Gas fired hot water boiler not burning (Pilot light on)

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  #41  
Old 10-24-12, 12:50 AM
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Yes, it is the relay that is the problem. No, it does not matter to which screw the wires (X1, X2) connect. No, there is nothing wrong with the gas valve as has yet to be determined. I'll have a safety check for you to try later.

Mike Lawrosa has been giving you excellent advise. You need to dial back the aquastat, the control to the right of the temperature and pressure gauge, to a maximum of 180. I don't know if that particular aquastat has an adjustable differential but if it does then set it at the maximum.

You MIGHT be able to temporarily "fix" the relay if the plastic cover in the upper left-hand corner comes off. Turn OFF the power switch before trying to remove the cover. DON'T try too hard or you may break it beyond repair. If you get the cover off take a picture or two and post them. If you can't get the cover off then you need to replace that relay and transformer and there are several possibilities that will have a cost from around $20 to $30 dollars to over $100.

Regarding the circulator...try lifting the outer end of the motor slightly when it is running and see if the noise changes. If it does it is probably an alignment problem. Also look at the rubber rings that hold the motor in the cradle, you will only be able to see the outboard ring unless you take it apart. If the outboard ring is oil soaked then it is in need of replacement. Try also oiling the bearing housing, the main part of the pump forward of the motor. Bell & Gossett recommends a 20 weight non-detergent oil but my experience with these pumps is that any oil works. Add at least twenty drops and more won't really hurt as it will just run out and make a mess. I agree with Mike that next summer you should replace that pump with a Taco 007 or maybe a Grundfos 15-58 (I think that is the number).
 
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  #42  
Old 10-24-12, 07:09 AM
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Relay Pictures

Hello Furd,

I was able to get the plastic cover off from the upper right corner in relay. It just comes off after a slight wiggle.

i have also turn the aquastat to 180 where the matching arrow is as well.

Please let me know what the next step is, and what parts needs to be purchased.

Thanks,
 
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  #43  
Old 10-24-12, 07:17 AM
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Looks like the issue is here.
 
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  #44  
Old 10-24-12, 07:45 AM
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More Reply pictures

Thanks lawrosa. I took more close up pictures of the burnt area. (I didnt even notice it when i took the pic)

I also want to post an update. This morning, i turn on the thermostat, and just the On/Off switch for the boiler --- and Voila, the burner just fired automatically. Without the need of crossing X1 / X2 wires.

I think may be X1 and x2 did not touch the contact point correctly previously and caused this whole issue. However, if this relay switch is about to go bad, i would still like to change it. Please advise.

Now, the temp/pressure gauge has temp staying at 180 degrees after i modified the aquastat to 180. But the pressure remains at 28 PSI.

Q1) I read from internet, that i can use a tire pressure reader to stick to the tip of expansion tank, to get a better reading of the pressure - is it correct?

Q2) I do not have any oils for the circulator, what type of oil? Can i use 2 cycle bar/chain oil that i have with my chain saw? I saw the manufacturer manual where i can add the drops, there are total of 3 places. (See picture attached). Please advise if its correct.

Q3) i would also like to change it to a taco 007 since its maintenance / oil free. is this something simple to do, or does it require welding?

Q4) Furd, please provide your suggestions on the safety check on gas valve which you mentioned yesterday so i can make sure its working properly. The last thing i want is no heat in cold days!

Thanks!!!
 
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Last edited by takkie; 10-24-12 at 08:53 AM.
  #45  
Old 10-24-12, 02:39 PM
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I don't think that burnt contact is the one for the burner. I believe that's the one for the circulator pump. The one with the redundant double contacts is probably the one for the burner. There is no way that 750 millivolts is going to spark the contacts like that!

It actually appears that someone shorted that contact to ground with a screwdriver, or the side of the relay cover... probably skeert the heck out of you didn't it Takkie?

I would hit the local Radio Shack and pick up a can of Caig De-Oxit Gold and clean those relay contacts for starters. Do NOT use anything abrasive! NO SANDPAPER, NO FILES! That is not the way to clean relay contacts! Soak a piece of shirt cardboard, cereal box, matchbook, with the contact cleaner and slide between the contacts. Hold them closed with a finger and rub the cardboard between them.

TURN THE POWER OFF FIRST! 120VAC INSIDE! YOU CAN BE KILLED!
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-24-12 at 03:04 PM.
  #46  
Old 10-24-12, 03:05 PM
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But the pressure remains at 28 PSI.
Drain some water out of the boiler drain. Should be below the circ. Drain until about 12 psi shows on the gauge. Do this with a somewhat cool boiler.

From your first post you messed with the fill valve. It may be adding to much pressure. It should be set to fill 12-15 psi cold.

To check the expansion tank, yes with a tire gauge. But you need to take the pressure off the system to do so. You would need to isolate the zones. I see a ball valve and a gate valve on the return. I would be leery of touching the gate valve. They like to break. Then you would be in a world of c#@p. ( Exp tank can cause high psi also if pressure is not adjusted correctly.)

Also I don't see whats on the feed in relation to valve to shut. Possibly post better overall pics.

Oil

L23401 - Bell & Gossett L23401 - Oil Tube, 1.5 oz.


Change to taco 007 you may need to adjust the space between the flanges. Best to leave for a summer project. You reuse the flanges on the return piping.

Pump.

007-F5 - Taco 007-F5 - 007 Cast Iron Circulator, 1/25 HP

As far as a new relay, I would say this here but get feed back from the others. This is for powerpile operation.

R8845U1003 - Honeywell R8845U1003 - Universal Switching Relay w/ Internal Transformer
 
  #47  
Old 10-24-12, 03:11 PM
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Q1) I read from internet, that i can use a tire pressure reader to stick to the tip of expansion tank, to get a better reading of the pressure - is it correct?
Read this, there are instructions for checking and charging expansion tank.

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...sion-tank.html

Did anyone tell you not to trust your boiler gauge? or did you check it already?

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html
 
  #48  
Old 10-24-12, 04:05 PM
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If, as you say, your pilot has electronic ignition, there will still be a flame sensor to prove that the pilot is lighted. Until then, the main gas valve will be inhibited. I think you need to call a professional serviceman.

I agree with Furd, your boiler installation is a mess.
 
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Old 10-24-12, 04:37 PM
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If, as you say, your pilot has electronic ignition, there will still be a flame sensor to prove that the pilot is lighted. Until then, the main gas valve will be inhibited. I think you need to call a professional serviceman.

I agree with Furd, your boiler installation is a mess.


Huh ?????? Gilmore are you responding to the correct thread? Have you read this thread???


 
  #50  
Old 10-24-12, 04:50 PM
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When the system is up and running, we need to talk about the discharge piping on this pressure relief valve. That is wrong in so many ways. That BETTER NOT be a PLUG I see on the end of that pipe! If that IS a plug, you should know that your boiler can EXPLODE and KILL PEOPLE!

Ya know what? that should be taken care of BEFORE you fire the burner. If that lets go it's going to spray boiling/steam all over the electrics... and worse, all over anyone standing in the vicinity. It is absolutely 100% against code, even if it is NOT capped!



I would not want to be the one sitting on the crapper that is most likely next to this boiler and have that relief valve blow off ... I guess I wouldn't have to worry about having the crap skeert outta me though.
 
  #51  
Old 10-24-12, 04:58 PM
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Is this flue pipe as close to combustible materials as it appears?

Wow... if it is, and it wasn't mentioned in a home inspection report... SHAME SHAME ON THAT INSPECTOR.

 
  #52  
Old 10-24-12, 07:18 PM
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hi.

the pressure relief valve actually does work. We are talking about the bell shape thing thats connected after the Green color valve, right?

I had tried to release pressure against it, and water came out.
 
  #53  
Old 10-24-12, 07:21 PM
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Is this flue pipe as close to combustible materials as it appears?

Wow... if it is, and it wasn't mentioned in a home inspection report... SHAME SHAME ON THAT INSPECTOR.
Hi,

whcih pipe is the flue pipe pls? And where do you see combustible material?

Thanks
 
  #54  
Old 10-24-12, 07:30 PM
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Takkie possibly you can add your location to your profile.

Also the flue pipe is the chimney. There needs to be certain clearance from walls and such. 12" I believe. Unless its double wall. Then 1". Yours does not look like double wall.

Also in the pic it looked like the pipe that exits the relief valve was capped. But if you get water out then the pic is deceiving is all.

How did you make out with the pressure issue?
 
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Old 10-24-12, 07:48 PM
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Clearance of single wall flue pipe to combustibles is 18", down to 6" with double wall. That pipe looks right up against the wall and jammed into that corner... I don't even want to think about where it goes after that. That's a fire hazard.

Even if that pipe is not capped on the relief, it is STILL DANGEROUS and not to code. 180 spewing out can peel your flesh off and kill you if you happen to be in the way.
 
  #56  
Old 10-24-12, 08:26 PM
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I am in nyc, ny.

I amunable to find that drain valve to adjust the pressure. Is it at the side of the boiler itself? After draining, i need to fill water, i guess. I am going to read the link provided by you and trooper in a bit.
 
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Old 10-24-12, 08:43 PM
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Just a note:

The strangest thing about your boiler is the feed and return are on the same side.????

Where your expansion tank and water feed is, is where my boiler feed is.

Where your boiler feed is, is where my exp tank, water feed is.

Hmmmm????


Mine aint the prettiest....

And yes troop. This is an old pic. The relief valve has been piped properly....LOL

[IMG][/IMG]


 
  #58  
Old 10-24-12, 09:44 PM
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ANY drain can be used to drain off some water, all you need to drain is a couple of cups to maybe a half gallon at the very most. You can even use the safety valve to drain off some water if nothing else.

Follow Trooper's recommendations concerning cleaning the relay contacts. He is also correct that the left-hand relay contacts are for the pump and the right-hand contacts are for the burner. Spray some of the Caig De-Ox-It into the slide switch on top of the relay control and slide the switch back and forth several times to help clean those contacts as well. If you can reach inside the control box and spray the switch from below it will be even better.

The link Mike posted for the replacement control is a decent price, especially for a Honeywell. It can be done for less money if you want to cob something together but I think the Honeywell control is best for you.

To test the safety device on the gas control you need to turn off the gas at that plug valve in the main gas line at about the top of the boiler. It may be hard to move so yo will need a wrench but DON'T use a lot of force. If it doesn't turn post back and I'll give you more instruction. Assuming it does turn off (handle cross-wise to the pipe) the pilot flame will go out in a minute or less. Wait five minutes and then turn the plug valve back on and listen and smell for gas escaping in the combustion chamber under the boiler. You will need to get down on your hands and knees for this. If there is no hiss or smell of gas you then need to turn the gas valve control knob back to the PILOT position and then using a long match or butane fireplace lighter (available almost everywhere) [ATTACH=CONFIG]4676[/ATTACH] (Image courtesy of torchlightercigar.blogspot.com)

hold the lighter (lit) near the pilot burner and press in the control knob on the gas valve. Hold the knob in for a minute and then let it go, the pilot should remain lit and you may then turn the knob back to the ON position.

If you do this test and yet hear or smell gas escaping into the combustion chamber DO NOT attempt to re-light the pilot. Your gas control valve is leaking through and needs to be replaced. Replacement is generally NOT a DIY job.
 
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  #59  
Old 10-24-12, 11:13 PM
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Hi,

Given my boiler seems to be working now, i have a few questions,

1) do i need to replace the relay since it is burnt?
2) the discharge piping from pressure release valve, can i just use a wrench and make it back to 'point' back to the floor rather than at a 45 degree like it is now? (need sealant?)
3) the circ oil is cheap, but shipping is expensive, can i use some other oil i have like motor oil or bar chain oil. I plan to replace it with taco switch nx summer.
4) what other things i should replace / correct to maintain this boiler a little better please? I called a local boiler cleaning company and they charge 400 for it. I think its expensive!


Thanks! I will work on the pressure in expansion tank tomorrow.

Thanks.
 
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Old 10-24-12, 11:45 PM
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I would get the Caig De-Ox-It and use it on the relay as Trooper described. You probably should purchase a new relay for when this one again stops working unless you plan to buy a new boiler next year.

With the boiler below 100 degrees you can remove the discharge piping from the safety valve and then using the proper wrench try to tighten the valve enough to get the outlet to point outwards, or at least to be parallel with the boiler casing and then add elbows and nipples to get the discharge pointed downward. You can let it drain into a five-gallon bucket if you so desire or else just pipe it within six inches of the floor. Do NOT turn it backwards (counter-clockwise) or else you WILL need to remove it and use new sealant on the threads. Removal also will require draining the system or working VERY fast.

You may use any oil in the pump if you are planning on replacing it next summer.

I'll let Mike (Lawrosa) detail how to clean the boiler. I have only had limited experience with one of these boilers and that was more than ten years ago. Most of the work can wait until next spring/summer. If it is working more-or-less reliably you do NOT want to do anything more than necessary during the heating season. Summer is the time for boiler work.
 
  #61  
Old 10-25-12, 02:53 AM
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With the boiler below 100 degrees you can remove the discharge piping from the safety valve and then using the proper wrench try to tighten the valve enough to get the outlet to point outwards, or at least to be parallel with the boiler casing and then add elbows and nipples to get the discharge pointed downward. You can let it drain into a five-gallon bucket if you so desire or else just pipe it within six inches of the floor. Do NOT turn it backwards (counter-clockwise) or else you WILL need to remove it and use new sealant on the threads. Removal also will require draining the system or working VERY fast.
Hi,

What did you mean by not turning backwards or else i need to remove it? Because you also suggested ," With the boiler below 100 degrees you can remove the discharge piping from the safety valve and then using the proper wrench try to tighten the valve enough to get the outlet to point outwards."

I actually was planning to make it tighter so it points downward, and then add a extension pipe so it points closer to the floor.
Thx
 
  #62  
Old 10-25-12, 07:43 AM
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I actually was planning to make it tighter so it points downward, and then add a extension pipe so it points closer to the floor.


That's fine.......

You have a CO detector? These boilers seem to have CO issues. Its good to have one.

As far as cleaning, get through the winter and clean when it gets warm. Revisit here for help.
 
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Old 10-25-12, 02:48 PM
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At the risk of offering redundant answers:

1) do i need to replace the relay since it is burnt?
If it seems to be working OK now, no. If it acts up during the heating season, clean the contacts again.

2) the discharge piping from pressure release valve, can i just use a wrench and make it back to 'point' back to the floor rather than at a 45 degree like it is now? (need sealant?)
Ideally that should be piped in a way that persons nearby won't be injured in case it opens.

Not just close to the floor because if someone is using the crapper we can't see in the pics, and that thing opens, it will spray almost boiling water on them.

======================

Is that exhaust pipe really right up next to the wall?

Is your fire insurance all paid up?

Do all your smoke detectors have fresh batteries and are they loud enough to wake sleeping occupants?
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-25-12 at 03:55 PM.
  #64  
Old 10-25-12, 03:05 PM
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Also technically code dictates no iron pipe out the relief valve. Copper or pvc.

Iron pipe cloggs/corrodes
 
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Old 10-25-12, 03:53 PM
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no iron pipe out the relief valve. Copper or pvc.
PVC is OK? not CPVC ? ..............
 
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Old 10-25-12, 04:13 PM
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Heat in the wintertime is too important to be without. For $50 getting a new relay control in advance is fairly cheap.

I am unaware of any "code" prohibiting the use of steel piping for safety valve outlets. Codes DO require the outlet piping to be of a material that is sufficient for the pressure and temperature of the medium being expelled by the safety valve. That means that PVC is NOT acceptable.
 
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Old 10-25-12, 04:41 PM
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PVC??? Yeah OK CPVC... Typing faster then brain.
 
  #68  
Old 10-25-12, 10:15 PM
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You have a CO detector? These boilers seem to have CO issues. Its good to have one.
Yes, I have a CO detector in the boiler room ceiling. I do notice there is a somewhat strong smell of burnt (not gas - not sure if its CO?) when teh boiler is on. HOw to remedy CO issues?

Lawrosa,

Can you post a picture of your system with the Taco Circ? I want to buy the Taco Circ so i can replace it next summer. I am debating if i should buy it now together with the Relay and oil to save on Shipping cost. I read the install manual of the Taco Circ and it seems like the ENTIRE red circ will be replaced with this Green Taco, right? Is welding required when hooking up this Taco circ? Or it can be hooked onto the existing "adapter" that the bell & gossetts Circ is hanging on to?

Here are the things on my list.

1) Lube Circ with Oil
2) Change relay with new (then no need to get Caig De-Ox-It )
3) Buy Circ and replace nx Summer
4) Clean boiler next summer
5) Install extension pipe and twist angle from the pressure relief discharge pipe.
6) release extra water from boiler, and recharge expansion tank.

I do not know how old is this boiler, can you tell how much more life it has left in it? Thinking if going with a brand new boiler next summer is a better choice or not.

Thanks.
 
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Old 10-26-12, 07:26 AM
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You can get the pump from the home store.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202811809/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=taco&storeId=10051#.UIqd_2c4LYU

As well as the oil.

1.5 oz. Lubricant Oil-BG118153 at The Home Depot


The relay you can get from your local plumbing supply.

Input your zip code here. ( Additionally they will have everything you need.)

Locations Finder


I do not know how old is this boiler, can you tell how much more life it has left in it? Thinking if going with a brand new boiler next summer is a better choice or not.


That boiler may outlive us...The problem is its most likely way over sized. You need to do a heat loss calculation of the home. This will determine the proper size boiler if you chose to replace. You may be able to cut your fuel bill down substantially.

Example: My boiler is 85k btu. I only need 27k btu with my heat loss. Why don't I change it? $$$$... Although I am thinking about it because I could get a good deal on a boiler..

The boiler I would get with my heat loss would be this s34 model. I could get it for $900. I would install myself.

http://slantfin.com/images/stories/P..._s_10.pdf .pdf


Also save some money and just rebuild the pump you have. You probably just need the coupler. Home store also.

Spring Coupler-BG118705 at The Home Depot


Video how to install.


Bell & Gossett Series 100 Repair Video - YouTube!


With that said its your call. IMO I would rebuild the pump for 17 bucks and get a new realy for 50 bucks. I would not go crazy.....

 
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Old 10-26-12, 08:10 AM
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If you wanted to change the pump here is the issue you will have.

The spacing between pups is different. You will need to extend one side of the flange.

How to replace a Taco 007 circulator

image courtesy masterplumber.net NOT Mike's boiler!
 
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Last edited by NJT; 10-26-12 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 10-26-12, 03:57 PM
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I'm not sure the spacing is that much different. I think it's like 6-1/2 or 6-5/8 flange to flange?

[just looked... if it is a SERIES 100 pump, the flange to flange is 6-3/8 as is the 007 pump.]

I've had some really old B&G pumps that were replaced with 007 and I DID have to file the bolt holes in the flanges a wee bit in order to get the bolts in because the spacing was a tad wider on them. But the gasket fit fine, and the pump fit between the flanges.

Measure the flange to flange distance on your pump and compare to the published spec for the 007 to be sure.

Even if it's an 1/8 of an inch off, one can USUALLY flex the pipe enough to make up the difference.

Mikey, I hope you have repaired that leaking flange!
and what's with all that flame rollout?
That's not your boiler, is it?
 
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Old 10-26-12, 04:03 PM
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Takkie, you are being strangely silent on the FIRE HAZARD ISSUE of the exhaust flue pipe.

Are you not concerned?
 
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Old 10-26-12, 04:33 PM
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Mikey, I hope you have repaired that leaking flange!
and what's with all that flame rollout?
That's not your boiler, is it?
Oh boy....LOL....No its not my boiler...Ha,ha.

 
  #74  
Old 10-26-12, 07:29 PM
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Takkie, you are being strangely silent on the FIRE HAZARD ISSUE of the exhaust flue pipe.

Are you not concerned?

Can you advise what needs to be done to remedy the issue pls?

thx
 
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Old 10-26-12, 07:53 PM
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Sure...

you need to either

A) move the walls

or

2) move the pipe
 

Last edited by NJT; 10-27-12 at 08:44 PM.
  #76  
Old 10-26-12, 08:43 PM
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Are we talking bat the wall next to the circulator? Or are we talking bat the wall behind the boiler?

It's a stairs behind the wall, and side of house next to circulator. Did you mean remove the dry wall and leave the concrete wall out?

Thanks.
 
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Old 10-27-12, 07:08 AM
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Who ever put these walls up, did not think about the flue pipe. Its too close to the walls.

18" away it needs to be. If you changed to double wall it will cost a small fortune, and still you would need to be 6" away.
 
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Old 10-27-12, 07:31 AM
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The thing is, it's not only that pipe I would be concerned with.

It's going up into the ceiling... if what we can actually SEE is that close to walls (combustible material), and who ever did this monstrosity didn't care that much or was just plain ignorant, can you imagine what is there that we CAN'T SEE above that ceiling or inside those walls above?

You are LITERALLY "playing with fire" here.

PLEASE, make sure you have WORKING smoke detectors on every level of the home, in every bedroom, and they are loud enough to wake every sleeping occupant.

Make sure that occupants have an ESCAPE PLAN in the event of fire. Practice FIRE DRILLS.

Make sure your fire insurance is paid up.
 
  #79  
Old 10-27-12, 02:18 PM
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If i knock down the walls, and have 18" away, that will solve the side wall issue. But going up the ceiling, is that what every heating system does? Because boiler room are usually in basement, so it has to go up.

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  #80  
Old 10-27-12, 02:28 PM
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I see a thimble in the ceiling. Most likely from that point up is double wall. What is above this space????
 
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