Correct placement of bleeder valves (key type) on loop system

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Old 11-20-12, 01:06 PM
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Swapping manual air bleed valve for an automatic one question

Hi I have problems keeping air out of my upstairs loop on my hydronic boiler heat system and was wondering if installing an auto bleeder on the last baseboard upstairs would work, also would it leave a puddle of water on my floor when it starts working, the auto bleeder i am thinking about is one of those small canister types gold in color. thanks for replies cleo
 
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Old 11-20-12, 01:26 PM
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What floor of the house are you speaking of and what is the pressure and temperature in your boiler? You shouldn't need an autovent up there.
 
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Old 11-20-12, 01:29 PM
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Putting an automatic air eliminator where you propose could be helpfuf. But do you already have an automatic air eliminator on your system that is working? Where is it installed? - photos would be helpful.

The question I have is where is the air coming from? As long as the system isn't opened up, such as for maintenance, air can't get in because the water pressure is higher than atmospheric. By the way, what does the boiler pressure/temp gauge say, both when cold and when hot?

Air can get into the system if there is a leak or if the relief valve is discharging - make up water automatically admitted to the system will contain disolved air that will come out once heated.

One more question - what kind of expansion tank do your have? Bladder type (looks like a BBQ propane cylinder) or conventional steel (horizontal tank hanging from the joists)? And how many storeys is your house?

Please answer the above questions, and we can help you.
 
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Old 11-20-12, 05:37 PM
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Me personally, I would not recommend an automatic bleeder anywhere but at the boiler itself, and even then depending on how it's piped, would be careful about where on the boiler piping I would install it.

Placing auto vents is risky in finished areas of a home.

They can slowly leak for LONG periods of time before being detected, causing wood rot, mold, destroyed carpeting, etc...

An auto vent up HIGH in the system can actually turn around and suck air INTO the system in some circumstances, and not as uncommon as it might seem.

The other guys have correctly asked for pressure/temp readings on your boiler and this is because when there are complaints of air in the high parts of a system it's almost ALWAYS because of a low pressure condition in the boiler itself.
 
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Old 11-21-12, 08:58 AM
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Replying to your questions

My boiler is a newer slant fin lynx with bladder type expansion chamber, boiler sits in basement of a 2 story house loop for 2nd story is tapped off first story loop, its the 2nd story baseboards iam having the trouble with air not first story, boiler pressure is between 15 - 18 psi cold or hot temp goes up to 176 degrees F before shuts off , The auto bleeder valve is located right above the expansion tank on the outgoing pipe which raises a question my old boiler had its auto bleeder located on the return pipe 3 feet from boiler so should this new boiler have one on return side too? I tried to get a picture on here but coulnt get it to download here. thanks cleo
 

Last edited by cleopatrisha; 11-21-12 at 09:09 AM. Reason: added more info
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Old 11-21-12, 10:39 AM
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here are instructions for posting photos:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ga...st-photos.html
To go much further we do need to see some photos. But, No you normally don't need more than one air eliminator. Is the cap on yours screwed down tightly? If so, no air can come out - need to loosen the cap.

 
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Old 11-23-12, 03:11 PM
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The problem will intensify with the addition of an auto vent in the highpoint.

The problem is circulator location or air separator not working or missing.

An auto vent at the high point can suck air in and be more of a headache.

The system needs to have a minimum of 4 psi at all times. If the pump is on the return the pressure in the high point of the system drops when the pump runs. If the pump is on the supply as it should have been over the last 50 years it adds pressure to the system. I would never add an autovent in the high point of a hot system.
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-23-12 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 11-24-12, 01:37 PM
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Boiler set up question with pictures

Hi, I am having trouble with air in my 2nd story baseboards, and am beginning to wonder if my boiler was plumbed right, If you look at picture you see the main water feed connects to that steel pipe just above the expansion tank, is that where the fresh water should be connected? the two pipes going down to boiler the left one is outgoing and the right one is the return with that said you see the loop is connected above the boiler does that seem right because on my old boiler the loop was not connected outside the boiler, Also the automatic air bleeder is located above the expansion tank on the outgoing pipe side does that seem right because on my old boiler the auto air bleeder was on the return pipe just above the boiler, every time I refill my upstairs loop within a week I can start to hear water gurgling in pipe, nothing is leaking, boiler runs around 18psi and temp gauge goes to 176 degrees when hot. this is a new boiler, its a slant/fin gas boiler, any suggestions welcome thank you Cleo
 
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Last edited by cleopatrisha; 11-24-12 at 01:40 PM. Reason: added a few more words
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Old 11-24-12, 05:18 PM
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If you look at picture you see the main water feed connects to that steel pipe just above the expansion tank, is that where the fresh water should be connected?
You can see that? I can't! I can only guess that there is a TEE fitting there and the water feed comes in on the backside where we can't see it.

YES, that is preferred, and correct.

you see the loop is connected above the boiler does that seem right because on my old boiler the loop was not connected outside the boiler,
YES, that seems right. This is a piping method known as PRIMARY/SECONDARY and has many advantages over the 'old school' way of doing things.

Also the automatic air bleeder is located above the expansion tank on the outgoing pipe side does that seem right
YES, that seems EXACTLY right. Again, modern tech, the RIGHT way, versus 'old school'. Much has been learned in the past 25 years!

=================================

It is OBVIOUS to me at least that the person(s) who installed your system were VERY good. They know all the modern techniques and have all the modern tools. JACKLEG installers would not own or use a "PROPRESS" tool. They would rather spend the several thousand dollars that tool cost your installers on beer at the bar after knocking off the job at 3PM, getting home drunk at midnight, sleeping a few hours and showing up at your house the next morning still half drunk.

=================================

Regarding your pictures:

Please figure out how to rotate them upright BEFORE you upload them. I almost spilled my beer trying to turn my monitor sideways!

Try to get a little bit more light in the pics, and PULL BACK with the camera some so we can see the WHOLE SYSTEM. Remember, we aren't there. We can't see what you see unless you show us.

That said, I would like some more pictures.

I want to see where the pipes up top are going to and coming from.

I want to see the other pump(s).

I would also like to see any other electronics, such as a zone control panel.

Simply because I like to admire good work... and, it may help us help you with your 'air problem'.

==================================

Lastly, you need to know that when a new system is filled with FRESH water, that that water has TONS of 'air' dissolved in it. That air will be released by the water SLOWLY and may be heard in the pipes for WEEKS. It's physics... it is what it is.

I installed a new system in my home a couple months ago and I still hear the vent letting air out from time to time. The sloshing in the pipes has been gone for some time now, but there is STILL air coming out of the water.

This is why you should NEVER drain a system once it's up and running unless it is needed for maintenance work... and then EXPECT air in the pipes afterward.

Other than the air, the system is heating the home properly, yes?
 
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Old 11-24-12, 05:24 PM
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every time I refill my upstairs loop
I noticed this comment after my reply...

What exactly do you mean by this?

Why are you having to "refill" your loop?

How so are you accomplishing this refill? In other words, what do you do to "refill" it?
 
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Old 11-24-12, 06:42 PM
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Other than violating a couple of p/s laws I don't see a system pump. I think I might be catching part of it on the supply after what looks like a purge set-up. Is the pressure dropping much between the fill times. What pressure are you running? How many stories are there not counting the basement?
BTW the two laws that were violated are the boiler tees spacing is not to exceed 4 times the diameter of the primary pipe (pipe the tees are mounted on) between the branch of the tees. The second is from an elbow there is supposed to be a minimum of 8 pipe diameters before the tees and a minimum or 4 pipe diameters after the tees which it looks like you have.

See drawing 6 on this link http://www.comfort-calc.net/primary-..._tutorial.html
 
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Old 11-24-12, 08:48 PM
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BTW the two laws that were violated are the boiler tees spacing is not to exceed 4 times the diameter of the primary pipe (pipe the tees are mounted on) between the branch of the tees. The second is from an elbow there is supposed to be a minimum of 8 pipe diameters before the tees and a minimum or 4 pipe diameters after the tees
I noticed that too, didn't think it big cause for concern really... not IDEAL, but should still work OK in spite of... I think...

And it won't cause the air problem.
 
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Old 11-25-12, 03:55 PM
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Cool reply

Thank you for answering my post.

my house has 2 stories not counting the basement and when I get air in 2nd story pipes I don't bother bleeding at registers because its a waste of tiime, so what I do is shut off each pipe besides the one that goes to my second story then I hook a garden hose to the purge valve on the return pipe, I shut off 2 more valve to boiler so water will only pass through my second story piping and no where else, i lift lever at pressure reducer open valve garden hose is attached to and wait till air is pushed out.

But next week or so there will be gurgling sounds in my second story pipe again, I have no idea why just the second story and not the first story.

My system has 2 pumps one on outgoing and one on return side, outgoing pipe is one pipe that branches to different areas and they all connect back to single return pipe going into boiler

Would it be a benefit to install a 3rd pump on my 2nd story loop ?

thank you cleo
 

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Old 11-25-12, 08:12 PM
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Try not purging when you get the noise. Close all auto air vents up in the system. When the noise appears raise the pressure. When you purge you keep adding oxygen, minerals and chemicals. You have a micro-bubbler air separator. With these adding pressure may help as higher pressure water will hold more air getting it down to the air elimination.
Will the distances on the Tees cause air problem? Probably not but can affect the mixing and flow in and out of the boiler due to a high turbulence, this should be a laminar flow area.
 
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Old 11-26-12, 04:24 PM
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That said, I would like some more pictures.

I want to see where the pipes up top are going to and coming from.

I want to see the other pump(s).

I would also like to see any other electronics, such as a zone control panel.

As rbeck has said, each time you flush the pipe, you are adding MORE AIR to the system because the fresh water has tons of air dissolved in it.

Don't believe it? Take a clear glass and fill it with water from the tap and place it on the counter top. Come back a couple hours later. See all those bubbles? That's air that has come out of solution in the water.

SAME THING is happening in your heating system. I explained it briefly in a previous post:

Lastly, you need to know that when a new system is filled with FRESH water, that that water has TONS of 'air' dissolved in it. That air will be released by the water SLOWLY and may be heard in the pipes for WEEKS. It's physics... it is what it is.

I installed a new system in my home a couple months ago and I still hear the vent letting air out from time to time. The sloshing in the pipes has been gone for some time now, but there is STILL air coming out of the water.

This is why you should NEVER drain a system once it's up and running unless it is needed for maintenance work... and then EXPECT air in the pipes afterward.
EVERY TIME YOU ADD FRESH WATER YOU ARE CONTINUING THE PROBLEM.

So STOP DOING THAT!

The reason you are getting air upstairs is because air goes UP in water! Simple physics.

Also, because as you go UP the pressure is lower and it is easier for the air to come out of the water and form bubbles.

Rbeck suggested raising the pressure and that would be my suggestion also. ALLOW the air separator to do it's job. In time, you won't hear the air anymore.

But please show us the pictures of the other equipment in the meantime, maybe we'll see something that might be causing the trouble.
 
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Old 12-04-12, 10:38 AM
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Correct placement of bleeder valves (key type) on loop system

On a hydronic boiler system is it true air bleed valves should be located on any elbow where copper pipe drops or decends ?
 
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Old 12-04-12, 11:00 AM
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Where did you hear that Cleo?

Bleed valves don't HAVE to be located anywhere... it sure is RECOMMENDED that they are installed at certain places in a system.

One certain place that they will work best at removing air is at an elbow that heads downward. This is one point that the air will tend to collect and be easily removed by the bleeder.

Why do you ask?
 
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Old 12-04-12, 11:25 AM
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I am asking because I have no bleed valve at the top of a pipe that decends about 12 feet and in this 12 foot vertical return section is where I am always having trouble with air and no way to bleed it properly.
 
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Old 12-04-12, 11:34 AM
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Is this a continuation of your earlier thread about your air problems?

I believe I will merge this question with your old thread so that we may have a history to follow.
 
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Old 12-05-12, 07:52 AM
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nobody asked

hey moderator nobody asked you to merge my new questions with old forgotten ones so stop that without permission from author
 
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Old 12-05-12, 09:11 AM
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Cleo, your response is rude and condescending.

As forum moderators we run our forums as WE see fit.

I don't have to ask for 'permission' from the author of a thread to merge questions together if in my opinion it would be beneficial to the discussion and ultimately the person posting the question.

I will continue to moderate this forum as I see fit.

Please try to control your outbursts.
 
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