Boiler Installed Backwards

Reply

  #1  
Old 11-26-12, 08:09 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Boiler Installed Backwards

I recently lost my boiler during Hurricane Sandy. I purchased a Burnham P 204 gas boiler to replace the one I had, which was from 1989. I picked up the boiler myself and got it into my basement. Rather than install it myself I had someone come and do it for me to save me the time and headache. The installer was supposedly a "plumber" who was an expert and has been doing this for 40 years.

Well let just say I got totally scammed and should have just installed the thing myself.

The first issue was the temperature gauge reaching 250 deg f and the loud knocking. I immediately noticed he did not change the expansion tank as he was supposed to. I called him but it was already late and I am stubborn so I ran to Home Depot and put a new one in myself. Once this was done the knocking stopped but the temperature kept rising. I lowered the limit to 140 and the boiler shut down at 200. I wasnt happy with this but chalked it up to a bad limit.

Well after ordering one myself today I did some research and looked at the install diagram. What i discovered is that the entire system was installed backwards. Below is a link to some photos. Please let me know your opinions... I feel really taken advantage of, and its times like this that I realize why I dont let other people work on my home.


thank you

Mike
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 11-26-12, 08:19 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 52,699
Received 344 Votes on 322 Posts
Mike.....your link seems to be missing.
 
  #3  
Old 11-26-12, 08:20 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
Hi Mike,

Sorry to hear the story... makes me wanna come up there and hunt the guy down and do bad stuff to him...

Link to pics don't show up... forgot?
 
  #4  
Old 11-26-12, 08:26 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Sorry, heres the link

MJH771's Library | Photobucket
 
  #5  
Old 11-26-12, 08:56 PM
hvactechfw's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 6,245
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
pump is either pumping the wrong way (needs turned over) or the house supply and return lines need switched.
 
  #6  
Old 11-27-12, 05:40 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I want to switch the house supply and return lines. Can anyone give me somerecommendations based on what I have? Any new valves I should add? Location of water supply pipe? Should it be flowing into the return line? Or should it be reconfigured to fill through the expansion tank as i saw in the install diagram that came with the unit?

Thanks for your help

Mike
 
  #7  
Old 11-27-12, 08:13 AM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 409
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Looks to me like the plumber got the supply and return boiler lines/connections mixed up.

I'm not a pro, but if it were mine, I'd replace all the near-boiler piping.

And as long as I was at it, I'd also make sure to "pump away" from the expansion tank. Check out: Pumping Away Article
 
  #8  
Old 11-27-12, 08:44 AM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,804
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
For now to get you through the winter I would just turn the pump around. Where the pump is, is the feed,

Page 7 here.

http://www.usboiler.net/products/boi...ets/manual.pdf

I dont think you will have an issue with the exp tank where its at. Come summer you can repipe as you see fit.

Just my opinion. Do whats easiest now for a quick fix. IMO I would have that contractor from 40 years repipe the whole thing come summer. Tell him you want it exactly as page 7 describes.
 
  #9  
Old 11-27-12, 10:21 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
The problem with just turning the pump around, I believe, is the location of the check valve on the "return" side. I was worried the water wont flow back down into the boiler.

Im having trouble getting in contact with the "contractor" at the moment.

As far as "pumping away" it appears that is the preferred location on the install diagram. downstream from the expansion tank. My original thought was to just put the pump on the return side flowing down. Essentially just moving it over from its current location. it is noted that this is an "alternate" location for the pump in the schematic. Will it have a noticeable effect on performance? It is a small 1 zone system.

Thanks for the input, its greatly appreciated.
 
  #10  
Old 11-27-12, 01:23 PM
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: nj
Posts: 576
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
All i can say is wow to this install. 40 years huh...... Makes me wonder how many out there look like this mess.
 
  #11  
Old 11-27-12, 01:40 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,804
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
I am only suggesting a temp solution to get you through the winter...

One zone i would think you can just open the flow control all the way and leave it. Turn the pump around and wait until winters over.

Dont think you need that flow control on a single loop.

Thats a nice pump though......I wonder if that has a built in check valve?
 
  #12  
Old 11-27-12, 01:44 PM
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,174
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I think you might be able to manually open the "flow check" and then reverse the pump.
This is no where near optimal, but it would buy you time.
There is not much of a pressure drop thru the CI boiler so the fill and expansion is "close" to the right place.

If you have CI rads or CI baseboard don't forget to plumb in a boiler bypass when it gets re piped.
 
  #13  
Old 11-27-12, 02:15 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 218
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I wish I still lived in NY...I would be more than glad to come out and help you.
 
  #14  
Old 11-27-12, 03:27 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Good stuff guys

The plan is to re-pipe this weekend. I have a plan of action but would love to see some single zone photos for reference. All I am going off of now is the schematic. Any recommendations would be great. Or just a simple checklist from return to supply...assuming the pump is on the return side.

Thanks again
 
  #15  
Old 11-27-12, 04:04 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,804
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
You want the pump on the supply. Pipe according to page 7. Move the exp tank to supply and get a air scoop as shown.

Like I said a lot of work and may take a few days.

You sure your up to it?
 
  #16  
Old 11-27-12, 05:01 PM
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 78
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Add a horizontal pressure relief valve to your list. I've been through that, and it's only cerified for upright installation. You'll find that in the manual, too.

wow.
 
  #17  
Old 11-27-12, 06:39 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
On page 7, the pump on the return is an acceptable alternative. are you advising against this?

The expansion tank will be on the supply and I will add an air scoop. An alternative is to add the pump on the supply side down stream from the expansion tank.
 
  #18  
Old 11-28-12, 01:35 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 218
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I was taught to pump away from the boiler and put the expansion tank / feed at the point of no pressure change. The reason to pump away was it won't reduce the working pressure of the boiler.

Nothing wrong with doing it the way the manufacturer suggests or recommends.
 
  #19  
Old 11-28-12, 01:47 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,804
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
An alternative is to add the pump on the supply side down stream from the expansion tank.



Yes. If your going to do it, do it right...Its a new boiler.

 
  #20  
Old 11-28-12, 04:04 PM
rbeck's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,449
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Turn the pump around for the winter and manually open the flow valve. In the spring remove the flow valve as it is not needed with a single heat zone system. You can move the expansion tank/air separator to the supply if you want to but don't have to. If the circ is on the supply and the expansion tank is on the return you are still pumping away from the point of no pressure change (PONPC).
You will make it a bit easier to eliminate air if you move the expansion tank/air separator to the supply side and pump away from the PONPC.
The idea of pumping away is to add pressure to the system to break the air up and create smaller less buoyant bubbles. Hot water drives the air out of the water better.
 
  #21  
Old 11-28-12, 06:34 PM
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,174
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
and don't forget the boiler bypass if you need it.
CI rads and CI baseboads need it.
In floor radiant, really needs it :-)
 
  #22  
Old 11-29-12, 05:27 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Ok thanks for all the input. I have 1 more question regarding piping diameter.

The supply leaves the boiler with 1.5" black iron going to a 1.5" air scoop, than going to the pump. I will reduce the pipe diameter to 1" copper for all the baseboards.

On the return side, when should I expand the pipe back to -1.5"? The return will be dropping straight down to the boiler on about a 4' run, would it be ok to put the coupling on that drop? 3' down in 1" copper than add a coupling going to 1.5" black iron?

No Ci rads...so I'm not planning on adding a bypass.

thanks again!
 
  #23  
Old 11-29-12, 06:41 AM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 409
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
I don't see why you couldn't use 1" copper all the way down to the elbow if you want to do that.

Speaking of which, that elbow looks like it might be galvanized steel; if so, get rid of it and replace it with a brass reducing elbow which would make a nice transition to your 1" copper.

Don't forget to put some purge valves (drain valve with shut-off valve installed directly below it) on the return.
 
  #24  
Old 11-29-12, 08:30 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
OK, I was thinking there could be some pressure drop during the transition there.

Purge and shut-off with be on the return run above the boiler.

Thanks for your help.
 
  #25  
Old 11-29-12, 07:20 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I know the recommended distance in front of and behind the air scoop is 18" straight run. If I add the pump after that in the straight run were looking at over 5' of straight run... I really don't have that much space...what's the best way around this? Can I cut the space before and after the air scoop to 4"?

Thanks!
 
  #26  
Old 11-29-12, 07:43 PM
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 409
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
One option is to use something like a Taco Vortech which doesn't require a minimum pipe run. I have one on my system for the same reason.
 
  #27  
Old 11-29-12, 08:35 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 11
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks that's a nice product.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: