water hammering


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Old 11-29-12, 07:18 PM
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water hammering

I have purchashed a home with a boiler system installed in may 2003.
There are 4 zone valves 3 Erie 465b307-GAI and 1 honeywell v8043g1125.

Since the heating season is upon us there have some issues with water hammering in the heating system.
One of the things we noticed right off was we heard running water... sounded like a lot of water was pouring onto the the floor near the base board rad in the dinning room. shortly after that we started hear the Banging of pipes (water Hammering) quite regulerly(2 am ... ) I have to now embark on finding out how stop the noise and figure out why there is only 1 air bleed on 1 zone(garage)
Is there a way to find out which way the valves should be installed?
should all 4 valves have the manual switch on top of the valves?
is there a way to install air bleed valves on the other 3 zones?
I have an old expansion tank above boiler.(which I have drained once so far)
Should the boiler system be flushed on a periodic maintenance routine?
I have also seem to have a couple of air lock episodes..
Please send me some sort of help to stop myself from The wall is harder then my head.
 
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Old 11-29-12, 08:23 PM
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Hi there....

Hmmm , a lot of questions... Could you tell us the make and model of the boiler? Could you also tell us what the temp and pressure gauge reads on the boiler?

Please read the sticky's on how to verify a pressure gauge at the top of this forum.

Seems you may have an air issue but it could be other things also. Hey what would really help if you can post a lot of pics of your system. That tank needs to be drains completely.

You should have no auto air vents on that system. You meant manual bleeders right?
 
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Old 11-30-12, 05:19 AM
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Benjamin oil fired boiler No pressure gauge on system.
Burner tech informed me it was a 12 psi system.
relief valve is 30 psi.
The system was installed in 2003.
 

Last edited by Joseph H Green; 11-30-12 at 05:37 AM. Reason: more info
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Old 11-30-12, 05:22 AM
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There is only 1 bleed valve in garage ... but the burner guy told me it was automatic. Can base board rads have manual air bleed valves installed.
 
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Old 11-30-12, 06:37 AM
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Plese include your location in your profile.

Can you provide the model # of the boiler?

No gauge??? Thats just nuts...There must be...

Please take pics. Cant help much if we do not see it.
 
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Old 11-30-12, 04:16 PM
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you wanted Pictures .. I can't seem to upload them.
 
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Old 11-30-12, 04:26 PM
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Scroll down to attachments below your reply box. You can add them there. The pic function has issues at times.
 
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Old 11-30-12, 04:47 PM
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Benjamin model OB-1000 it has a Riello Burner model f3 or f5.
There is only 1 temp gauge, There is no pressure gage!
3 Erie control valve's 465b307-GAI, 1 Honeywell valve v 8043g1125
There seems to be several troubles with this system.
Air in the system is one and I think there may be other problems as well.
I will require an email addres to up load the photo's
 
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Old 11-30-12, 05:06 PM
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ok we trying again to show you the pictures.
 
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Old 11-30-12, 05:31 PM
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next set of pics

Ok now i will try to upload the 2 pics of the valves.
To me the honeywell valve is upside down . But I am so new to boilers I dripp profussely from my ears!!!
 
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Old 11-30-12, 06:10 PM
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Thats beautiful!!!! I have tears in my eyes......

The only thing is that piece of wood holding that electric box up....Uggg.

Anyway check the body of the zone valves. There should be an arrow. They should all face up.....
 
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Old 11-30-12, 06:37 PM
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As stated earlier I hope the vent is of the manual type. There should be no automatic air vents on this system.
I cannot tell where the expansion tank ties into the system. Could we get a picture of the tank connection.
The single purge valve is OK the way it is piped. Open one system loop valve at a time with the zone valves open.
The pump appears to be on the wrong side of the system, but depends on where the tank is piped into the system.
Make-up water into the top of the boiler is not a great idea.
The draft regulator is supposed to be a minimum of 18" from the boiler.
 
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Old 11-30-12, 07:16 PM
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Please look closely at that gauge and tell me that there aren't TWO needles on it, one for temperature, and one for pressure...

Yeah, that 2x6 hanging there sure is a nice touch, ain't it?
 
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Old 12-01-12, 04:55 AM
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Gauge

Yes that gauge is for both temp and pressure.. from a good look at it after a heating cycle just now the pressure reads 14 psi.
 
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Old 12-01-12, 09:00 AM
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after a heating cycle just now the pressure reads 14 psi.
Pressure without temperature is relatively meaningless. Please report BOTH.

Did you look for and find the flow direction arrows on the zone valve bodies?
 
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Old 12-01-12, 02:01 PM
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re: temp / pressure and arrows

temp 145* f pressure 12 psi,
arrow pointing up wards for the Honeywell valve and the Erie's hav A on Top and B on bottom...
Another question as well .
How often should the system be Purged (cleaned out ) and how do you get that done.
As far as I can tell no one has completly cleaned the system since it was installed.

Now in November i emptied the pressure tank it had some very large amounts of black sandy crud come out with the water.
 
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Old 12-01-12, 02:28 PM
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Presuming the gauge to be accurate (and I NEVER do...) then your pressure is a bit on the low side still. With 12 @ 145, when the boiler cools, the pressure will be well below the minimum.

I always recommend reading this:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html

If you feel you can trust the gauge, let the boiler cool all the way to room temp and bring the pressure up to 12-15 PSI when COLD.

How often should the system be Purged (cleaned out ) and how do you get that done.
As far as I can tell no one has completly cleaned the system since it was installed.
If you are talking about the water in the system, the correct answer is NEVER, or only when necessary to perform some service (changing pumps, valves, etc).

Reason being that fresh water contains lots of dissolved air (oxygen) and minerals (calcium, magnesium).

After the water has been in the system for a time, the dissolved air is driven out of the water and vented from the system. This makes the water INERT.

Water and Oxygen and Iron (or other ferrous components) cause RUST and corrosion. Remove any one of the three and there is no more corrosion. In the case of a boiler, remove the oxygen and there is no more rust or corrosion on the water side.

Now in November i emptied the pressure tank it had some very large amounts of black sandy crud come out with the water.
Yeah... you will get some of that occuring in the tank itself. Nothing much you can do about that. Shouldn't cause a problem. This is another reason why you don't want to 'change' the water in the system, because each time you do, there will be more of that stuff generated...
 
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Old 12-01-12, 02:40 PM
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make up water/ pressure tank

I have located the make up water input .. it dose go in the top of the boiler!

the make water comes up to a t and goes up to the pressure tank,also goes to the top of the boiler near the pressure relief valve as input to boiler .
 
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Old 12-01-12, 02:44 PM
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increasing pressure?

How do I increase the pressure of the sysyem?
do i change the pressure in put valve?
or do I pressurize the expansion tank?
As I said I have very very limited experance with home boiler systems!!
 
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Old 12-01-12, 02:47 PM
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do i change the pressure in put valve?
Yes... but I can't see it in the pic and don't know which one you have. Otherwise I could tell you more directly. Can you get a better pic of the feed valve?

or do I pressurize the expansion tank?
No...
 
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Old 12-01-12, 03:53 PM
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Ok bud.

here are the next 2 pics
 
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Old 12-01-12, 09:08 PM
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Gotcha... that's a Watts 1156 reducing valve.

See that lever on the top? That's a 'bypass' or 'fast fill' lever.

You can use that lever to manually raise the pressure in the boiler. If adding pressure works, then we'll talk about an adjustment later.

If the boiler is very hot, shut off and allow to cool some before adding cold water.

Slowly lift that lever. You will hear water hissing into the boiler.

Look at the pressure gauge before you lift and make note of the reading.

Slowly add water until it's about 4 PSI higher than whatever it was.

See if that helps with the problem banging and what not...
 
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Old 12-02-12, 06:30 AM
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Pressure ..

Increased the pressure to 15 psi @ 90 degrees F.. returned boiler to operational status .. now waiting to see what happens if anything

 
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Old 12-02-12, 07:42 AM
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observations

Some success.
Pressure 18 psi @ 160 degrees @ end of 3rd heating cycle

 

Last edited by Joseph H Green; 12-02-12 at 07:43 AM. Reason: wrong temp
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Old 12-02-12, 08:26 AM
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Any change in the banging and water rushing noises with the pressure change?
 
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Old 12-02-12, 05:29 PM
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re pressure ..Banging..

we have not heard any since pressure was increased... but it isn't 2 am yet..
that is the normal time for the banging...
 
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Old 12-02-12, 05:35 PM
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Let me know if you run out of ideas...I had one that did that once.
 
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Old 12-02-12, 05:52 PM
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I quickly scanned but didn't see that anyone has asked...

How tall is the home? 2 stories? 3 stories?

Is it possible that the 'banging' is expansion noises in the piping?

I don't doubt that the water rushing noises are related to the pressure though, but if the piping is 'tight' passing by wooden framing members, as the pipe expands, it grows. If it's 'hanging up' on a too tight opening it will be like a 'mini-earthquake', the pipe will grow in length, and the pressure will build up, and then alla sudden... BANG! ... the pipe will move and can make a tremendous amount of noise, enough to wake an unconscious drunk (please don't ask how I know! )

This type of noise will not be 'rhythmic' and may only occur once during a heating cycle.

Some expansion noise is rhythmic... usually not as loud ... bang..................bang...................bang

Often it will simply be a 'tick'. May start ticking fast when the hot water goes through, but then will slow down and stop.

Does this sound like a possibility?
 
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Old 12-02-12, 06:00 PM
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Mine had a restricted water passage in the heat exchanger. The banging was the water boiling inside and the noise went all throughout the system. Lets hope this is not where you're at, because this is not easy to fix. It would start boiling in the middle of the night during longer cycles.
 
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Old 12-02-12, 07:16 PM
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Yeah, that would do it... " kettling " ... when that happens you can see the pressure needle jump too!

===================================

From what I can see in the pics, this is NOT the case, it looks correct, but just for the heck of it Joe, let's get a closer look at the red pump. Should be an arrow on the body of it. It's pointing DOWN isn't it?
 
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Old 12-03-12, 10:05 AM
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Arrow

Arrow is pointing down. Pump pulls water on return side and delivers it to the bottom of the boiler.
Since pressure was increased we have had no banging.
It seems though I may have an air lock on the garge loop...
it is the only zone now not heating thermostat set @ 65 but temp is 35 in the garage and it dose not matter what I set it the thermostat to there seems to be no flow to the unit heater in garage .
I am thinking I am going open manual bleeder valve .. have to climb a 8 ft ladder to reach it though.
 
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Old 12-03-12, 03:48 PM
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I quickly scanned but didn't see that anyone has asked...

How tall is the home? 2 stories? 3 stories?
You didn't answer... want to know because it has to do with how much pressure you need in your system. We might have to ask you to adjust that pressure regulator later on... (it's easy, no worries!)

Arrow is pointing down. Pump pulls water on return side and delivers it to the bottom of the boiler.
Good... I thought so, just wanted to check and make sure. If it was bassackwards it wouldn't be the first time!

temp is 35 in the garage
Has it been down to freezing up there yet? Better hope the pipe didn't freeze!

I am thinking I am going open manual bleeder valve .. have to climb a 8 ft ladder to reach it though.
Yeah, you might have to... if the pipe goes up and over, that's a fine place for air to collect and block the flow. That's probably why that bleeder is there!

Whenever you bleed, keep an eye on the pressure... it will go down as you bleed so you will need to 'bump' the pressure back up periodically with that lever on the valve.

Just be careful not to get too close to 30 PSI because the safety relief valve on the boiler will spew.

============================

Now that we are reasonably sure that the low pressure was the cause of the noises you were hearing, you need to keep an eye on that pressure gauge.

If you find that it keeps going low you need to look for and correct any small leaks that may exist.

After you've monitored it for a couple weeks, come back and let us know what it's been doing, and if necessary we'll give you instructions on adjusting that pressure regulator valve.
 
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Old 12-03-12, 04:11 PM
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temps ..

Barely hitting 32 F .. but today53 -54 * degrees outside nice warm damp day but i will check that vent in garage next.Thanks for all the good info.. I will keep you guys posted


Ps house is a 1240 sq single story on a basement .. 18 yrs old and seems to be well insulated..
It has a few minor issue's but nothing time and a honey git r done list won't fix...That is with the help of some experts. Thanks Guys .
 

Last edited by Joseph H Green; 12-03-12 at 04:16 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 12-03-12, 04:37 PM
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manual vent..

pipes to and from unit heater are quite hot!! but the fan is not cutting in and temp is not increaseing ..only water came out of the bleed valve cool at first but changed to quite hot No air though ..Is there a special tool to bleed with other than tip of finger ?
 
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Old 12-03-12, 04:55 PM
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Weird that pipes on both sides are hot!

Fan is on a temperature control inside the heater, comes on automatically when coil inside gets hot.

WATCH YOUR FINGERS AND BALANCE ON THE LADDER! FAN CAN COME ON UNEXPECTEDLY!

If there's a power switch for the fan, SHUT IT OFF while you are bleeding it!

Is there a special tool to bleed with other than tip of finger ?
Depends on what kind of bleeder it is... can you take a pic?

You may have to bleed it with the pump running... or did you already do that?

Try jacking the pressure up higher before you bleed it... even as high as 25PSI ... just remember where it was before you jacked it, and return it there when done.
 
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Old 12-03-12, 04:58 PM
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Looks like you've got four zones on your system.

Is one of them dedicated to the unit heater in the garage?
 
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Old 12-04-12, 05:26 PM
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Unit Heater .

. It is on its own zone.. Bleeding helped alot .. at least temp is coming up.
now 65 degrees. I think am getting a line on this thanks to you people.
I have an idea of what i may have to build to make a easy manual vent to ensure that i can bleed it and keep water in 1 container and not all over me and other stuff in garage. once i build it I will post a picture.
 
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Old 01-12-13, 02:19 PM
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Same Boiler new Problem

The house hold hot water comes from the same boiler.
Is there a way to clean the hot water coil?
Or Is this fix going to be replacement of the Hot water coil.
If we are showering in 4 minutes no more hot water... Furnace cuts in and the water becomes luke warm at best. I also have run the hot water to cold in less then 3 minutes causeing boiler to kick in but again only luke water continues.. if you turn off the tap for 5 minutes then yes the water gets hot but only again for less then 3 minutes!!

So what do you think !!
 
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Old 01-12-13, 04:24 PM
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Joe, what are the HI, LO, and DIFF settings on the aquastat dials?

Yes, they can be cleaned, but it's not easy or fun. It involves cutting into the pipes to install some valves (if not already installed) and isolating the coil from the rest of the domestic water system by means of these valves. Then, an acid solution is pumped through the coil itself to clean out the 'lime' buildup that occurs on the inside of the pipe to get the heat transfer back again.

Not something for DIY...
 
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Old 01-13-13, 11:34 AM
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settings

hi 190 slightly lower (185 ??)
lo 160 Slightly higher (163 ??)
diff above 20 * (guess 25)

Joy!! Any idea on cost of such a cleaning ??

even if I did all the prep it would still be about 2 hours i figure just to clean it.

(prep Includes turning off water cutting pipes placing valves and quick disconnets in line and ensureing all would continue to work as required till i got a pro to clean it.
 
 

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