Three zone baseboard heat, two zones not heating


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Old 10-09-12, 08:47 AM
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Three zone baseboard heat, two zones not heating

Hi, I've got three zones, one for each floor with their own thermostats and pumps coming from the boiler. One zone works fine, and at least one of the other ones was working fine last week. Now, the two that aren't working, the ground and upper floors, are powering the pumps when the thermostat is turned on, but the water is not moving through the pipes right above the pump and therefore not through the whole circuit.

Is it possible there is air in these circuits restricting the water flow? The pumps are warm to the touch and vibrate as though they're working, but the pipes above these two pumps is not hot while they are hot just below the pump.

Is there a way I can troubleshoot the pumps?

If the pipes need bleeding, how can I do that?

Thanks for your input.
 
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Old 10-09-12, 09:15 AM
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Tell us the pressure and temp on the boiler gauge.

A dozen or so wide angle photos, in focus, would help us advise you how to bleed air from your system. Do you have baseboards or radiators? Check to see if there are air bleeders on them.
 
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Old 10-09-12, 10:07 PM
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The pressure on the boiler is ~12-15.

For whatever reason, the pump for the top floor (far right in the photo) has started to pump water and appears to be working correctly.

The thermostat/pump in the basement (far left in the photo) is working fine too.

The pump for the ground level appears to be on when the thermostat is turned on; it is hot to the touch and has power going to it. However, the piping just above it, leading up to the ground floor, is not warm while the piping below it, coming from the boiler is hot. Is it time to bleed the line? Do I shut the valve between the boiler and the pump while doing this?
 
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Old 10-09-12, 11:09 PM
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By the way, these are baseboard heaters, not radiators; the kind with the "fins." Pressure and temp appear ok since the bottom and top floors are working properly. I've not seen any pressure/air relief valves on the baseboards or piping so am thinking of bleeding through the hose connection just below the pump. Is this the proper procedure and do I shut the valve between the boiler and the pump when I do this? The other alternative is that the pump is simply not circulating the water in the loop and needs replacement?
 
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Old 10-10-12, 05:09 AM
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Bleeding won't happen by using the valve below the pump. Air goes up, so odds are you should only get water out of that valve. Interesting to see a drain valve for each zone. kind of overkill I think.
Are there any more valves on that zone that we can't see (on the return/cold side maybe)?
If all valves are open, I am thinking you might have a pump that is failing.

You could try swaping pumps and see if that starts moving water. I suspect (could be wrong) that the pump on the left is newer then the others. I'd swap the one on the left with the middle one as it was known good.
 
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Old 10-10-12, 01:29 PM
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I've got a couple more pictures that might help:

This appears to be in the end of the loop since the line continues down and ties into the boiler line that goes to the pumps.

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Close up of Flo Control Valve:

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Old 10-10-12, 01:37 PM
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Here's a shot of the whole system; the Flo Control closeup can't be seen here since it's behind the vent in the upper right:

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Old 10-10-12, 02:24 PM
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Shut the valve below the drain valve on the zone you want to purge. Turn the knob on the flow control for that zone so its all the way open. CCW I think.

Hook a hose up to the boiler drain for that zone and drain in a bucket. Add pressure to the boiler with the fill valve/boiler feed. Should have a handle on it. Its above the circs.

Dont let the pressure build past 30 psi or the relief valve will trip.

You may need to take 2 bucket out or so, but you need to keep the psi up while doing this with the fill valve.

When your dont make sure you let enough water out so the pressure settles at 10 psi. The fill valve will fill it automatically to 12-15 psi.


Then close the flo control, open the yellow valve and run that zone.


Where is your air elimination device? Possible its not working.....

Oh make sure the boiler is cool!!!!!!!! 100F or so.








 
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Old 10-10-12, 04:14 PM
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The pressure on the boiler is ~12-15.
NEVER, EVER trust a boiler gauge!

Read this:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html

To Northern Mike:

Interesting to see a drain valve for each zone. kind of overkill I think.
Commonly known as ' purge stations '. They allow purging each zone individually with a fast flow of water. By closing the ball valve and hooking up the hose one can 'direct' the water to flow through one zone at a time. Water always flows from high pressure to low pressure.
 
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Old 10-10-12, 05:11 PM
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I found what I think is a pressure release valve at the end of the upper floor baseboard. With the thermostat turned on and the pump running I opened it and got nothing. The pump has worked within the past couple of days, but it was apparent no water was moving through the pipes. A couple questions; is it possible that air is making this pump move water sporadically? Is it normal that I cannot find a valve for the other zones? In other words, is this one valve supposed to be used to purge air for the entire system or should I attempt to use the Flo Control Valve?

At this point I'm going to wait until the temp drops tonight and then turn on the upper floor thermostat and hopefully get some water movement to test the release valve at the baseboard.

I'm tempted to just purchase one replacement pump and then test it on both the middle and upper zones. If that's the case I'll purchase and install a second one since I'm getting sporadic results from the upper floor pump now.
 
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Old 10-10-12, 08:05 PM
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Sounds like you have low pressure in the boiler. Possibly air also.....

Where is your air purger on the boiler????????????? Pics? You have not shown us this...

Add a little water to the boiler by lifting the fill valve handle. Watch the gauge. If the gauge does not move in 10 seconds stop.

Raise it to about 16 psi if you can.

Do this on a cool boiler...
 
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Old 10-10-12, 08:41 PM
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Do these help at all?

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Is the air purger in the back left of the shot below?

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Old 10-10-12, 09:36 PM
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Air purgers look like this and should be on the pipings somewhere.


Maid-O\'-Mist® - Automatic Air Valves - Jacobus Steam Vents - Float Control Valves - Saddle Valves - Illinois

Or this with a vent on top. Expansion tank under...

Taco-Hvac: Air Scoops®
 
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Old 10-10-12, 10:40 PM
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Is this the vent?
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Attachment 4229

From the top cover:

Attachment 4230

I guess tomorrow I'll get a pressure gauge and check that. Tonight I turned the thermostat up to 80 on the top floor; the pump turned on, got hot, the pipe below it was hot, above it was warm but quickly cooled several feet down the line though it felt as though water was being displaced/moved. The upper floor baseboard heaters remained cool to the touch and when I opened the valve at the end of the the loop upstairs I got no air or water though it felt downstairs on the return loop that I could feel water moving in the pipe.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 04:47 AM
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No that's not it. Should be around the expansion tank for the boiler. Thats the relief valve. [NJT edit - the PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE, a SAFETY valve]

Take a pic of this device on the baseboard.

Also take more wide angle shots of the boiler.

You do not see anything like these around the boiler?

Taco-Hvac: Air Scoops®

Maid-O\'-Mist® - Automatic Air Valves - Jacobus Steam Vents - Float Control Valves - Saddle Valves - Illinois
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-11-12 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 10-11-12, 07:35 AM
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This is the valve on the baseboard:

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And this is between the expansion tank, boiler, and hot water heater.
 
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Last edited by zubaloo; 10-11-12 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 10-11-12, 08:33 AM
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Thats a saddle valve. Dont touch it. May be corroded shut and the pierceing pin may have broke.

Next you seem to be hiding something.....

Take some pics farom a far. Up down and all around. You keep taking pics of the same area. The three pumps, and the fill valve....etc.


Anything look like a propane tank or similar? Up in the floor joists above???? Hanging from something? No air bleeders like in my links I posted?

We cant help if we cant see.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 09:22 AM
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Upper portion of the space:
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Lower portion of the space:

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Old 10-11-12, 10:05 AM
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Ahhhh....there it is....LOL

You will not have any air bleeders on that system.


First off you need to verify your pressure gauge.

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html

Turn boiler off.


Then you need to shut off the boiler feed and drain that tank completely in the ceiling there. It may take a long time.

Before you drain shut all valves to the zones to isolate the system. This way you do not drain all the zones.

I see the line going to the tank may be back pitched. You will need to fix that if it is. That may be part of the issue.


It may be beneficial to take that tank out of service and install a bladder type with an air purger. And while your at it remove that saddle valve.

If this seems over your head, it probably is and a pro should be called in.
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 10-11-12 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 10-11-12, 11:48 AM
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Thanks. I did raise and lower the black top of the valve in the middle of the shot of the upper area. This increased the pressure according to the gauge on the boiler and I'm now getting hot water running throughout all three zones. All three pumps are working.

I will get a more accurate pressure gauge and talk to my plumber about possibly replacing that tank. What is the term for it, a displacement tank or what?

What do you mean by back pitched? Flowing upward?

What should the pressure be?

I will shut off the feed to the boiler, shut the lines to the zones (does it matter if it's the valve above or below each pump?), attach a hose to the tank and drain it.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 03:21 PM
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If your existing tank is properly piped to the system, AND the pipe is pitching UPWARD all the way to the tank, AND it's not rusting out, THEN there is no reason to replace it.

Properly piped to the system means that there must be an AIR COLLECTION DEVICE which that pipe comes from. Air in your system MUST go BACK to the tank which means it must be caught by something and passed back to the tank.

What do you mean by back pitched? Flowing upward?
Yes... air has to be able to float upward, all the way back to the tank. You may be able to get some flex out of that pipe and pull it upward at the low spot with a piece of wire to the floor joist above. It looks like there is already a piece of steel strapping supporting the pipe, but still a low spot. You might not be able to get the pitch you need... Put a level on the pipe and make sure it's UP all the way to the tank.

The pipe pitching UPWARD is important because if any of it is downward, or even level, the air won't travel up to the tank where it belongs. It will be trapped in the pipe.
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-11-12 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 10-11-12, 03:25 PM
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Thats a saddle valve. Dont touch it. May be corroded shut and the pierceing pin may have broke.
I tend to agree. I've seen this done before. It's the cheap way out to adding an air bleeder, but it is NOT a good idea! When those are installed, basically what happens is that the valve itself drills a HOLE in the pipe. If you open it and it's messed up somehow, you might not get it closed again and then you would be in a right pickle!

Piercing valves are not a good idea in ANY of the applications where they are used.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 03:35 PM
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If my eyes are seeing properly, the pipe to the tank from the system is that black one that goes back into the distance.


I would like to see where that pipe is connected to the rest of the system.


I believe I spy a valve on that pipe? If so, you can only close THAT valve. As long as you isolate the tank from the rest of the system you will be fine.

As you drain that tank, you will get water, and then it will STOP. Don't be fooled, the tank is NOT drained at that point.

A vacuum, or suction will build up in the tank and not allow total draining.

Same idea as when you put a finger over a drinking straw and lift it out of the drink. The drink will stay in the straw until you release your finger.

If you use a small diameter hose coiled all around on the floor this will DEFINITELY occur.

You could use a bucket and no hose, but it will take many buckets... the open valve will probably 'gulp' air as the water comes out to relieve the suction.

Sometimes just loosening the hose on the valve will allow it to suck air.

Some guys use a small air compressor and blow air back into the tank to break the vacuum.

Some guys blow into the end of the hose ... YUCK! can you say BACTERIA?

However you do it, the tank needs to be EMPTY when you reopen that valve, and the tank WILL partially refill with water... that is normal. Normal operation that tank should be about half full of water, and half full of air. The air will be compressed in the tank to the pressure of the water in the system.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 03:50 PM
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I think there may be a leak here...

Is that white crusty corrosion around that tee fitting on the right side?

 
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Old 10-11-12, 05:42 PM
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The pipe leading into the expansion tank is definitely at a good upward pitch. The tank is being emptied now. Here're a couple more photos to show where that black pipe fits into the system. Thanks for you advice and explanation. The bottom photo shows it as it feeds into the tank and the above as it angles 90 degrees into the end of the loops, for lack of a better phrase. Name:  020.jpg
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Old 10-11-12, 05:56 PM
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OK, fine, but where does it go after that? You still not showing where it is connected to the boiler piping. All that pic shows is the supply water to the boiler teeing into the line up to the tank.

Where does it go to on the left side of that tee?

You added another pic of the white crusty stuff... is that what it is? If so, it still looks like a leak to me.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 06:05 PM
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Check the top photo in post #18. If follows across and down into the side of the boiler.

The white on the the black pipe is plumer's tape. On the other line it's built up corrosion that I'll address.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 06:40 PM
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follows across and down into the side of the boiler.
Thats what he needs to see. Take a pic down the side of the boiler. Is it in its own tapping or tied into the supply down there?

I see bypass piping between the supply and return, but the tank piping goes down below that.

 
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Old 10-11-12, 06:56 PM
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I see bypass piping between the supply and return,
Primary/Secondary closely spaced tees. Note the pump inside the boiler.

This is wrong too... one should NEVER install a pump with the motor UP like this:



Yes... it will pump, but it's wrong.

And what's up with those wire nuts at the left side of the pic? Are those the AC feed wires into the boiler? If so, that's a shame.

What is the model number of the boiler?
 
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Old 10-11-12, 07:47 PM
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this is wrong too... one should NEVER install a pump with the motor UP like this:
Troop thats the top of the boiler. The pump is horizontal.... The exp. tank piping is to the left.

I worked on a few of these. I have the manual somewhere. Should be on the McClain site. I think its the 2 series. It has like a vortex burner that shoots the flame with a fan, or something like that.

The HSI were a pain to get to. Almost like a old larrs. Gas valves for this are like $600 my cost.


 
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Old 10-11-12, 07:48 PM
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Also, if I'm not mistaken, you are missing the inlet air hose from the outside air supply into the burner. There's been some jackleg hacks working on that system over the years.

What are you doing with the condensate drain hose? Where does that go?
 
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Old 10-11-12, 07:51 PM
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Troop thats the top of the boiler. The pump is horizontal....
Ohhhhhh... now I see it...

I'm lookin' at the manual and thinking to myself, WTF ?

OK, then I take back what I said about pump and the inlet air hose, it might be there, just can't see it in the pic.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 07:55 PM
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Also, if I'm not mistaken, you are missing the inlet air hose from the outside air supply into the burner
LOL...I think that was optional. Had a little black intake with a screen down low. You could add it if you wanted.


But there should be a Tee on coming out the boilerflue right out the boiler with a condensate line on the tee.. If its not there or have a trap.....CO poison city.

To the OP do you have a CO detector?



 
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Old 10-11-12, 09:29 PM
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Yes, I have a CO detector. Here's a shot of the wall side of the boiler with the dropped pipe entering. This is an exterior wall, by the way. There's an air hose leading into the boiler from outside and a drain hose too. Fill me in on anything I need to know about this system. This is a cabin/house in the mountains on a well/septic system with a water softener; built in '72.

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Last edited by zubaloo; 10-11-12 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 10-11-12, 09:56 PM
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A few more from between the wall and the side of the boiler.

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Old 10-12-12, 08:44 AM
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OK, GV series 2. That's what I thought, wanted to make sure.

I guess you don't have the manual? Here's a link, print and save:

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multim.../gv2manual.pdf
 
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Old 10-12-12, 08:57 AM
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It appears that the expansion tank is connected to the boiler as per the manual, so I guess that part is OK... they must have some kind of 'air scoop' built into the boiler that catches air and passes it to the tank (or vent if you had the 'other' type of expansion tank).

What I'm not real keen on is what appears to be an exhaust pipe in very questionable condition. Since that system basically operates under pressure, the exhaust needs to be SEALED 100% all the way out of the building. It doesn't look like yours will pass muster there. I would get more CO detectors if I were you. Ones that will wake you from a drunken stupor if need be.

Is something leaking? what is up with the red rusty streaking all down the side of the boiler where the pipes connect? I noticed some rust and stuff under the top cover in the other pics... maybe something was/is leaking on top of the boiler and running down the side?

Is that condensate hose even connected to the boiler? Does is just dump onto the floor?
 
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Old 10-12-12, 09:00 AM
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OK, GV series 2. That's what I thought, wanted to make sure.
Says GV5. I was wrong.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4286[/ATTACH]
 
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Old 10-12-12, 09:04 AM
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You may have some leaks in this pic too:



The middle circ looks like the bottom flange is leaking.

The electric cable to the left circ is rusty... where's the water coming from that caused that?

Are any of the drain valves dripping?
 
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Old 10-12-12, 01:20 PM
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I recently replaced the hot water heater that is seated next to the boiler; it was leaking out of the top and got a little bit of water on the pumps/boiler. I'll definitely look into leaks, though.

I don't know what the cut length of hose is doing since it's just fed outside. The other hose also feeds outside.
 
 

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