Rewiring boiler zones, couple questions

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Old 10-09-12, 11:27 AM
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Rewiring boiler zones, couple questions

Just a quick background info;
My boiler has seen many retrofits. Within the last 3-4yrs, it's DHW was disconnected, and an electric hotwater tank was installed for DHW. The boiler was never rewired, so it was setup to maintain 210-220'F water
I have since reduce the water temp to ~170-180'F.
The two zone t-stats are directly connected to thier zone relay box, and control their own circulation pump. There is no connected from the relay boxes to the aquastat.

Now that the history is out of the way, two questions;

1. What gauge of wire should I use for the t-stats?
The cables (2wires) currently run to the relay boxes which are mounted ~10ft from the aquastat.

2. Based on the following schemitic, I'm understanding that either zone t-stat can call the boiler to fire, but am not sure if they will stop the boiler when the demand for heat has been satisfied. Am I correct in thinking that the t-stat does not stop the boiler, and the boiler simply shuts off when it reaches the high temp?
(page 7 of the following PDF)https://customer.honeywell.com/resou...0s/95-6571.pdf
 
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Old 10-09-12, 12:06 PM
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1. What gauge of wire should I use for the t-stats? 18 awg, low voltage wiring, it's a red & white wire pair. sometimes, there is a common which requires a 3rd wire, so check the existing circuit to see if you need that 3rd wire.

2. i didn't review the schematic, but Im pretty sure the boiler will fire up to 180degF, whether the zone t-stat is satisfied or not.
 
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Old 10-09-12, 01:13 PM
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The two zone t-stats are directly connected to thier zone relay box, and control their own circulation pump. There is no connected from the relay boxes to the aquastat.
Does not make sense. If nothing is connected to the aquastat then the boiler would just cycle off the low limit.

The circs would come on and dump cold water in the boiler. 10 degrees below the Lo the boiler will kick on. If the differential was 25 the boiler will kick off 15 degrees above Lo.

Example:
Lo 155
On 145
off 170

Seems the high would do nothing. I may be wrong but thats my assumption.

If true I assume you are going to rewire?

Trooper is good at this stuff, but I would assume running a t stat to T/TV of the aquastat. You would eliminate one of the relays you have. Then tie that circ to C1/C2.

Then connect one relay for the other t stat to ZR/ZC in the aquastat.

But again wait for Trooper or someone that eat, drinks and sleeps wiring...




 
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Old 10-09-12, 01:51 PM
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lawrosa,
It is how I described it. Each t-stat has it's own relay box. Each circulation pump connects to it's coresponding relay box. Nothing connects these relay boxes to the aquastat, which is why I am rewiring the whole mess.
As it stands right now, the boiler is set to ~175'F on the high, and the differential to 25. When the water in the boiler hit's the low temp the boiler turns on and when it hits it's high, turns off.
I'm going to wire the main floor t-stat to the aquastat and the second floor t-stat through the relay box to the aquastat (as per the diagram in that PDF).

What I am thinking (based on that diagram) is that the t-stat will make the call for heat, firing the boiler, but when the demand is gone, the boiler will still remain fired until it hits it's high level.
Am I reading this incorrectly?
 
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Old 10-09-12, 01:56 PM
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Pictures....

The high and low markings on the dials are off. The high is in reality ~175'F according to the gauge.

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Old 10-09-12, 02:56 PM
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But there is nothing connected to the aquastat. How would it work off the high limit? Whats firing the boiler? I believe you are only working off the low limit as it is, and that's all that is firing the boiler. Even though the low is set for 135f it seems something is off. Your gauge???

A quick test is to turn the Hi up and don't touch the low. I bet it will still kick off at the 175F.

You probably need a new gauge. Did you get one?


Since you have a relay in the aquastat you can do away with one relay box.

Like I said as far as the schematic goes, hook one t stat to t/TV in the aqquastat. Then hook that circ to c1/c2-b2. That take care of that zone and circ.

Then you need to connect ZC of the aquastat to terminal #2 of the relay and ZR of the aquastat to terminal #4 of the relay. That zone is done

Then you can turn the LO all the way down to 100f and the Diff to 10. Then set the Hi accordingly.

Although this is all my assumption, and please wait for a second opinion.
 
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Old 10-09-12, 03:09 PM
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The high level control does work. I turned the shutoff temp down m 220 to about 175. The gauge might be a bit off, but I did use my thermal gun and the temp at the top of the pipe exiting the boiler was about 10'F lower then the gauge read which with the heat transfer from the water to the copper pipe exterior, I would say the gauge is within a few degrees of what it reads.
Hope that makes sense.
 
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Old 10-09-12, 03:27 PM
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The high level control does work.
OK. Not sure then.

Sorry I cant help you. I probably confused things more....Hopefully the boiler guys will respond, because its kind of bugging me now....LOL
 
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Old 10-09-12, 04:22 PM
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My understanding of the setup is the aquastat is controlling the boiler based on the temp probe. When the temp hits the low, fires. When it hits the high, shuts the burner off. It does not communicate or take into account the t-stats or circulation pumps operations. If I didn't kill the power to the boiler this spring, it would have kept the water hot all summer.
Guess I'll be adding a relay box to the scrap pile beside the old expansion tank and a control valve. If I could find a use for this stuff... It all works.
 
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Old 10-09-12, 05:25 PM
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I'm here... but working on another right now... I'll get back witchy'all in a bit... and it's din din time.
 
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Old 10-10-12, 05:39 PM
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When the temp hits the low, fires. When it hits the high, shuts the burner off
No... the other Mike is right, it should not be responding to the HIGH limit at all.

With no heat call to the boiler (no wires on T / TV), it should be responding only to the LOW and DIFF settings.

Another option would be to scrap BOTH of the existing relays and install a Taco SR panel.

Let's see if we can first figger out why the boiler is responding to the HIGH limit.
 
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Old 10-10-12, 05:49 PM
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With the settings shown on your dials, the boiler should be firing ON at 125F and OFF at 145F

Here's how it's supposed to work.

There is a FIXED, NON adjustable NEGATIVE Differential on BOTH the HIGH AND the LOW. But forget about the HIGH for now...

So, no matter what the DIFF dial is set at, the boiler will ALWAYS fire when the temp is 10 BELOW the LOW setpoint.

Now, the DIFF is kinda confusing... but here goes:

The DIFF is ADDITIVE, and it will ADD to the LOW SETPOINT MINUS THE 10 FIXED DIFF.

So, in the example above, with your current settings, that would be:

LOW MINUS 10 PLUS 20

Remember that the MINUS 10 is ALWAYS there...

In formula form:

Bottom end of range is (burner ON):

LOW - 10 . ALWAYS. No matter what the DIFF is set to.

Top of range is (burner OFF):

( LOW - 10 ) + DIFF

Makinsense?
 
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Old 10-10-12, 05:53 PM
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No... the other Mike is right, it should not be responding to the HIGH limit at all.
I figured that but I think either his gauge is off or that aquastat aint in the well properly. Or the capillary is bad?



 
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Old 10-10-12, 05:56 PM
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did use my thermal gun and the temp at the top of the pipe exiting the boiler was about 10'F lower then the gauge read which with the heat transfer from the water to the copper pipe exterior,
You won't get an accurate reading with an IR temp gun on copper pipe. The emissivity of the copper will whack the reading. Paint a spot on the pipe with flat black paint and measure that instead. Black electrical tape works in a pinch.
 
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Old 10-10-12, 05:57 PM
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I figured that but I think either his gauge is off or that aquastat aint in the well properly. Or the capillary is bad?
Yup. Something is wrong... or being misunderstood.

With nothing to T and TV that high limit should never be reached.
 
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Old 10-10-12, 05:59 PM
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NMike,

On that white block, under the red and yellow wires, below the holes that they are in, there is a place for a jumper to be installed. Is there a jumper installed there?
 
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Old 10-10-12, 06:02 PM
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A quick test is to turn the Hi up and don't touch the low.
Agreed.

Go ahead and turn it all the way to max.

I bet nothing will happen. Nothing will change.

No beer riding on this bet, just a friendly betcha...
 
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Old 10-10-12, 06:29 PM
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I figured that but I think either his gauge is off or that aquastat aint in the well properly. Or the capillary is bad?
I would say any of the above. The gauge is going to be replaced, need to hit up a heating place as the big orange doesn't carry boiler parts here. I haven't touched the aquastat's position in the well, but given everything else... who knows. As for the capillary, not 100% sure what that is.

On that white block, under the red and yellow wires, below the holes that they are in, there is a place for a jumper to be installed. Is there a jumper installed there?
There is no jumper installed.

Agreed.

Go ahead and turn it all the way to max.

I bet nothing will happen. Nothing will change.

No beer riding on this bet, just a friendly betcha...
I'll take you up on that. Won't be able to mess with it tonight though. Dealing with a sick household tonight (including myself).
 
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Old 10-10-12, 07:07 PM
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Won't be able to mess with it tonight though. Dealing with a sick household tonight (including myself)
Hope y'all fee better soon! ( Hint: Jack Daniels can help! or maybe up yer way Crown Royal might be the tonic of choice! )

By the way, it is _possible_ that if the a'stat is pooched in a certain way that the High limit COULD be active still. for example, if the LOW turns ON ok, but doesn't turn OFF properly... then the HIGH limit WOULD (and should) take over.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 06:27 AM
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Love the Crown Royal suggestion. That and the hot tub at the other house would knock the a cold right out of a person.

Anyway, back on topic...
Definitely looks like I have a boiler system that is in worse shape then I thought it was. A new aquastat is not in the budget just yet (money is tight for a bit) so I'll have to work with what I have. I'm going to squeeze a new gauge in the budget so I know what I am actually playing with.

Hopefully this weekend I'll get the time to wire the aquastat and t-stats correctly.
Using the PDF referenced above (page 7), and the photos (above), connect the main floor t-stat and circulation pump to the aquastat directly.
Second floor (zone 2) t-stat and circulation pump will get wired to the relay box (which I'll need to rewire I think), and the relay box gets connected to the aquastat (as per the diagram on page 7 of the PDF).

The aquastat settings...
No jumper installed (correct?)
Low temp 150'F
Differential 20'F
High temp 170'F (when does this come into play?)
PSI ~20PSI hot at boiler


Does this sound correct? Should I consider a different setting(s)?
Did I miss anything?
 
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Old 10-11-12, 07:14 AM
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The aquastat settings...
No jumper installed (correct?)
Low temp 150'F
Differential 20'F
High temp 170'F (when does this come into play?)
PSI ~20PSI hot at boiler


Does this sound correct? Should I consider a different setting(s)?
Did I miss anything?


Is this your suggested settings after your re-wire?

After your rewire , if it were mine, I would set:

Hi 160
Lo 100
diff 10

If the home seems like its not heating then turn the hi up in 5 degree increments.

You said you were over radiated? Like my self I am doing 160f this year. Already made a world of difference in comfort level. Will need to check my savings in fuel as it gets colder.

But then again I am cold start boiler.

Trooper may suggest a way to disable the lo on that unit but not sure the implications for saftey reasons. Plus we are not sure if the A stat is toast......

Hope you feel better,

" Stay thirsty my friend "
 
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Old 10-11-12, 08:23 AM
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I have the info regarding regarding disabling the low. Will probably do that when I rewire everything.

Worst comes to worse, if I get it all rewired and the aquastat is toast, it should be a whole lot easier to move everything over to the new one.
The only catch with this entire thing right now is the relay boxes are White Rogers units. Will need to look at the wiring, figure out if it's internals have been tampered with, and go from there.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 03:14 PM
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NMike, have you mentioned the model number of the WR relays? I'd like to see what they are before we instruct you to toss them...
 
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Old 10-11-12, 04:03 PM
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You like that brand of relay box that much?
I'll try to remember to grab the model number off the box. Nothing to it really. Only a relay and step up transformer.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 04:16 PM
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You like that brand of relay box that much?
Talking about post #11 and the Taco SR panel?

Any of the brands of the same basic thing would work. They all do the same thing really. I just mentioned it as an option, and Taco here in the states seems easiest to find on the shelf. Maybe the Argo up there in C eh? N eh? D eh? is more readily available?

What I'm wondering about the existing is if they have an unused set of contacts available. Some models do... if yours do then you got it made in the shade.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 04:24 PM
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Mine has 5 screw terminals. Two are currently used by the t-stat, one beside the t-stat is labelled "com", and the other two are on the cover and are currently not connevted to anything in the box or outside. I'm assuming the wires for the two contacts are connected to the pump, behind the relay which I can't see without moving stuff. Thought I had a picture on my phone of one of the boxes, but couldn't find it. Will post the info tonight when we get home.
 
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Old 10-11-12, 05:07 PM
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Will post the info tonight when we get home.
If you are sick, you should be home in bed young man!
 
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Old 10-12-12, 06:28 AM
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Had a late meeting yesturday evening, so was later going home (It's a 45 minute drive home).

Anyway, back on topic... Here are a few pictures of one of the relay boxes (both are the same). I didn't get around to taking the top off the box as I was running late getting out the door this morning.

I unfortunately didn't catch a good photo of all the contact locations. The two screw down terminals on the cover are not connected to anything on the outside or under the cover (suspect this was a modification by the installer). I believe the terminals on the cover are labled "W" and "Y" (could be incorrect on the "Y" label).
The relay boxes have three cables total going to them. One is the power in, the other is the T-stat, and the last is the power to the circulation pump.
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Simple side shot with model information
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Cropped picture of the information for easier reading.
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Simple side shot. The picture is rotated to 270' to make reading the label easier.
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Old 10-12-12, 08:29 AM
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Im confused. R/G go to the t stat? Thats a SPDT right?
 
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Old 10-12-12, 08:47 AM
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OK, that tells me what I need to know about the relays, and unfortunately they are "SINGLE pole double throw" ( SPDT ) relays, meaning that there is only one set of switching contacts and those are being used to turn the pump on/off.

I don't think the installer added that second terminal strip, you can see on the label that it shows W and Y without anything connected. My guess is that they can be used as 'options'... for example, if the relay is used for LOW VOLTAGE switching, the internal contacts could be wired to them. As it is, your contacts are switching HIGH VOLTAGE and you would not want that exposed on an external terminal strip.

Joisey Mike's idea of wiring will work in this case, but would require re-routing the pump wires and such, and chances are they would need to be extended because they won't reach where you need them.

So, instead of that, I might suggest yet another option.

You could replace BOTH of the relays with a " DOUBLE pole double throw " ( DPDT ) variety that has the extra set of relay contacts available. You could also use a " DOUBLE pole SINGLE throw " ( DPST ) as well, since you do not need to have the ' normally closed ' contact for this application.

Your wires would probably be long enough in this case, because you are simply swapping to a different relay mounted in the same location. This may be the easiest solution to implement from a labor and materials standpoint.

This EXTRA set of relay contacts would then be wired with thermostat wire (both sets in parallel) down to the T and TV terminals on the aquastat.

So the new relay would do TWO things now. Turn on the pump just as before, but the new set of contacts would fire the boiler.

This would be essentially the same thing that an ' SR ' style of control panel would do, but with less re-wiring most likely. Unless the two existing relays were right next to each other and wires were long enough, you would still be faced with wires that were too short.

There's a number of relays that would be suitable for this:

TACO SR-501

SR501-4 - Taco SR501-4 - 1 Zone Switching Relay

Honeywell R8845

R8845U1003 - Honeywell R8845U1003 - Universal Switching Relay w/ Internal Transformer

And more... these two are generally readily available.
 
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Old 10-12-12, 08:49 AM
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Im confused. R/G go to the t stat? Thats a SPDT right?
Ja, das ist richtig; Oui, c'est exact; Si, e correcto.
 
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Old 10-12-12, 09:13 AM
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Cable lengths will not be an issue.
I've got ~30ft of the 18/2 t-stat cable, probably the same length of 12/2 or 10/2 power cable (can't remember what gauge it was).
Unfortunately I don't have a large selection of relays in my electronics tool box, so the likely hood of having 1 or more of the correct type of relays would be slim.

I'll review your ideas in your post above and go from there. Only read it over quickly at the moment.
 
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Old 10-26-12, 09:10 AM
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Going to be finally doing this job this weekend. The two relay boxes are reasonably close and can be moved side by side in this case. I have plenty of wire and spare boxes if I need a box for splicing wires.

So, using the existing two relay boxes, I would run the t-stat to both boxes (R/G contacts).
Leave the pump wired as is in the one box.
Remove the transformer from the second box and connect those now available contacts to the T and TV terminals on the aquastat?

Sound correct?
 
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Old 10-26-12, 09:21 AM
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Are you doing this ?

Like I said as far as the schematic goes, hook one t stat to t/TV in the aqquastat. Then hook that circ to c1/c2-b2. That take care of that zone and circ.

Then you need to connect ZC of the aquastat to terminal #2 of the relay and ZR of the aquastat to terminal #4 of the relay. That zone is done

Then you can turn the LO all the way down to 100f and the Diff to 10. Then set the Hi accordingly.

 
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Old 10-26-12, 09:37 AM
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Yes, I'll be running one zone straight to the aquastat, and the other as described in my post just above.
The only thing is, I made a mistake and I believe the transformer has to stay as these relays more then likely require the higher voltage to pull the relay.
 
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Old 10-26-12, 10:03 AM
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I think you need to get one relay. Those relays will not work because you need to hook the one to ZR/ZC in the aquastat. ( Did not have the terminals right?)

But I need to think about it.

You just need to have those relays fire the boiler. I think to ZR in the aquastat.

I don't think the installer added that second terminal strip, you can see on the label that it shows W and Y without anything connected. My guess is that they can be used as 'options'... for example, if the relay is used for LOW VOLTAGE switching, the internal contacts could be wired to them. As it is, your contacts are switching HIGH VOLTAGE and you would not want that exposed on an external terminal strip.


Open the box and take a pic.
 
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Old 10-26-12, 11:02 AM
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I'll grab some pictures when I get home. Hopefully I have all the components needed as our little hick town won't have the parts and I'll have to drive back to the city to get what I need.

Really stupid question reviewing the diagram for the relay box and the page 7 of the PDF of the OP...
ZR and ZC in the PDF, is this looking for a power source/signal or is simply looking for closed contact (like a on/off switch)?

DPST would make sense if ZR and ZC are simply looking for closed contact.
 
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Old 10-26-12, 12:40 PM
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Well I looked and found the relay in Canada is a DPST

http://www.amresupply.com/file/136274/

So give me some time to look some more. Trooper or others may know off the top of their heads to get you wired up.
 
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Old 10-26-12, 01:01 PM
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Wait!!! Looking at your pic and this here, the w and y are on the side..... I did not see that before from your pics.

I think you can hook them up to TT in the aquastat but see if they are connected. As Trooper stated here I do not think he knew they were there.

But from the docs its a DPST

don't think the installer added that second terminal strip, you can see on the label that it shows W and Y without anything connected. My guess is that they can be used as 'options'... for example, if the relay is used for LOW VOLTAGE switching, the internal contacts could be wired to them. As it is, your contacts are switching HIGH VOLTAGE and you would not want that exposed on an external terminal strip.


 
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Old 10-26-12, 01:25 PM
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Based on the second picture in my last post with pics, it states its a SPDT, which in this application, I don't know why it would be.
The W and Y on the side are not connected, so if the ZC and ZR on the aquastat is looking for a simple close loop, I could wire the W and Y in parallel to the R and G contacts on the one relay box, then run a wire from those to the R and G contact on the second box to control the relay that will open and close the contacts to ZC and ZR on the aquastat.

This should all work if the ZC and ZR is looking for a close loop to fire the boiler. I'll start checking things with he multi-meter tomorrow. Want to do it tonight, but apparently we are going over to a friend's place to play cards, so I will be in no shape to do it when I get home.
I will get pictures though and post them before we go over for cards.
 
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