Radiant floor air problem-new wife ready to kill HELP

Reply

  #1  
Old 12-07-12, 05:12 AM
M
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 7
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Radiant floor air problem-new wife ready to kill HELP

Morning,

I am having trouble bleeding the radiant floor system in my house. I had to install a valve in the system(only about 3 gallons of water came out) , and since then I keep having air in other loops and the radiant doesnt seem up to par. the house has 6 zones and 1 is radiant, now about every 5 or so days I am having to purge the other loops due to air bubbles from the radiant loop. I keep flushing the system to get rid of the air in the other loops however the radiant loop is just a trickle.

The radiant loop totals about 200 feet, with a mixing value at the boiler. If you can picture it, instead of one solid hose loop, the loop has a copper supply linefrom the boiler going to the floor area and then runs along the radiant floor section. From there there are 5 hoses (about 40 ft each) broken off along the 15ft supply line, and they run under the flooring and then return to the return line just like the supply (15ft copper pipe in 5 returns). Then the system returns to the boiler.

How do I purge the system to get all of the lines full of water? When I purge at the boiler, due to the seperate (5) hoses, the water may be just running through one hose and returning to the boiler.

Thanks guys have a good holiday
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 12-07-12, 03:05 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
How do I purge the system to get all of the lines full of water? When I purge at the boiler, due to the seperate (5) hoses, the water may be just running through one hose and returning to the boiler.
What kind of valving is available to isolate various parts of the system?

Do you know if you have what we refer to as 'purge stations' (a drain valve followed immediately by a stop valve) on your system?

Can you take some pics so we can see what you are working with?
 
  #3  
Old 12-10-12, 08:15 AM
M
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 7
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
valves

NJ Trooper,

Hey thanks for the reply. The only values (2) are at the boiler (supply and return). I attached a quick drawing of the set up. The loop hoses are connected to a copper line that runs the floor line, for both the supply and return. There are 4 hose loops.

If you need more pics let me know, thanks again for the help
Cheers

 
Attached Images  

Last edited by ray2047; 12-10-12 at 09:27 AM. Reason: Enlarge and rotate image.
  #4  
Old 12-10-12, 02:33 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
What does it mean, "rubber" in the drawing? What kind of tubing was used? Brand? Any markings on the 'hose'?

I keep flushing the system to get rid of the air
This is always a big "Catch 22" with hydronic systems.

Being that fresh water has tons of dissolved 'air' that is liberated when heated, what you end up doing is literally flushing air with dissolved air, that then becomes air again and needs flushing again, ad infinitum.

Your system should have been installed with proper valves such that you could direct the water into the zone or tube that you need to. Sadly, far too many systems are installed 'on the cheap' and the installers try to save a few bucks by leaving out the proper valving.

When I purge at the boiler, due to the seperate (5) hoses, the water may be just running through one hose and returning to the boiler.
It might not even be running through one hose... if there is no valve in the way which can be closed to induce the water to actually go through the system piping, there's a good chance it simply takes the path of least resistance and in the boiler, and out the boiler without ever flowing through any of the zones.

Does your system have a proper air removal system at least? i.e. an air scoop and some sort of automatic air vent?

Can you post some photos of the boiler and the associated piping?
 
  #5  
Old 12-10-12, 07:21 PM
M
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 7
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Additional pics

In the photos below one show the mixing valve and circulator pump, one show the supply and return copper pipes that run the length of the radiant floor, one shows the return valves, and one shows the rubber omni lines that run in the loop and how they connect to the copper supply and return lines.

There are no valves to close off any loop in the radiant zone, you can see in the pics the rubber tubes are T'ed off throughout the line.

The only air vent out of all the whole system (including all zones) is an air eliminator on the boiler (it can be seen to the left onto of the boiler in the return valves pic). There are no scoops or elbo air eliminator at the base board pieces.

Thanks again for the help, anything is much appreciated
 
Attached Images     
  #6  
Old 12-10-12, 07:40 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
Those pics are a bit on the small size for my tired old eyes to see much... and they are sideways!

Not sure I got an answer:

What does it mean, "rubber" in the drawing? What kind of tubing was used? Brand?

Any markings on the 'hose'?



one show the mixing valve
Don't see any mixing valves? I see "Flow Control" valves... you mean the T shaped valves on top of the pumps?

If you upload pics to the forum they will get resized smaller. Better to set up free account at Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing | Photobucket and upload high res pics there... come back here and drop link to your PUBLIC album for us to view. (and rotate upright if you can!)
 
  #7  
Old 12-10-12, 08:58 PM
T
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,174
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
From the small pic I saw, it looks like watts radiant onyx tubing.
If it is then that is good news.
Get your self some clamps that you can close over the rubber part of the tube on the supply or return of each loop.
Clamp off 4 of the 5 loops and purge each until the water is free of air, then clamp off the return and move to the next in line until your done.

Who ever installed this don't read manuals (imagine that),cause if he did he would have known he could have run 200' of onxy in one circuit.

If they had crafted the header reverse return it *might* have had a fighting chance of flowing in a balanced way thru each loop.
 
  #8  
Old 12-11-12, 07:15 AM
M
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 7
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
nj trooper, hoheating

Morning guys, thanks once again for the help.

Nj trooper- the rubber hose refers to the onyx rubber tubing running through the loops, in the pic with the circulator pumps the little gauage you see has the mixing valve attached to it on the back (little green knob)

HOheating- thanks for the reply and the input, few quick questions,
-should i install a shut off valve in each loop to get ride of the air (one at a time)?
-or when you say clamp the lines, just use like vise grips?
-would it be better to try and connect the lines to make one circut (it may be aroud 300ft then)?

thanks again for the help guys
 
  #9  
Old 12-11-12, 02:18 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
OK, Onyx, that's good...

I think TO won't mind me answering... least I hope not!

Shutoff valves... only if you want to make work for yourself.

Clamp the lines... I don't think you need vice grips, and in fact if too tight you could damage the tubing. I would think those heavy spring clamps would/should work and are much cheaper than three pairs of vice grips.


image courtesy homedepot.com

Try squeezing with fingers first to see how much tension you need and if these are enough.

One circuit... I don't think so, sounds like a lot of work for little to no gain.
 
  #10  
Old 12-12-12, 03:39 AM
M
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: usa
Posts: 7
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Awesome, ok last few questions then I need to mail you guys a case of beer, in terms of complete system (I had some gurgling in the baseboards this morning) do you bleed the shortest loop first or do the radiant and then the rest? There are 3 baseboard zones with no air eliminators in the zones, should I install automatic ones at the highest point of each baseboard radiator? If so would you install the eliminator at the supply end of the radiator or before it returns down into the floor?

thanks again guys
 
  #11  
Old 12-13-12, 07:35 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 3 Votes on 2 Posts
do you bleed the shortest loop first or do the radiant and then the rest?
Hard to call that one without being there. Use whatever strategy would seem to work without much chance of injecting air back into loops already bled.

should I install automatic ones at the highest point of each baseboard radiator?
No. Automatic bleeders have no business in a baseboard enclosure. They will eventually and ultimately leak and that leak could easily go undetected for long periods of time... after the wood rot, and mold has set in. In some cases, depending on how the system has been piped, it is possible for an auto bleeder to actually suck air INTO the system. Manual bleeders are OK if needed.

would you install the eliminator at the supply end of the radiator or before it returns down into the floor?
No. The best place for an air bleeder would be at the DOWNSTREAM end, before turning down. Any air in the system will be pushed in that direction and that's where it will collect. Often these are best bled with the pump RUNNING.
 
Reply
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: