boiler calling for heat even tho thermostat wires not even connected

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Old 12-02-12, 06:55 PM
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boiler calling for heat even tho thermostat wires not even connected

I was affected by the superstorm sandy in Brooklyn, ny.

I replaced my boiler myself with the aame one (weil mclain cgt gold hot water all in one) boiler came al re eady wired. I have 2 zone valves install and all was working fine before storm. After installing new boiler one zone was not calling for heat, the other was working fine. I disconected the thermostat and just put wires together still no call for heat and valve stays closed. So I just open the valve manually to get heat. The valves did not get affected by flood and nor did thermostats.

I when I first hooked up boiler, I just put the 2 thermostat wires together to get heat. All worked well. I manually open the zone valves and got heat no problem. The boiler turns off on its own when the water temp is reached for the heat (180).

I hooked up the thermostats and one zone did not work. I manually open the other zone for a day untill I had time to deal with issue. I then took tryed trouble shooting by switch ing the thermostat wires. It worked. I confirm ed the zone valve to be fully operational.

I took off all wires for thermostats and zone valves and the boiler is still calling for heat ( the thermostat/circulater pump light is on). The circulater is constantly on but the boiler only fires when water temp drops below the set of 180 which is good.

My question is why is this light and the ciculater on when the thermostat wires are not even connected.? And what is the proper wiring of the zone valves for a single zone boiler.

Please not when I set up these two zones five ye ars ago it all work perfect. I had to install an external 24 volt transformer for the honeywell zone valves.

The reason why I ask for the wiring is because I undid it all because I was not sure if my wiring was affecting the boiler calling for heat.

By the way I can not get a plumber at this time due to not one available because so many with out heat. And $... which is why I have no choice to do it myself.

I will provide my phone number if requested.

2 small kids in the house
 
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Old 12-02-12, 07:56 PM
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Sorry to hear of your trouble Albert... down Jersey shore here... I'm with ya...

What make and model of zone valves do you have?

I can't make a lot of sense out of your post, it kinda repeats and contradicts a little bit... but I got the gist of it I think.

Are you saying that if you disconnect the external wiring from the 2 black thermostat wires on the boiler that it continues to run? Those two black wires aren't touching each other are they?

Look at Figure 28 on page 34 of the manual:

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets...0-290_0212.pdf

Are you saying that besides the "Power" light, the ONLY other light on is the "TSTAT/CIRC" light?

OR, are there also OTHER lights lit?

Please do NOT put your phone number in a public forum message!
 
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Old 12-02-12, 08:00 PM
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Here is basic and typical zone valve wiring for TACO valves:



Here is basic and typical zone valve wiring for HONEYWELL (and other) valves:

 
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Old 12-02-12, 10:35 PM
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I will get you the model of the zone valves when I get home in the morning... at work now... 12 nights all week.

When I disconnect the 2 black wires on the boiler labeled thermostat, the thermostat/ circulator light stays on and the circulator pump is running. The boiler does not fiee unless the temp goes below 180 as set.

The 2 black wires are not touching each other or anything at all.


No other light come on. If I manully open the zone valve and the temp of the water goes below the 180 ( I see the temp gauge) then boiler fires.

When I first hooked up the boiler the thermostat/ circulator light onlt can on when I put the 2 black wires together. And the second I took them apart, that light wentout
 
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Old 12-03-12, 05:20 PM
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Update

I took off the valve that changes from hot water and heat and it seamed to be stuck in a position. I put it back on and took off and replaced it and the tstat / circulator light went out. I touched the tstat w ires and it worked as it should.

I used the wiring diagram posted and one zone woek but the other tstat which is brand new appears to be defective as I touch the wires and the boiler reacts aas it should. But the tstat not makung the connection.

Im going to get another tstat and will post results.

Thanks for the quick response njtrooper, and the wiring diagram.
 
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Old 12-03-12, 05:55 PM
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What lights are on or flashing on the 1107-1 module? Also it is not a good practice to short thermostat wires specially with electronic controls.
 
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Old 12-03-12, 07:48 PM
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Also it is not a good practice to short thermostat wires specially with electronic controls.
Why not? Isn't the thermostat itself a device that 'shorts the thermosat wires' ?
 
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Old 12-04-12, 04:44 AM
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It is shorting device but not a direct short,I have seen manuals that state not to short out for testing I was just reading an article where a new Tstat was installed but the burner would not work after,problem was the installer shorted a wire out during the install and cleared a fuse on the control board for the burner.
 
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Old 12-04-12, 04:53 AM
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Some thermostats use electronic switch these days, but many still use a simple relay (direct short).

This may 'drift' the topic a bit, but I would like to read the article myself. Can you cite a reference please?
 
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Old 12-04-12, 05:09 AM
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Watch out: do not short any wires together. Turn off power & confirm it is off. Don't forget to turn off all electrical power involved with your heating system before working on thermostat wiring, and confirm that power is off where you are working by using an appropriate test instrument such as a VOM. Shorting thermostat wires to ground or together is likely to damage components in the thermostat itself or in other heating system components, as this reader's report below illustrates:


I had a no heat situation since replacing my programmable thermostat. I did some checks that the thermostat company said and the thermostat is good. But now my furnace won't come on at all. I can hear the transformer humming. It is a Miller model #M3RL-080-ABW in a four year old manufactured home.

Apparently I touched two live wires together when doing the thermostat installation. I know, I should have turned off the breaker, (power), before working. That is the lesson of the week for sure!

I blew a small purple, two prong, auto style fuse in the electrical board on my furnace. What I did not know is the fuse was marked with a "E" instead of a number, but it is a 4 amp fuse, found at your local automotive store. I was without heat all weekend, even though it could have been on Friday evening.

I'm glad I pulled the fuse and looked to see the metal inside was broken. Otherwise I might have been without heat until I could get a HVAC guy to come out to my house. -- S.R.

Note: your fuse marked with an "E" was probably being read upside down and was a 3-amp fuse. Using a fuse one amp greater incapacity is probably not too dangerous, but it's best not to overfuse as doing so risks equipment damage. Certainly a larger fuse is asking for wiring or device burn-up should a future short circuit occur. - Ed. & reader comments

Since shorting thermostat wires can damage a circuit but can also blow the low voltage transformer, also see How to Troubleshoot Low Voltage Transformers for Heating & Air Conditioning Thermostats
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-04-12 at 05:49 AM.
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Old 12-04-12, 05:14 AM
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Also here is the service manual for the controller in question,

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets...0-290_0212.pdf

This for Alberts boiler control,sorry for the confusion.
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-04-12 at 05:56 AM.
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Old 12-04-12, 05:40 AM
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OK... but WHERE did you find that 'quote' ? ask.com ? Yahoo answers ? I would like a reference of authority please.

I still maintain that:

Shorting the two CORRECT thermostat wires together will damage NOTHING. Thermostat wires are DESIGNED to be shorted together. A thermostat is after all a simple Single Pole Single Throw SWITCH which 'shorts' the two contacts when it calls for heat.

In the hands of an inexperienced person without the proper knowledge when faced with more than two thermostat wires, I DO agree that they should not be 'messing around'. Some thermostat wires carry 24VAC coming right from a transformer secondary. If one does not know what they are doing it is HIGHLY likely in a case such as you cite that they could EASILY 'trash' an electronic control by either 'grounding' the wrong wire, shorting the 24VAC transformer output together and damaging the transformer or blowing a fuse, applying 24VAC to a wire that must NOT have 24VAC on it, or in the case of heat AND a/c thermostats, connecting two separate 24VAC transformers together and damaging them both, along with the thermostat and any associated electronic controls.

In the case of the dual function systems, it is even possible in some cases to end up with the two 24VAC sources in SERIES and feeding 48VAC to a sensitive circuit.

Bottom line, a quote from Clint Eastwood applies:

"A man has got to know his limitations"
 
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Old 12-04-12, 06:27 AM
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Albert, the condition which you experienced was because the 3 way valve had been inadvertently been placed into the 'MANUAL OPEN' position. Please see:

http://www.honeywell.se/energi/vceng.pdf

Page 12:

Manual opener

The manual opener can be manipulated when in the up position.

The motorized valve can be opened by firmly pushing the red manual lever down to midway and in (only possible if the actuator is in the upper position). This holds all ports in the open position and with auxiliary switch models the NO switch is closed.

Ports A and B of 3--way valves are opened.

This ”manual open” position may be used for filling, venting or draining the system or for opening the valve in case of power failure. The valve can be restored manually to the closed position by depressing the red manual lever lightly and then pulling it out.

The valve actuator returns to the automatic position when power is restored.
For future reference, the HONEYWELL numbers for that valve are:

[table="width: 500, class: grid, align: center"]
[tr]
[td]W-M part #[/td]
[td]Description[/td]
[td]Honeywell part #[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]635-100-023[/td]
[td]3-way Valve Actuator Honeywell[/td]
[td]VC8710-11[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]635-100-022[/td]
[td]3-way Valve Body Honeywell[/td]
[td]VC2MS6100[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
 
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Old 12-05-12, 04:00 AM
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I agree .. you would have to directly short the transformer output etc to cause problems.
In my 'box' where my 100va transformer and pump relay lives, I installed a 5a fuse. Shorting the t-stat wires does not blow the fuse since the current is still limited by the valve actuators. Likewise on the other circuit path, shorting the actuator end-switch wires does not blow the fuse because current is limited by the circ pump relay.

(Do Not actually do this, this is for discussion purpose only)
If you were to short the wires on a light switch in your house, the light would come on. But if you were to short that switch AND short the wires at the light, THEN you would trip the breaker (blow the fuse).
 
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Old 12-07-12, 04:59 AM
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Yes I agree that my issue is my 3 way actuator. The model # is vc8710-03

There is no buttons or levers on it.

This issue started when I shut off the breaker while the boiler was running (firing)

This issue still exsit but intermitently

I can home and found the boiler calling for heat but the valve in the closed position (bottom position) the circulator was running but no heat in the house ( wife and kids freezing while I work 12hr night shifts all week)

I manually took off the valve and raised the lever and put it back on and the valve lever went up and the boiler fired after a few seconds feom the cold water from the radiators coming in.

Now I shut off all tstats and the tstat/circulator light is still on. Wtf.

Its still calling for heat even tho no tstat is even on. I removed the black tstat wires to eliminate any fauly tstat issue. The boioer still calling for heat for no reason

Im at a lose

Is it possible that it is shorted or not working electronicly?

Is the wires coming out of the boiler for the thermostat powered with 24 volts or is it just a switch? Just asking, I still need to get a meter as I lost the 3 I had in the flood.
 

Last edited by albertbklyn; 12-07-12 at 05:10 AM. Reason: left out info
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Old 12-07-12, 05:25 AM
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Ok. I lowered the water temp to 170 and ligh t went out. I shut the breaker off amd baxk on. The acuator cycled and boiler seems to be ok now.

Im not sure what is causing the hold up bu t if I just cycle the power it goes back to normal. I have a feeling it may be getting hung up switching to hot water use but not sure why and what.
 
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Old 12-07-12, 03:09 PM
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Albert, just to be sure we understand this issue, you are aware that when the boiler fires itself up on LOW LIMIT, that valve will close under control of the boiler and the boiler will turn on and the burner will fire until the boiler hits the low limit temperature.

I'm sure that if you are having a 'no heat' condition that there is something wrong, but don't confuse a LOW LIMIT heat call with a malfunction.
 
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Old 12-08-12, 04:29 PM
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Yes . I just figured that out when I read your post....lol

Heres the issue. For some reason I would feel a low temperture is the house, check tstat and it is calling for heat, check boiler, there is a call for heat (the tstat light on boiler) The zone valve is open, i hear the circulator on but the 3 way valve is in tge lower position, no water flowing thru the zones. I know this because both ends are cold and boiler water temp is 180.

Now i take off the 3way honeywell valve and i hear the water flowing.

I put the 3way back on, shut breaker and put back on and all seens to resume normal operation.

I left the 3way valve off for 6 hourd so it was left in the open position but the valve plug wss still in and i got heat and hot water.

Im thinking of replacing the 3way vslve wich is new and cost 180
 
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Old 12-08-12, 04:44 PM
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If the boiler is brand new, wouldn't that be covered under warranty?

I would try to get a replacement for free... PLAY THE SANDY CARD!
 
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Old 12-15-12, 01:39 PM
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Update

The problem was, I installed the 3 way valve wrong.

A was at the B position

I turned it to the right position and everything workef as it should. Dont ask how I was still getting heat snd hot water but I was.

Thanks nj trooper for tge wiring diagram. That solved my other issue ad well.
 
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Old 12-16-12, 01:34 PM
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Good deal Albert... glad ya got it fixed, and thanks for letting us know! Happy Holidays.
 
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