Baxi Luna HT380 questions

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Old 12-06-12, 08:30 PM
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Baxi Luna HT380 questions

Purchased a 4 bedroom house 3+ years ago here in Concord New Hampshire and have questions about the Baxi Luna HT380 Condensing boiler. For those of you that are not familiar with this boiler I will give you more details.

The Baxi Luna HT380 is a wall hung, 98% efficient condensing boiler manufactured in France. It supplies BOTH forced and domestic hot water, can be set for propane or natural gas. My boiler is connected to Natural Gas.

The house is two story with a basement. the house looks like a one story from the front but has a full dormer across the back. When the house was first built (I'll get the date shortly) the house was originally setup for what I believe was electric baseboard heating. I determined this by the 150 amp panel in the basement that had a number of double pole breakers that where not wired to anything. I figured that when the house was built the electric rates here in New Hampshire where very low.

t one point a high pressure natural gas line was installed down the street. Alongside this high pressure line a low pressure line was installed to supply NG to the houses out here in rural America. A natural gas line was run to the house to supply the Baxi and a gas clothes drier.

The house has three loops, basement, first floor & second floor. Three Taco Circulators (two Taco 007-F4's and one Taco 007-F5) connected to Honeywell RA832A boxes.

A number of finned copper lines where hung along the ceiling in the basement in a couple of places as well as some baseboard runs. Standard baseboard heaters where installed on the 1st & 2nd floors.

Shortly after I moved in I added two baseboard heaters in the 1st floor dining room and a toekick hydronic heater under the kitchen sink. I tied the two systems into the 1st floor loop with pex & sharkbites.

The 1st floor baseboard heaters where plumbed plumbed from the basement ceiling up through the 1st floor and the 2nd floor baseboard is supplied by two copper lines run up through two linen closets, in the 1st & second floor bathrooms. Both bathrooms are cookie cutter bathrooms (same layout) with the linen closets on the outside wall. All in all i think it was a pretty clean retrofit. I should mention that the original install was all copper. The only pex runs are to the dining room and toekick heater.

Only problem I have had with the actual boiler was with the internal Grundfos 3 speed UPS 15-62 circulator pump. I was working in the basement one evening when all of a sudden the boiler started popping and groaning followed by the pressure regulator spewing some water. The system shut-down and was displaying an over temp error code on the front display. I found that the cartridge in the Grundfos had frozen up. I closed all valves to the boiler, and removed the circulator cartridge. I was able to free it back up, re-installed and ordered a replacement cartridge. I replaced the cartridge when I received the new cartridge and I kept the original for a backup in case I have the same issue down the road.

I'm on 3/4 of an acre with a 100' well. House water pressure is set to 40 - 60 PSI. I run my well water through a strainer, a large fiberglass calcite (ground marble) tank to remove a high concentration of manganese. I then run the water through a whirlpool filter that's set to backflush every 15 days.

This system was installed by a local company before I had purchased the home. I am very impressed/satisfied with the system but have some questions about the settings and such. I will add some PICS of the system. It's getting late & need to hit the sack.

The pressure gauge displays in Bar and the digital temp display is celsius.
The fresh water line runs thru a Watts 9D check valve;
1156F High Capacity Feed Water Pressure Regulators, Boiler Feed Water Pressure Regulators, Water Safety & Flow Control - Watts

Then through a Watts 1156F pressure regulator;
1156F High Capacity Feed Water Pressure Regulators, Boiler Feed Water Pressure Regulators, Water Safety & Flow Control - Watts

A DiversiTech CP 22 condensate pump is located under the Baxi;
Product Line - DiversiTech


Here are some links to the Baxi;

Install Guide;
Download Baxi Luna HT 380 Installation Guide - rev 07-2008.pdf for free - Ebookbrowse.com - Ebook Search & Free Ebook Downloads

Manual;
https://www.parts4heating.com/v/vspf.../LunaHT380.pdf

I took some Hi-Rez PICS but see that JPG's can't be over 50KB. What program can I use to re-size to 50KB in size? (I don't want to go smaller) or shall I post on my web site I link to them in a higher resolution?
 

Last edited by McHero; 12-06-12 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 12-06-12, 08:54 PM
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I just KNEW you were going to say Manganese! YUCK... I HATE Manganese! hope your calcite removes it... nasty black crap...

Yeah, gettin' late here too... so I guess you will post your questions tomorrow then.
 
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Old 12-06-12, 09:12 PM
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My first question is how to re-size my 3MB pics down to 50K Trooper?

Yes the Manganese sucks but I have never seen any black crap as long as I keep calcite in the tank. I did have a whole house filter after the Calcite tank but got tired of having to replace the filter every 30 days or so due to low water pressure. A bi-product of the Calcite is a white powder that was plugging the whole house filter. The Whirlpool filter, Model WHELJ1 took care of the filter changes every month. Works like a champ.
 
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Old 12-07-12, 08:37 AM
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If you want us to look at any details of the system, my advice would be to set up a free account at Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing | Photobucket and upload the pics FULL RES to a PUBLIC album there. Come back here and drop a link to the album for us to view off-site.

If you are concerned with size bcuz of upload/download times, etc, look for a setting on your camera that will reduce the size of the photos.

Or, use program such as Photoshop to resize / resample to reduce the size of file.

If you upload them here to the forum, they will be resized and may not be of much use to us for viewing details and such.
 
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Old 12-07-12, 10:42 AM
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Here is a shot of the Baxi. The unit is venter thru the outside wall to the left. Note the size of the gas line, proper size. Just to the top right you can see the hot water (baseboard) supply line that transistions to a 1" line just in front of the top of the boiler. The 1 inch line is connected to the three zone checkvalves. Below you can see the watts backflow and pressure regulator. I have a closer shot of the lower half.



Here's a closer pic of the plumbing below. The Watts 1156f has been a problem. Just about every 1 to 1-1/2 years I have to replace. The seat assembly gets stuck and will not allow any water through if the pressure drops on the boiler side. I have just replaced it last week. Out of the box it's preset to just about 15PSI yet the fargin quick fill valve does not work. The brass rod between the quick fill and the stem is too short so the quick fill lever does nothing! I did not touch the quick fill, it was installed straight out of the box. The plumbing for the backflow and pressure regulator is to close to the boiler in my opinion. When I swap out the pressure regulator i have to make sure the width is spot on ot I start getting drips from the fittings under the boiler if I have to spread the copper to get the hardware in. I might replum down the road. The condensate pump gets slimey, Should I use the pills or just pour a small amount of bleach in the tank to clean. I'm on a septic. Oh, that copper line between the boiler and condenstae pump. It was eaten thru from the condensate. It must be really acidic! I just replaced. ]

 

Last edited by McHero; 12-07-12 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 12-07-12, 11:53 AM
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Here's the circulators, Water flows from top to bottom. From left to right, Basement, 2nd floor and 1st floor. 1st floor zone is split into two branches, more on that later.

 
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Old 12-07-12, 12:12 PM
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Boiler closeup's

Here's the front panel removed and the panel laying (hanging) face down. Trooper, pump set to 2nd speed.



Here's the cover to the boiler chamber removed. internal expansion tank to the left. I ended up adding additional expansion tank, It's on the manifold under the circulators. Should it be on the return side?

 
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Old 12-07-12, 12:32 PM
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Oh, that copper line between the boiler and condenstae pump. It was eaten thru from the condensate.
Check p. 4 of the installation manual. Only plastic pipe should be used for the condensate line.

The plumbing for the backflow and pressure regulator is to close to the boiler in my opinion. When I swap out the pressure regulator i have to make sure the width is spot on ot I start getting drips from the fittings under the boiler if I have to spread the copper to get the hardware in.
The 9D and pressure relief valve are installed inside a very short, rigid loop. When you go to replace either component or tighten the 9D's unions, you will be putting a lot of stress on the pipe. You need longer loops to achieve some piping flexibility and put a separate, stand-alone union after one of the els.

Also, the 9D needs to have a metal pipe connected to the center discharge port, extending down within a couple of inches of the basement floor.
 
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Old 12-07-12, 01:50 PM
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Gilmorrie,

Thanks for the tip on the plastic only on the condensate drain. I'll have to go over the manual again! (what else did I miss)


I Believe me, I found out real quick about the tight loop! That's the 2nd pressure regulator I have replaced and each time I have to play with the fittings to try & keep zero pressure on the copper lines. I'll have to redesign. If I'm going to be replacing the regulator I'll want unions on both sides for quick swap out. I need to connect lines to BOTH the back flow & expansion valve down to the floor.

Thanks again
 
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Old 12-07-12, 02:37 PM
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If I'm going to be replacing the regulator I'll want unions on both sides for quick swap out.
I would put a union in one of the pipe sections that is perpendicular to the line with the 9D and PRV - that will help provide flexibility when you have to spring the pipe. Re-piping to provide additional or larger loops would be a good idea, too.

Back on the failure rate of the Watts pressure reducing valve: When you repipe, you might consider putting a ball valve in parallel with the PRV (but not the 9D). That way, when you go to fill the boiler or if the PRV gets stuck again, you've got a manual way to get water into the boiler.

I can't understand the problem with the fast-fill feature of your new PRV - but it looks like the operating lever may be missing unless it is hidden in your photos. See: 1156F High Capacity Feed Water Pressure Regulators, Boiler Feed Water Pressure Regulators, Water Safety & Flow Control - Watts Otherwise, call Watts and get their input.

Watts offers a repair kit that might be more economical that replacing the entire valve in the future: Repair Kits for 1156F High Capacity Feed Water Pressure Regulators - Water Safety & Flow Control - Support

Have you been routinely draining and refilling your boiler? If so, don't. It is unnecessary, adds air to the system, and will add additional wear and tear to your PRV, particularly if the fast-fill feature is kaput.

I don't see an air removal device in your photos. Do you have one?
 
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Old 12-07-12, 04:34 PM
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When you re-pipe, you might consider putting a ball valve in parallel with the PRV (but not the 9D).
Correction: best use a globe valve bypass around the PRV rather than a ball valve. Better for throttling while manually filling the boiler.
 
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Old 12-07-12, 05:10 PM
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I dunno Gil, I think I would rather a ball valve for that purpose... simply because of the 'positive shutoff' benefit. Yeah, not great for throttling, but easy enough to just let a trickle or a full flow on the relatively few occasions that they get used. Just my personal choice...

If you are actually using a ball valve ALL THE TIME for throttling, THEN I would say yeah, use a globe... such as in a bypass or balancing application.

Robert, you might wish to consider the use of a condensate NEUTRALIZER. If that stuff rotted out the copper pipe, imagine what it might be doing to whatever pipe is leading to your septic system!

You can purchase pre-made ones, or 'roll your own'.

Here's a good article:

TMB - Plumbing Engineer - Columns: January 2009: Modern Hydronics
 
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Old 12-07-12, 05:26 PM
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Trooper, a ball valve was my first instinctive choice - but I was using globe valves back when ball valves weren't even cool.
 
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Old 12-07-12, 05:35 PM
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It's hard to find a GOOD globe valve these days anyway. Most people would confuse a cheap STOP valve from HD or Lowes as a globe valve. Those I would absolutely NEVER, EVER use in ANY system, potable or otherwise.

I sorta remember back before ball valves were even invented! (but I might have been what, 12 years old then?)
 
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Old 12-08-12, 08:41 AM
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Thanks for the tips on the back flow preventer/ pressure regulator plumbing. I was planning to re plumb so that I don't have ANY pressure or torque issues on the pipes. Indeed plumbed too tight and much too close to the fittings under the boiler. I'd be shut down for a number of days if I where to break or crack any of those fittings under the boiler.


The repair kit was brought up a couple times with family. I get the costs just as much to get the kit than purchase a complete pressure regulator. The 1156F has a repair kit available but the B1156F does not. My question is why Watts manufactures BOTH the B1156F (bronze cast) and the 1156F (bronze iron cast)???? Whats the cost on the repair kit? The complete valve is about 32.00.



The fill valve issue on the new 1156F is due to that rod between the lever and the seat & disc assembly, just too short. Odd that it would be an issue on the new regulator.

I'll have to pull the condensate pump & figure out how to re plumb with the fact that I might have to change the PRV avert two or so years.
 
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Old 12-08-12, 08:10 PM
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that rod between the lever and the seat & disc assembly, just too short
Can ya pull it out and measure it?

I just measured the rod in mine... almost exactly 1-7/8", and it sticks above the threaded adjuster about an eighth of an inch.

Do you have the water to the valve turned ON? or OFF?

I think that rod will move depending on how far open the valve is. If the inlet water is turned OFF, it might retract into the valve.
 
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Old 12-08-12, 08:31 PM
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If you do end up re-doing that line, take a look at this setup:



To the right of the 9D there is a WYE strainer, then where it elbows down is a boiler drain, below that (not in pic) is another ball valve to shut off the water.

I know ppl have asked about the hose off the bfp vent, saying it should be copper, but inspector didn't bat an eye at it. (honestly, I don't think he knew what he was even looking at!)

The boiler drain is intended to periodically flush out that water line and general utility use. I too am on private well (no chlorine) and don't like the idea of piping 'dead ends' where water could sit for ages before moving... who knows what creepies can grow in a dead end pipe?

It's always a good idea to heavily flush the boiler feed line before installing a new valve.
 
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Old 12-09-12, 08:44 AM
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OK, House water comes up from the lower right hand side. That's a yellow ball valve handle I see in the bottom right corner correct? Is that the main shutoff for the boiler feed? Line runs up to what looks like a valve with a blue handle on it, that's your drain? Line runs up, 90's to the left then the WYE Strainer, 9D and then the 1156F. OK looks good & gives me more to think about!

As you can see in my configuration I don't have too much space to work with. My feed line drops down from the ceiling along the right hand side of the boiler, Feeds the DHW inlet and the feed for the FHW loop.

I think if I drop the condensate pump lower I should be able to come up with a plan. I like the idea of the drain. I could place that on the very bottom so I could drain ALL water "if" I ever ad to winterize.

Thanks for the ideas NJ Trooper, your making my To Do list longer!! LOL

Thanks everyone for the ideas & such!!

I think I need to post some PICS of my well pump and the filtration I'm using as well.
 

Last edited by McHero; 12-09-12 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 12-09-12, 11:21 AM
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Well... that yellow ball valve isn't actually the water shutoff, that's one of my 'purge stations', but just below that, out of the picture there is another ball valve.

In any case, yes, correct.

One other thing to mention, at the time of the photo it was not installed but there is now a small ball valve in place of the 'plug' on the wye strainer that serves to flush any debris from the strainer.

I think if I drop the condensate pump lower I should be able to come up with a plan. I like the idea of the drain. I could place that on the very bottom so I could drain ALL water "if" I ever ad to winterize.
Couldn't you move the tee for the boiler water feed over to the vertical pipe coming down and pick up about 6" that way?

I think I need to post some PICS of my well pump and the filtration I'm using as well.
I would look at them... but it might be a little 'off topic' for here... might be better to post a thread over where the water dudes hang out. Let me know if you do.
 
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Old 12-09-12, 09:36 PM
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OK, I really appreciate the good information on the fill side of the boiler. Not sure when I will start that project, perhaps in the spring unless I get bored this winter. I just have to make sure I don't end up doing something that might shut down the system. Not very easy to get parts for this boiler in a timely manner.

During my first winter I was having issues with the pressure. I determined the expansion tank inside the Baxi was not adequate. If only one lzone was in operation the pressure was OK but if I have all three zone on the pressure would rise. I ended up installing an expansion tank BELOW the circulators. So the expansion tank is on the return side of boiler. Should I move it over to the supply side?

Getting late, time to hit the sack!

Robert
 
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Old 12-10-12, 04:15 PM
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the expansion tank is on the return side of boiler. Should I move it over to the supply side?
Hard to say...

Read this article...

Pumping Away

This one is good too:

http://www.fiainc.com/documents/4-09...treallmean.pdf

Then, if it's possible for you to sketch up a 'system piping diagram' (doesn't have to be SUPER accurate, just enough for us to understand how the system is currently piped), we might be able to look at that and suggest some changes that would benefit.
 
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Old 12-11-12, 05:25 AM
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Thanks fro the posts, I have some reading to do & then I'll work on the diagram of my system.

RM
 
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