New MPO installation - FINALLY!

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  #121  
Old 10-03-12, 05:52 PM
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I know you asked about the shutter but did you actually mean the air band. the shutter has the metal pointer for small firing rate adjustent. The air band is for larger amounts of air adjustment.
They should both be snug when tightened down. I don't believe that Beckett has not changed anything.
 
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  #122  
Old 10-03-12, 06:01 PM
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No, I did mean the shutter... the air band is snug, no problem there.

I tighten the screw on the bottom between the supply and return ports on the oil pump and the shutter still can be fairly easily moved by hand... weird!

I haven't examined it yet, but I will, very soon, to see if I can find the problem.
 
  #123  
Old 10-03-12, 06:36 PM
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Sounds like your missing a screw above the pump,there should be two,above and below. I leave the bottom one loose and lock the top one .
 
  #124  
Old 10-03-12, 08:27 PM
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I do recall seeing the one up top also to the left of center and I believe that one is tight also.

Didn't get a chance to look at it tonight,

was busy installing the new filter, all done.
 
  #125  
Old 10-04-12, 12:10 AM
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Furd, did you see rbecks suggestion of soldering 6' of the oil line to the return line like they do up in Alaska? I'm sure THAT would have passed muster here!
Yes, I saw it. No need to solder the two together, though, just wrap the pair with some bare copper wire to hold them in intimate contact. You can solder the ends of the wire or use some other method to ensure it won't unwrap. Quite honestly, there are several ways to make an oil heater when one is needed. I once made an oil heater from a piece of 3-inch steel pipe. It had both an electric heater (with thermostat) and a coil to be used with either steam or hot water. It's lying around somewhere in the garage so if I find it I'll take a picture and post it.
I guess you saw the pics I took just for you?
Yep, I saw them. Check your PMs.
 
  #126  
Old 10-04-12, 02:47 PM
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That one you made sounds like the commercial ones I've looked at. Those are primarily used for that nasty old #6 I think. Who would want to burn anything that looks like Molasses? And probably smells like Mole A55es too!

I'm pretty sure that one could simply run a length of tubing parallel to the return pipe and wire it in a few places and wrap the whole mess in insulation too... wouldn't be quite as much heat transfer, but probably enough.

The oil filter I installed last night puts almost a quart of oil inside the 'semi' heated envelope, next to the boiler, ahead of the pre-heater. This will, I'm certain, take the heavy chill off the oil before it even gets to the pre-heater box. I'm sure I'll have no trouble with cold oil this winter!

[edit 11-14-12 | yeah, famous last words... who thought we would be without power for 12 days in the wake of unprecedented Hurricanes and Nor'Easter storms?]
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-14-12 at 04:16 PM.
  #127  
Old 10-04-12, 07:18 PM
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Many times with a tiger loop you don't need a heater. Depends how much line is inside befor the tiger loop. Since the pump movers much more oil than the nossle uses much of the oiler goes through the pump, back to the tiger loop and back tot he pump only to have much of it recirculated back. The tiger loop will normally take care of cold oil issues on the smaller firing rates.
 
  #128  
Old 10-04-12, 07:53 PM
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...nasty old #6 I think. Who would want to burn anything that looks like Molasses? And probably smells like Mole A55es too!
I far prefer the aroma of #6 (Bunker C) oil to the stink of Diesel. Even the cheap reclaimed bunker fuel that had everything from solvents to tank scrapings in it smelled better than diesel fuel. But if you REALLY want fun try burning diesel (150 degrees F. flash point) with a steam atomizer using 380 degree F. steam!
 
  #129  
Old 10-04-12, 08:53 PM
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Have I ever learned to despise the smell of diesel!...................................

Just tonight while changing a filter I accidentally spilt about a cup of fuel on the concrete floor. That is gonna stink now for a YEAR!
 
  #130  
Old 10-04-12, 08:56 PM
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Have I ever learned to despise the smell of diesel!
Hmmm... I think you wear it as old spice.... Gets the girls you know....LOL


 
  #131  
Old 10-05-12, 12:20 AM
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If it had been high quality #6 (not reclaimed crap) the aromatics would have dissipated within a month and it would have also solidified within a day allowing you to scrape it off the floor with a putty knife. A little high-powered solvent and kitty litter ground with your heel would remove 90% of the stain.
 
  #132  
Old 10-05-12, 09:16 AM
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If I could actually GET to the spill, it would be easy enough... but the spill is between the tank and the foundation wall and there's 3" clearance between the back and 6" on the side. Of course the bulk of the 8-12 oz of fuel ran UNDER the tank and there's only about 2" clearance there. I scrubbed as much as I could with a rag on a stick... tonight I'm gonna try some Lestoil and see how that goes.
 
  #133  
Old 10-05-12, 09:17 AM
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The MPO

Nothing works as good as the granular diatomatious earth did. It seems to have dissapeared from the market. The clay stuff isn't anyway near as good. You can get the "earth" from lawn and garden stores in a powerded form, it's used to kill roaches and other nice creatures. It works but not as good. If anyone knows where to buy the old granular form of "earth" please let me know.
Nice job on the boiler by the way.
Sid
 
  #134  
Old 10-05-12, 10:52 AM
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If you think diesel is bad, just imagine what it's like to smell like No.6 heavy fuel, rich in sulfur & vanadium.

Hope you don't mind, but Im 'stealing' your apron idea.

BTW, Nice paint job on the window casing
 
  #135  
Old 10-05-12, 02:19 PM
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Thanks Sid, I asked a co-worker about it today and he also said to use DE. It's really not too stinky this evening, but still need to get the odor down a bit more to be happy again. I'll let you know if I can find a source of the 'good stuff'.

TT, our good friend Furd said he would smell #6 any day over #2 ... but either one, I'm sick of smelling fuel oil!

No patents on the apron! Go for it, make sure to post pics. If I didn't have the aluminum 'in stock', I might have opted for some 'roll flashing' (hint: BE CAREFUL! when you cut the band on the roll! Be prepared for it to unravel like a clock spring and slice your fingers off!)

On the paint... that's just slopped on with one of them disposable foam brushes... but it sure looks way better than it did for the past 25 years!
 
  #136  
Old 10-06-12, 06:33 PM
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tonight I'm gonna try some Lestoil and see how that goes.
Do they still even MAKE Lestoil ? Not at K or Wal Mart, not at Lowes, not at grocery store...
 
  #137  
Old 10-06-12, 07:39 PM
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My wife keeps a bottle in the laundry room, and it's used regularly for oily stains, whether food or industrial oily. "It's in the cleaning aisle at the supermarket" she just said...
 
  #138  
Old 10-06-12, 08:05 PM
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Yeah, that's where I've been looking. I understand that the Shop-Rite near me might have it, but A&P and Acme did not. I'll find it... or use the 'ZEP Citrus Degreaser' that HD sells. I kinda might prefer a citrus over the pine oil smell. Pine oil reminds me of the outhouses at Boy Scout camp.

By the way, the issue of the air shutter not locking has been solved.

The bottom screw on this new burner does not lock the shutter. There is a 'tang' that prevents it tightening all the way as it did on my old burner and others that I've worked on.

The screw at the TOP to the left of the oil solenoid coil DOES lock the shutter, but being new and having never been locked down the threads were tight. I gave a little more oomph to the nut driver and it snugged right up.

All is well in Whoville.
 
  #139  
Old 10-07-12, 04:46 AM
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You can always get it here: Amazon.com: lestoil
 
  #140  
Old 10-07-12, 09:19 AM
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What OD sensor did you use? Make and model please.
Engineering is checking into this issue wit Honeywell. Sounds like it was more the sensor the control reading it.
 
  #141  
Old 10-07-12, 10:15 AM
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Hi RB, yes, it was absolutely the sensor and not the control. I used the Honeywell C7089U1006 for the VisionPro T'stats. I found this number on the ComfortCalc website... so far it's tracking within a degree or two of actual. I cut the leads shorter and spliced (soldered, heat shrink) onto the end of the shielded cable. I thought about mounting it inside the original housing but thought it would be more responsive if I used the wire clip provided with the thermistor so that's what I did.

Sending you a PM about a related question...
 
  #142  
Old 11-14-12, 04:06 PM
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My new boiler now has 72 hours of run time on it.

Made it through Hurricane Sandy and Nor'Easter Athena and 12 days of no power running off two different generators.

First week run from Monday to the following Tuesday (8 days) on a late 60's vintage Dayton 120V 2000W, and then I managed to obtain a Generac GP5500 and it ran fine on that one also.

I wanted to bring up a bit about my 'oil preheater box'...

Since the boiler was not powered in between runs and the oil preheater is wired to the same circuit, every run was with oil that was in the low 50's temperature range.

It DID 'stumble' on cold starts! Not badly, and never a 'flame out' and 'recycle', but for the first minute or two after the ignitor shut off I could tell it wasn't real happy... she was huffin' and puffin' until the combustion chamber warmed a bit.

I really didn't expect that there would be trouble until the oil got down into the 40's.

Now that power is back and the preheater box and TigerLoop are being maintained at 65 and the weather is cooling enough that heat calls are becoming frequent enough that the boiler stays somewhat warm between them, there are no more stumbling starts.

For future needs, I am going to have to separate the preheater box AC supply from the boiler so that I can continue to run that as long as the genny is running for other needs. This way at least the oil can be warmed somewhat before starting the boiler.

I am going to look into ways to lengthen the ignition time. As long as the ignition was ON, there was no stumbling. The moment it turned off, stumble time.

I've got a few ideas:

I wish Honeywell would have a way to increase this time in the control settings... but since they don't, I may have to do something myself with a time delay relay. I may have to wire up the relay so I can lengthen the ignition on time to say a minute, or a minute and a half... keep ignition on until the chamber is hot enough to support combustion.

I do NOT want to wire it so it's always on, which is the easiest but wasteful way. I'm not real sure that the electronic ignitor will like 100% duty cycle either...

I'm also wondering if it might not be a bad idea to lay a thin Kaowool blanket on the bottom of the combustion chamber to reflect some heat back to the flame. I don't know if this will create any issues with uneven heating of the cast iron though so I'm going to wait with this idea until I can get some clear info from Burnham Engineering.

rbeck, what you think?
 
  #143  
Old 11-14-12, 08:43 PM
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There is a cold oil spec for the MPO boiler.
Are you running a 0.50/45/W. Is so run the pump pressure up to 180 PSI. You could try 160 first if you want. I find that usually is enough for cold oil. Double check combustion settings and head setting.That is Beckett's suggestion. Do not use a blankett on the floor of the boiler due to pressure fired and thermal transfer.
 
  #144  
Old 11-15-12, 02:26 PM
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Thanks RB,

I did note in the manual that it stated something about "... 40 oil ..." or something like that... which is why I was surprised to hear stumbling when the oil is still in the 50's.

Yes, stock nozzle, 0.50/45/W is correct.

Increasing pump pressure is going to kick the firing rate up a bit so yes, I will sure recheck burner combustion.

There may be an 'upside' that the flue gas runs a bit hotter, which in my case will be another benefit. In the spring/summer I'm going to replace the whole chimney with 5" which I think will help a bit more with the condensate issue ( which seems to be 'ok' since removing the baffles ) because hopefully by doing this I will be able to replace the baffles to get that 1-2% efficiency back.

Gotcha on NO BLANKET. I thought that would be the answer...
 
  #145  
Old 11-15-12, 09:23 PM
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You talking about a 5" stainless liner?
 
  #146  
Old 11-16-12, 06:17 AM
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Yes, either a 5" rigid 316 stainless liner inside the existing 6" Metalbestos chimney (I believe I may also be able to fit the 1/4" insulation blanket inside), or completely replacing the entire 6" chimney with a 5" product.
 
  #147  
Old 11-22-12, 08:53 AM
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OK... new observation and hopefully can get some understanding...

There is a 'run' time parameter on the new MPO controls.

Just now it's reading " 67 " which the manuals tell me is 'hours'.

Yet, the elapsed time meter I installed very shortly after commissioning the new boiler is now reading over NINETY hours, and this is only the OIL VALVE OPEN time.

Why is the boiler display run time so skewed from the actual run time?

Is there some way that I may have inadvertently RESET the control at some point? Is there even a way to do that?
 
  #148  
Old 11-22-12, 09:34 AM
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I would have to read the manual...but how fat are your fingers???
 
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Old 11-22-12, 09:42 AM
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Hah! I can tell you that the IQ controls don't sport too many buttons. It would take some effort to accidentally rest something in there.
 
  #150  
Old 11-22-12, 01:22 PM
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Not too fat... but there are big calluses on the tips of my left hand fingers...

Yeah, I don't think it's even possible to reset.
I looked, doesn't say anything about it, but I wonder if extended power off times will eventually lose what ever is stored in NV ram...
 
  #151  
Old 12-02-12, 04:15 PM
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OK... new observation and hopefully can get some understanding...

There is a 'run' time parameter on the new MPO controls.

Just now it's reading " 67 " which the manuals tell me is 'hours'.

Yet, the elapsed time meter I installed very shortly after commissioning the new boiler is now reading over NINETY hours, and this is only the OIL VALVE OPEN time.

Why is the boiler display run time so skewed from the actual run time?

Is there some way that I may have inadvertently RESET the control at some point? Is there even a way to do that?
That quote was from the 22nd... today of course is Dec 2nd

Boiler has racked up 1109 heating cycles so far. Looks like appx 7-8 minutes per cycle.

The run time display on the boiler is now telling me 115 hours and my elapsed time meter on the oil valve is saying 143 hours.

Seems to be appx 20% discrepancy there.

rbeck, any clues on why?

I mean, if anything, I would expect the boiler to report HIGHER because my ET meter is only on the oil valve.
 
  #152  
Old 12-02-12, 05:03 PM
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I mean, if anything, I would expect the boiler to report HIGHER because my ET meter is only on the oil valve.
That kind of difference almost sounds like your oil valve meter is reading any time the burner is powered. The only other thing I can think of is if the meter is made for 100 volts or maybe 50 Hz????
 
  #153  
Old 12-02-12, 05:16 PM
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Definitely wired to oil valve, definitely 120VAC 60Hz synchronous clock motor.

I know... sounds bass ackwards, don't it?
 
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Old 12-02-12, 05:32 PM
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Figured you'd already checked but ya know it's sometimes the simple stuffs. Was worth a shot.
 
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Old 12-02-12, 05:44 PM
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Hey bud, you better get crackin! I'm almost 1000 past you!
 
  #156  
Old 12-02-12, 06:40 PM
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Workin' +/- 60 hrs/wk + going to school two nights a week, don't leave much time for 'puter. Started back to school, first of four years, this fall to get my electrical license.
 
  #157  
Old 12-02-12, 07:12 PM
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You GO schoolboy! THAT's what I like to hear! Good Luck!
 
  #158  
Old 12-05-12, 12:01 PM
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Thumbs up Grundfos Question

Does your pump have a speed control? I have a Baxi Luna that has an internal Grundfos, not sure of the model, at work. It has a three speed switch on it marked 1-2-3. I'm not sure what it should be set to.

I'm going to start a new thread on my system that was installed by a prior owner. I have questions.

NICE install, I also want to thank you all for your informative posts! I'm learning a ton! Figured I'd read as much as possible for asking the questions.

Robert
 
  #159  
Old 12-05-12, 03:42 PM
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Yes, the pump is a Grundfos 15-58 3 speed.

On my system the speed isn't really hyper-critical. I did a few 'delta t' measurements and ended up picking the 'happy medium' setting.

The HIGH setting was too high, one could hear the water rushing in the pipes.

The LOW setting was a little bit 'lazy' in that the return water was about 30 cooler than the supply.

Goldilocks suggested that MED was 'just right'.

Ask the questions about the pump in your BAXI thread... I'll stop by later.

In general though, for an internal pump like that, and the type of boiler that you have which probably has a restrictive heat exchanger, you should consult the manual for the manufacturers recommendations. A lot of them I've seen recommend HI... in order to keep the flow through the boiler where it needs to be.

Thanks for the kudos! Have a beer on me!
 
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Old 12-30-12, 03:05 PM
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Boiler is running great so far... no issues... can't say how much if any fuel is being saved just yet, but it seems like at least 10% or so.

One thing I wanted to mention which sorta surprised me a bit:

When I knocked the old Vaillant boiler block apart, lo and behold, the iron was cast in the Buderus foundry!

All these years I thought I had a POS Vaillant boiler and it turns out I had a POS Buderus Boiler! ha ha ha ha ...
 
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