL Outdoor Temperature Low
otH Outdoor Temperature High
btL Boiler Temperature Low
bP Boost Period
bS Boost Step
UUS Warm Weather Shutdown Temperature


Maybe that OEM aquastat has an older rev firmware.

 

Yes, it sure could. Thanks for pointing that out!

They might need to add another on the return side as well...

 

I set the LL to 140. I will set it higher if I find that my hot water temperature has decreased. Also, the settings that I gave you below are the only ones that I see on the display. The other ones that you mentioned are not there. I still have the temp set to 40 and all of the baseboards are hot. If those are hot, I can only assume that the pipes coming from the flow control valve are also hot. I didn't check those again.

So, I'll be turning off the emergency switch soon because it's getting way too hot in the house!

Should I go ahead and let my installer know that the flow control valve is bad? I'm not sure if what Mike said made you change your mind at all.

THANKS!

 

Yes flow control bad I would say. They probably dont want to turn all that piping out to chage it. Possibly there is nothing in there and they are waiting for a rebuild kit????

How many floors is the home?

Cast iron baseboard or rads?

I am thinking you had a bypass on the old system and they did not install one here. Did you always have tankless from the boiler for your Hot water?

Mike NJ