New MPO installation - FINALLY!

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  #81  
Old 09-22-12, 06:08 AM
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If it is -0.03 now what do you think it will be in January?
Yes, the diverter plate or NPP.
So high that the damper won't be able to compensate, since it's all the way open when running right now.

Now I have questions about the NPP location.

The article states at least 12" from the boiler. Not really a problem, but that puts the plate right at the location of the blocked damper switch.




I should probably take a pic that shows the blocked damper switch mounted, but you can see it hanging in this pic and that's basically the level that it's attached.

The question is:

Install the NPPA either ABOVE or BELOW the blocked damper switch?

My gut feel is to install the NPPA just below the switch.

I'm thinking that if the NPPA is above the switch, there might be some 'nuisance' tripping of the switch.

This puts the NPPA a bit closer than 12" to the boiler, but not by much... maybe 11" or so. I don't guess it's THAT critical, is it?
 
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  #82  
Old 09-22-12, 10:51 AM
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ODR temp sensor discrepancy

OK, ODR is all connected but there seems to be a fairly significant difference between actual temp and that which ODR is reporting.

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The difference is not linear. The cooler it gets, the greater the difference. Last night when it was in the low 60s, the ODR was reporting 10 less. Right now it's about 82 and the ODR is reporting 79. Measured the resistance of the sensor and it is reading higher than it should be. The ODR is reporting the temp based on a bad reading... ODR itself is fine.

By the way, camera is showing weird color for the display, it IS red not orange!

Here's another pic of the flue pipe in order to understand where the best spot to install the diverter plate is:

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Finally, one especially for Furd!

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By the way, the piece of white tape on the sensor wire shows the full insertion. I did in fact have to re-route the wires in the control to get some extra length because the sensor was a full 2" from the bottom of the well as shipped! There is still some difference in the reading, but nowhere near the almost 20 that it was off initially.
 
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Old 09-22-12, 10:59 AM
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OK, ODR is all connected but there seems to be a fairly significant difference between actual temp and that which ODR is reporting.
Troop, I have to same problem with mine. If I recall correctly, it does read warmer than actual air temp. I don't know why, but it has always been like that. I think I tried contacting someone about it. They just gave me the business of where it should be placed. I figured it was consistently off so it would work fine.

BTW: No LWCO?
 
  #84  
Old 09-22-12, 11:01 AM
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I figured it was consistently off
Probably not linear though, so it will change the slope of the ODR curve.
 
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Old 09-22-12, 11:11 AM
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Yeah, I don't know. I don't remember what the difference was in the cold weather. It is about 4 degrees different right now.

For me, the curve barely gets used. My max boiler temp is 130F and my min is 120F, I think. I can't go any cooler than that. I can probably heat the whole year at 120 anyway. Especially after I insulate. I think I should have gone with a system reset over boiler. I barely knew anything at the time of installation though. I probably should have gotten a smaller boiler as well.
 
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Old 09-22-12, 11:16 AM
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It's not going to change the ODR curve, but the position you are in the curve. Will a 10 degree air temp difference change your set point by all that much to make a difference?
 
  #87  
Old 09-22-12, 01:06 PM
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It's not going to change the ODR curve
If the thermistor offset is not linear, the effect is the same as changing the slope of the reset curve.

If the offset IS linear, all you would have to do to compensate for it is move the high and low points of the curve to compensate.

should have gone with a system reset
Yeah, a buffer tank and all that...

If you can see in the pics, there is space on the flue side of my boiler... just right for a ... BUFFER TANK! My 'mind's eye' actually envisioned that during the process. All I would need to do is drop the tank in behind the boiler, pipe the boiler to the tank, and connect the other side of the tank to the existing piping... right where those unions are located! ( hmmmm... think that was planned? )

Will a 10 degree air temp difference change your set point by all that much to make a difference?
I dunno yet... haven't looked into it too closely. I do plan on replacing the sensor though. I might even go with four sensors in series/parallel all in the same location, in order to average out the tolerance differences between them.
 

Last edited by NJT; 09-22-12 at 04:18 PM.
  #88  
Old 09-22-12, 02:48 PM
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Yeah, a buffer tank and all that...
A buffer tank seems like an expensive solution. I was thinking about repiping to use my IWH as the buffer tank.
 
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Old 09-22-12, 04:14 PM
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ET Meter

I removed the 'blanking plate' from the 'hood' and made a plate to replace it and mount an elapsed time meter for the oil valve open. I'm retiring my 'doomsday clock' from service.

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As you can see, there are also a couple of 'hood ornaments added!
 
  #90  
Old 09-22-12, 04:25 PM
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BTW: No LWCO?
No, not yet, if ever... undecided still. All the radiation is above the boiler, not too worried about it really. Don't know if inspector will pitch a fit or not, but I did add the tee with a plug so I could easily install if needed.
 
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Old 09-22-12, 04:28 PM
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I removed the 'blanking plate' from the 'hood' and made a plate to replace it and mount an elapsed time meter for the oil valve open. I'm retiring my 'doomsday clock' from service.
Ooh nice. I like that idea. Maybe I will do that if I ever add a meter.
 
  #92  
Old 09-22-12, 04:30 PM
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You will surely make your plate out of a nice exotic wood though, right?
 
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Old 09-22-12, 04:31 PM
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Haha. I guess I could, but I usually put that stuff in the fireplace.
 
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Old 09-22-12, 04:35 PM
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That plate is out of 3/32" aluminum. Too thick for my nibbler, and I needed 2.25" hole. I ended up drilling holes all around and half-round filing it out.

I can see yours in a nice birds-eye maple... with an ogee around the edge... the meter face recessed into the plate...
 
  #95  
Old 09-22-12, 06:38 PM
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A system reset is only going o pay back if you operate temps much lower than the boiler can operate at. If the min temp is 120 - 130 then a buffer tank is not the best idea. I usually suggest a buffer with over sized boilers or when system temps are consistently operating lower then the boiler can operate.
If the boiler properly sized and will operate in the range of required water temperatures there is no need for a buffer tank.

As far as you ODR temp I am wondering if you are picking up RFI due to magnetic fields or electrical interference. Try disconnecting the wires from the control and metering the ohms. Go outside and disconnect the wire from the sensor and measure the sensor alone. The readings should be close.

the sensor wire should not run parallel to line voltage wires, stay away from the electrical panel florescent lights, large screen tv's and any strong signal outputs. If the reading is different I would try shielded cable and ground one side.
 
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Old 09-22-12, 06:54 PM
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I doubt I will go with the buffer tank, but the space is there if I ever decide (and have the $$$). Of course, if I wait too long, the Treasurer will find a use for that empty space!

I doubt it's an RFI problem. The cable is run away from all other power conductors, no electronic gadgets nearby, AND it already IS a shielded cable (a very GOOD shielded cable! twisted pair, 18 ga, foil over braid, and grounded at the boiler end (if you look closely at the pic with the hood open, you might be able to see the yellow lug screwed to the sheet metal right below the ODR).

I did in fact measure the sensor by itself and at the other end of the wire, they match.

The temp hit 84 today and at 84 the sensor and thermometer were equal. When it's down at 61, the sensor reads 51.

I'm pretty sure this sensor is kaput. I have access to some very high quality sensors so it's not going to be any problem at all to fix it up.


What about the location of the NPP plate? Above, or below the OVD blocked damper switch?
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-30-12 at 07:56 PM.
  #97  
Old 09-22-12, 06:59 PM
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The plate needs to be below but not too close.
 
  #98  
Old 09-22-12, 07:02 PM
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OK, that's what I thought. It's kinda tight for space between trying to keep the plate at least 12" from the boiler and staying as far away from the switch as possible... it will be a compromise.

Thanks for all the help! REALLY appreciate it!
 
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Old 09-23-12, 02:19 PM
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Neutral Pressure Point Adjuster (NPPA)

Today I made and installed the NPPA.

I adjusted it with the boiler full hot and flue temp around 350 gross. (about as hot as it gets)

Set it up for ever so slightly negative... about -0.005".

Let the boiler cool, ran it again.

Had POSITIVE reading of about +0.015 at first, then gradually as the chimney warmed, and the flue temp came up, the reading went to negative -0.005 and the baro damper started to open slightly. By the time the flue temp was at about 250 gross, the draft at the breech was ZERO.

I THINK this is OK.

If it is NOT, please let me know so I can trim the restrictor plate a little more.

I haven't rechecked the smoke or CO2 after adding the NPPA, but will do very soon.
 
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Old 09-23-12, 02:22 PM
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I would like to add a 3/8" pipe nipple, maybe 6" or so, to the draft port on the rear of the boiler in order to make easier to get to. I'll put a cap on it when not in use (or just leave the draft gauge permanently connected).

I can't see any reason why this is not advisable... anyone ?
 
  #101  
Old 09-24-12, 01:22 PM
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The MPO

Hi Troop
I am in the process of doing that just now. I am using 1/8 pipe black or gal, because all the probes will fit through 1/8 pipe, if you drill them out to 9/64. or even 5/16. they are smaller, easier to handle and take up less room. 2 or three inch in length should be long enough, and to secure them to your flue pipe use those 1/8 pipe thread nuts that thew use on little electric switches and fittings. To check my over the fire draft, I have an inspection plug in my fire door, and I drilled and tapped a 1/8" pipe thread hole in the plug, and I am extending it out through the sheet metal cover or whatever they call it, and cap it with a 1/8 pipe cap just like you said. Anyway I will be able to get all 4 readings at once, before it cycles off.
Sid
 
  #102  
Old 09-24-12, 02:19 PM
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Hi Sid, on the back of the MPO, next to the flue outlet there is a 3/8" tapping... comes with a brass plug. This is what Burnham wants us to use for breech draft readings on this boiler.

I found that the sampling tube for my draft gauge is a snug enough fit to the ID of 3/8" copper... REAL close...

So, I'm going to come out of that port with a close nipple, an elbow up, a leftover 3/8 flare fitting to copper tubing, over about a foot or so to the wall.

With the MZF, the instructions call for a moisture trap and drain valve but all this tubing is downhill to the boiler so I don't think I need that.

I'll permanently mount the gauge to the wall behind the boiler, and stick the sample tube in the end of the copper tube, or if I need to measure over fire, just pull the probe out of the tube and go from there.
 
  #103  
Old 09-25-12, 05:22 PM
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Sounds good to me as long as the CO2, Co and smoke all fall into place. Not a problem with the extension.
 
  #104  
Old 09-25-12, 09:38 PM
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At this time I have no way to measure the CO levels... CO2 is right at 12% and smoke is Zero.

So not to worry about the slight positive in the flue as the chimney comes to temp, good...

I guess the last thing to do then is to finish putting the mouse preventer around the bottom, put the cover on the burner, close the hood, and off we go!
 
  #105  
Old 09-27-12, 09:02 PM
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I know that I'm going to need to warm the oil coming to the boiler. After considering all the options, I decided on building a small 'room' around about three feet of the feed tubing and the Tiger Loop. This 'room' will be made out of aluminum. Not so much a 'room' as an 'enclosure'.

Here's what I've got so far:

Temperature controller feeding a 600W lamp dimmer. This dimmer will be wired to a 225W 250 ohm tubular power resistor which will be the heating element.

The resistor will be inside this enclosure.

Tested the setup tonight with the resistor in a cardboard box on the floor.

It works great. At about 'half throttle' on the lamp dimmer, I could EASILY maintain 80 in the box. I know it's not cold out yet, so I turned it up to full throttle and setpoint at 120. It warmed that box to 120 in no time and had no trouble keeping it there.

FYI, a 250 ohm resistor at 120 VAC is about 60 watts or 200 BTU

This is what my test setup looked like. Furd would just LOVE this!

KIDS! DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME! :NO NO NO: THERE IS 120 VAC EXPOSED! I'M AN IDIOT :bad poster:, in my defense, I DO have 35 years experience dealing with electrons and fully understand the dangers... but unless you are 100% confident in your abilities to live through something like this, DON'T DO AS I DO !

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Last edited by NJT; 09-29-12 at 06:21 AM.
  #106  
Old 09-30-12, 05:15 PM
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You could pretend you are in Alaska and solder about 6' of the fuel line to the system return. Use the heating system as a pre-heater. No need to build anything, but i know you like to putz around.
 
  #107  
Old 09-30-12, 05:44 PM
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HA! Don't think I didn't think about doing just that! In fact, I even entertained thoughts of running the fuel line under the boiler in a couple coils and back out again...

But yeah, I do love to invent stuff, and my invention is done... came out nice, and I plan to post some pics of it later on this week.
 
  #108  
Old 10-01-12, 03:26 PM
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I decided that I'm going to add yet a third oil filter. I'm afeared of this tiny little 0.5GPH nozzle clogging up at the worst time... Sunday, Christmas Eve, 3AM, in the middle of the blizzard of the century.

Near the tank I have the General 25 felt, followed by a 25 micron spin on.



This is in the COLD room on the other side of the wall from the boiler.

Where I used a coupler to splice in the 4' section of tubing to reach the new boiler is a perfect place for an even finer spin-on filter. So, that's what I'm going to do... parts ordered, should be here tomorrow.

Going out now to take some pics of the oil pre-heat box and the 'anti-vermin skirt' for your enjoyment and critique.
 
  #109  
Old 10-01-12, 05:47 PM
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Pardon my dumb question, but does per-heating the oil help that much, or is because of where your tank and lines are sitting in a cold area?
 
  #110  
Old 10-01-12, 06:37 PM
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Not a dumb question at all!

With my old boiler, the first winter after the 'big spill', with the new tank above ground in the completely unheated garage, once that oil got down below about 35 that old boiler would simply not run. I'm talking REALLY loud ... BOOM! BOOOM! shaking the whole house. Belching black smoke out the chimney. Never had the problem with the 50 plus oil coming out of the inground tank with buried lines.

My quick solution at the time was to build a box out of 2" foam insulation, heavy duty aluminum foil, and duct tape around the Tiger Loop de-aerator next to the boiler. Stuck a digital thermometer probe into the box to monitor the temp. I heated it with a desk lamp and a 40W bulb on a dimmer. Adjusted it manually. If I saw it dipping to the 60s, I'd turn up the dimmer a tad. This solved the problem because the oil in the Tiger Loop was well above 40 and the burner ran fine.

That boiler had a 1.25 GPH nozzle, so the orifice was more than twice as big as the 0.50 GPH in the new boiler. Imagine the effect of the cold oil on that much smaller of a nozzle! In fact, if you were to Google around some, you would find quite a few complaints about the MPO 'being a piece of junk' because when it gets really cold out, folks were having the exact problem I had with my old boiler. Of course they blamed the boiler when in fact the problem was cold oil. The MPO manual even states that oil under 40 will cause problems with combustion.

Fast forward to now... I didn't want to gamble with having to jimmy something together in the middle of January so I had heat in the house.

I don't like the idea of the concentrated heat that the 'nozzle line heaters' provide. These are installed on that short nozzle tube that comes out of the pump and over to the nozzle. OK, maybe they solve the problem, but I just don't like them. Those 'heat tapes' that they sell are designed for WATER pipes, and the manufacturers don't recommend them for fuel oil lines (but many people do use them!) Thus, the oil pre-heater box was born... pics to follow.
 
  #111  
Old 10-01-12, 07:48 PM
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This is going to be a picture-centric post.

First let me apologize for my tired old camera. The boiler is NOT a puke aqua greenish seaweed color. It is BLUE! A very pretty BLUE at that!

Here is top view from front and rear with cover removed. This is between the boiler and the block foundation wall. The bottom and outside wall sides are insulated with foam insulation. I didn't insulate the boiler side as the heat from the boiler will only help. I don't think insulation on the other sides is needed. All the metalwork was done in my home shop with hand tools (and it shows! ) The gray wire with the black end hanging inside is the temp probe from the controller. The dark gray tube in the bottom is the 225W 250 ohm power resistor.

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Looking down with the top cover in place.

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This is the back side where the oil line enters the box showing where the new 10 micron filter will be installed. Wish I had thought of it sooner, I might have made the box longer and installed the filter inside also but that would have made it very difficult to change when needed!

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Here are the flex lines coming out of the box with access to the Fir-o-matic valve below the Tiger Loop. Enclosing the Fir-o-matic inside the box would defeat it's purpose somewhat.

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Here is the 'control center' showing the temp controller and the lamp dimmer.

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Lastly, front and rear views with the 'skirts' attached. Lemmee tellya, it was a B1TC4 getting the radius on that front corner correct!

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So there ya go! Comments and criticism welcome... any ideas for improvements? Pitfalls I haven't thought of? ( one in particular that I HAVE thought of... what happens if the temp controller fails ON ? I'm considering an aux high limit of some sort. Any ideas? )
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-01-12 at 08:03 PM.
  #112  
Old 10-02-12, 05:01 AM
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Thanks for the info on the heating the oil. I figured it was because your tank was outside, but thought I would double check in case it was for something else.
Your setup has definately set the bar for me on my boiler clean up next summer. Love the very clean setup and will definitely be asking you in a few pointers when my time comes. Not sure if I'll be going with a new boiler (probably a good idea) but will definitely get rid of the remaining retrofits and clean up my stuff.
 
  #113  
Old 10-02-12, 05:46 AM
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Troop, that oil line heater box is sweet. Great idea - and nice implementation of it.

The entire installation looks sharp; your attention to detail really makes it stand out.
 
  #114  
Old 10-02-12, 06:37 PM
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Thanks guys!

After looking at the pics, it occurs to me that a coat of paint on the floor needs to be added to the list! That looks like crap! It used to be tiled with the "A-word" tiles which were uhhhh, abated.

I installed the new sensor for the ODR this evening. While the old one was reading six degrees low at 69 outdoors, this one is reading 70 ... much better. I would rather have it read a degree high than six low. It still remains to be seen if it is more linear than the old one. By the time the temp reached 61, the old one was reading 10 low. At 58 it was reading 47... progressively worse as it got colder.

I also made the bracket for mounting the new filter... waiting for the paint to dry now.

Pics when I can...
 
  #115  
Old 10-03-12, 07:14 AM
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very impressive looking...

and have questions. Feel like an intern asking these things, but perhaps seeing what you've done might lead others to improve or design a better system. Hey, wait, that's what the board is for~!

1) Can you elaborate on the need for an oil line heater?

We have two tanks in an unheated outdoor sheltered area, a line about 40' long (20 at outdoor temp and 20 at indoor temp) supplying a 3.75GPH burner. Should we look into a heater for it?

2) The "wye" that's just in front of the backflow preventor and the pressure valve, is it there to keep crud out those parts?

I've replaced a vertically mounted Watts 1156FSTD pressure regulator and the backflow preventor twice in the past 3 years because of crud that allowed the boiler to flood. Would a wye be beneficial? It originally had a BG 110193 which was good for about 10 years.

Hope the system works for you as well as it looks!
 
  #116  
Old 10-03-12, 07:17 AM
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I too am in need of a coat of paint, dire need~
But that's low priority right now
 
  #117  
Old 10-03-12, 11:03 AM
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TBurr asks:

Can you elaborate on the need for an oil line heater?
Trooper has a fairly small nozzle on his burner at 0.5 gallons per hour. That small and the oil viscosity becomes rather important. At lower temperatures the viscosity increases and this causes problems with the burner. There are several possible fixes to this problem and Trooper's pre-heat box is only one. If it had been me I would have probably just coiled up ten feet or so of copper oil line inside the boiler outer casing.
We have two tanks in an unheated outdoor sheltered area, a line about 40' long (20 at outdoor temp and 20 at indoor temp) supplying a 3.75GPH burner. Should we look into a heater for it?
Not unless you are having problems with your burner.
The "wye" that's just in front of the backflow preventor and the pressure valve, is it there to keep crud out those parts?
That is not just a "wye", but a Y-strainer and yes, it is to catch the crud in the piping and protect the downstream parts. A Y-strainer is always a good idea before regulating valves but is seldom installed.
 
  #118  
Old 10-03-12, 03:54 PM
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Agreed with Furd... always do!

Want to add that post #110 has my explanation of why I felt it necessary to build this contraption.

I did explore the various options for preheating and Furd's idea of coiling some tubing and nestling it up next to the boiler was one of them. One of the reasons I didn't take that route is because there was no 'control' over the oil temp. Also, I calculated the flow rate of the oil in the tubing at about 6 FPM with a .6 GPH flow (yes, it's a 0.5 GPH nozzle running at 150 PSI which increases the firing rate slightly) So, 10 feet of tubing inside the boiler jacket (if there was even room for it without removing some insulation to make the space) would be empty of the warmed oil in a little more than a minute and a half. Then I would have to rely on the incoming oil to be warmed in the amount of time it went through the coils. Too many variables for me...

Furd, did you see rbecks suggestion of soldering 6' of the oil line to the return line like they do up in Alaska? I'm sure THAT would have passed muster here!

I guess you saw the pics I took just for you?

As for the wye strainer... the screen in that is actually fairly large, and there's also a slightly smaller screen in the 9D, and I believe there is one in the 1156 too. None of them are small enough to keep the smaller particles out, but those should not present a problem to the 1156 passing them... (ouch! sounds like I'm talking about Kidney stones!)

More important than screening the incoming water is thoroughly FLUSHING at a FAST RATE the piping between the main water supply and the boiler whenever a reducing valve is replaced. LOTS of 'crud' can collect in that line over the years because there is rarely any flow in it, and when it does flow it's generally just a trickle. Being on a private well is also incentive for me to NOT have any plumbing 'dead ends' where 'creepie crawlies' can breed. That is the reason for the accessible 'flush valve' that you will see in the pics. I am in the habit of flushing my water heater regularly, and it's right next to that flush valve. I've got the hose in my hand anyway!
 
  #119  
Old 10-03-12, 03:59 PM
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We have two tanks in an unheated outdoor sheltered area, a line about 40' long (20 at outdoor temp and 20 at indoor temp) supplying a 3.75GPH burner. Should we look into a heater for it?
Not unless you are having problems with your burner.
Yeah, at 3.75 GPH you obviously haven't had problems with it or your wouldn't be asking now, I assume you've got a 'history' with this system?

It sounds like a commercial size burner, and if it is, you wouldn't want to hack something together like I did, but rather purchase and install a commercial grade unit made for the purpose. There are quite a few manufacturers of same.

But, again, don't do it unless you need to!
 
  #120  
Old 10-03-12, 04:24 PM
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I'm a little cornfuzed about the air shutter on this new burner. On every other AFG I've played with, the screw on the bottom locks the shutter in place. On this burner it does NOT. You can still move the shutter with the screw snugged down. What gives?

Shouldn't there be a way to lock that setting so it don't get bumped axerdentally?
I asked this back in post #78 and still wondering about it. I'm nervous about that shutter moving by accident or vibration.

Shouldn't that lock down with the screw?
 
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