New condensing boiler cycling too much


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Old 12-27-12, 07:58 AM
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New condensing boiler cycling too much

My Peerless Purefire PF-110 boiler is cycling about 100 times a day. I set the output to 50% and that doesn't make a difference.

I have 3 CH zones and a DWH:
Basement = 17 feet of slantfin baseboard
1st floor = 43 feet
2nd floor (domer Cape Cod style) = 38
DWH = 30 gal low boy
Pumps are used for the zones.

My previous boiler was an old Peerless 120K/88K boiler that used a single Taco-007 to pump through 3 valves. I did not have a DWH, then.

I've read through the DIY posts and am now worried that I got bad advice regarding the size of my boiler. (I bought the boiler 2 years ago and only installed it in early October. The company is now out of business.)

Can anyone suggest how I can bring the cycling down to a reasonable level?

Thanks.
 
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Old 12-27-12, 09:30 AM
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The company is now out of business.)
Really? Thier website is up and I have read nothing that they are out of business. Are you talking about the company that installed the unit?

Here is your install manual for reference.

http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Deskt...hod=attachment


100 times in a day equates to about once every 15 minutes in a 24 hour period. Is this what you are suggesting? Sounds pretty good to me. Its been somewhat cold here in NJ.

Even if oversized the min input on that boiler is 27k btu. So you would fire on low fire to meet heat demand.

Of course did the installer install the outdoor reset?

Did the installer plumb the unit properly?

We would of course like to see pics of the system. Well lit and from all angles. Near and far of all piping, pumps, controls...etc.

We can start there to help you get a better understanding of your system. And of course you setting may be not configured properly. Once we see the piping we can guide you further.
 
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Old 12-27-12, 07:06 PM
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Hi Mike,

thanks for your reply.

I purchased the boiler from an online company that no longer deals with Peerless boilers.

I did all of the work myself. The seller recommended the boiler based on the size of my old boiler and the fact that I wanted to add the 30 gal DWH. I purchased the pumps from a local supplier who provided the advice as to which pumps would be suitable. The supplier also reviewed my plumbing design. A few weeks after all was done I decided to have the system inspected by a well-known HVAC & Plumbing company who sent a contractor familiar with this particular boiler. He checked all of the settings and reported that he didn't see anything obvious. He felt everything was "well done". He agreed that 100 cycles per day seemed like lot, but wasn't too concerned about it. I asked him about the 10 inch rule for piping, but he wasn't aware of that.

Here are the photos of the system...

The T's coming off of the primary loop are 3 1/2 inches between centers.
The T's are rotated 90 degrees with respect to one another -- is that a mistake?
I wonder if the pipe lengths on either side of the primary pump are too short.

Thanks again for your feedback!

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Old 12-27-12, 07:13 PM
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I don't know if what you did is 100% correct but I'll give you an A+ for a nice neat install.
 
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Old 12-31-12, 05:56 AM
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Thanks for the grade PJMax! I'm hoping someone will weigh in on my cycling issue. If I need to change anything I'd like to do it sooner than later. January gets cold. Anyone out there that can help?
 
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Old 12-31-12, 08:40 AM
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This is totally wrong from what I see.


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Apparently you tried to follow this diagram. The flow through the system is constant through the tees, with supply on the right side of pic with circs. And the return on the left.

The close tees need to feed the system. Looks line you have the tees inbetween two zones and the other one on the return.


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I can see enough to tell if the indirect is piped correct. I will take another look but I believe you will need to do some major work there.
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 12-31-12 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 12-31-12, 08:47 AM
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I'm looking at the pics but can't seem to understand what you've done.

Which is the boiler pump, and which is the system pump?

Do you have a diagram of the piping that you can post?

Here's the manual for anyone that might wish to read:

http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Deskt...hod=attachment
 
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Old 12-31-12, 09:08 AM
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This is what I see.... What a mess....



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Old 12-31-12, 09:39 AM
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That's what I thought...

I don't know that I would have been that blunt though!

So, it appears then that the boiler loop is the primary and the system is the secondary?

Isn't that bass ackwards from the manual specs?
 
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Old 12-31-12, 09:43 AM
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don't know that I would have been that blunt though!
What do you mean??? This? ....LOL

This is what I see.... What a mess....

Yeah I guess the OP did this himself and I am not very encouraging.....










 
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Old 12-31-12, 09:45 AM
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On the other hand, it is still not determined if this is what may be causing the 100 cycles... IF IN FACT 100 cycles a day is wrong... it may not be.

LowEnergy, you need to take some learnin' on how to properly set up primary/secondary piping...

Look here:

http://comfort-calc.net/primary-seco..._tutorial.html

In particular, pay strict attention to Drawing 6. The dimensions shown are NOT negotiable.
 
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Old 12-31-12, 09:48 AM
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What do you mean??? This? ....LOL
Yeah... but how else to say it? Thanks for breaking the ice!
 
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Old 12-31-12, 06:14 PM
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Lawrosa & NJ Trooper, your bluntness is in fact appreciated. Thanks!

I see I need to do some rebuilding. Before I do so, I will ask many more questions than I did before. Apparently, I didn't do enough (good quality?) research the first time .

I piped the system according to the design recommended in the Peerless manual.

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That is, I placed the DHW parallel with the CH zones. The only deviation (I think) was the location of the air vent and expansion tank. The local plumbing store said it would be better to place that in the primary loop.

BTW -- the vertical pipe in the marked up photo that feeds the zones also feeds the DHW pump. One T points away from the wall and feeds into that vertical pipe towards the DHW T and then to the zone Ts. The green Taco 007 operates the DHW (1") loop. The other T points left and connects to the return manifold of the zones.

I've read through the piping tutorial and recognize that some of my pipe lengths are too short. I am unsure if my orientation of the T's though. (mine are spaced correctly, but set at a right angle to one another).

The spacing between the T's is less than 4" -- I got that right. (Yeah!)

One thing I did not mention previously is that the system is noisy. I don't think it's the pumps cavetating. With my old system (3 zones with zone valves and a single taco 007) I never heard water moving through the pipes. Never! Now, with the new system whenever the zones kick in I can hear water flowing through the pipes -- akin to the sound you hear when someone takes a shower (at least in my house). It's a rushing sound -- not gurgling of air. Sort of like when you constrict a garden horse. Rushhhhhh...

So... here is my first list of questions:

1] Do you recommend that I pipe the system according to figure 4.6 (the one you posted earlier)? If so, why -- just curious.
2] Do the T's have to be on the same plane, or can they be rotated 90 or even 180 degrees? (I suspect that increases the friction, but I don't see how/why).
3] I understand I have to place a minimum straight length of 10" before the pumps. Do I also do the same after the pumps?
4] Is there anything else I should/can do to minimize the sound through the pipes. I miss NOT hearing the water flow through the pipes.
5] Should I move the vent and expansion tank to the secondary loop?
5] Larosa indicates I need to make all those cuts. Are you suggesting to simply cut and add straight pipe lengths between the cuts (and of course, reorient everything to fit) -- or is there more to your suggestion.
6] I imagine (but don't know) that the rushing sound be reduced by repiping. What do you think?

That's probably a good start for now. After I hear from you I'll draw up a sketch and post it for your comments (blunt ones, please).

A humbled,
lowjoules
 
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Old 12-31-12, 07:18 PM
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I piped the system according to the design recommended in the Peerless manual.
That's not what I'm seeing though...

On a tee the ends are called the 'run' of the tee, and the side fitting is called the 'bull'.

What you built looks like it's REVERSED to me.

You've got the SYSTEM loop in and out of the BULL of the tees, and the BOILER in and out of the RUN of the tees. No? It looks all backward to me.

The only deviation (I think) was the location of the air vent and expansion tank. The local plumbing store said it would be better to place that in the primary loop.
What was the reasoning? They knew better than the MANUFACTURER? They were wrong.

5] Should I move the vent and expansion tank to the secondary loop?
Yes, and install it plumb when you do. The float in the spirovent will not work properly if it's canted like that.

1] Do you recommend that I pipe the system according to figure 4.6 (the one you posted earlier)? If so, why -- just curious.
I need to go to the manual to see what Peerless says about it, but my opinion is that taking the indirect off the boiler is better. You don't need to run an extra pump when making DHW, the DHW gets the hottest water possible for fastest recovery.

If you do go with the other method, the one you think you used, make sure that the water heater supply and returns are the ones closest to the closely spaced tees.

2] Do the T's have to be on the same plane, or can they be rotated 90 or even 180 degrees? (I suspect that increases the friction, but I don't see how/why).
I could just say yes, on the same plane, but the only reason I could give you is that it's the way it's always been done, and that's not really an answer. Fact is, I don't know, I would have to research and think about it.

3] I understand I have to place a minimum straight length of 10" before the pumps. Do I also do the same after the pumps?
No, but the more you can get on both sides the 'smoother' the flow. Anything you can do in a system to reduce a turbulent flow, the better.

4] Is there anything else I should/can do to minimize the sound through the pipes. I miss NOT hearing the water flow through the pipes.
Anything you can do in a system to reduce a turbulent flow, the better. Where did we hear that before? Your piping is kinda tied up in knots. You've got tons of tighty righty 90° elbows where you should have used 'long sweep' parts to minimize turbulence, U-turns (that 180° feeding the DHW is a prime example) that are restrictive, zig-zags, dog legs... all these things cause restrictions in the piping and all can contribute to noisy flow.

I just posted this pic in another thread today, it's a great illustration:


image courtesy delafleur.com

A very good example where two 45's should have been used instead of 90's is on that vertical pipe down to the pump manifold. There are other places where a 90 and a 45 could have been used, for example, the bottom zone pump, left side, you've got a 90 coming away from the wall and a 90 going up. (remember, use long sweeps) You could have turned the 90 on the end of the pipe up at a 45, then a 45 to connect to the riser pipe. That kind of stuff is what you need to watch for and be mindful of.

The way you are feeding the manifold too... coming in on the 'bull' of the tee fitting... that's wrong. Manifold should always be fed from the end. Using the tee in that fashion is extremely restrictive.

You need to develop an eye to visualize better ways to pipe the system to minimize all those restrictions. They are a big no-no.

6] I imagine (but don't know) that the rushing sound be reduced by repiping. What do you think?
Yes, I think, as long as you can reduce the restrictions it should be quieter.
 
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Old 01-01-13, 06:29 AM
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I'm astonished that I screwed up the run vs bull of the tees.

I'll be back to the drawing board -- literally -- in the next few days.

My system is presently plumped for 3 CH zones -- one for each floor:
Finished basement = 17 feet of slantfin baseboard
1st floor = 43 feet
2nd floor (dormer Cape Cod style) = 38

Is there any reason that I should simply combine everything into a single zone? I like the idea of keeping the temp down in the basement and 2nd floor when they are not in use.
 
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Old 01-01-13, 08:44 AM
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Here is my very primitive drawing......This is how it should be I think. With the indirect off the system.

I guess you can pipe off the boiler if you wanted as trooper suggests.


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Old 01-01-13, 11:27 AM
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lawrosa,

you make the fix look so easy.

Would I need to maintain a particular length of pipe entering the general circulator and DHW circulator? I read somewhere that there's a 5-10" rule for pipes entering a pump. This is suppose to prevent cavetating and should make the system quieter.

I could take the return side of the manifold and rotate 90 degrees so the drains and check valves point away from the wall. I would however have to zigzag the pipe: return, followed by tees to primary (run ends), zigzag and then supply to zone pumps. Is that acceptable?

I like the idea of not moving the spirovent and expansion tank. I was having a difficult time trying to find a good place for it in the space limit I have given myslef.

Moving the DHW to the primary loop also seems difficult to me with the space limitation. Moving to the primary loop seems to require more elbows. Per troppers recommendation I am trying to minimize the turns as much as possible. I will also replace as many turns with two 45s or at least a 90 sweep.

Incidentally, I can't seem to find 1" sweeps. Pexuniverse and pexsupply only carry 1" 90 deg. street sweeps. Do you have another source?

NJ Trooper -- what are your thoughts on lawrosa fix?
 
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Old 01-01-13, 11:54 AM
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Would I need to maintain a particular length of pipe entering the general circulator and DHW circulator?


I don't think so. I would have to look at the manual again. All I see in the schematic is a requirement for the close tees. Max 4 pipe dia.

I read somewhere that there's a 5-10" rule for pipes entering a pump. This is suppose to prevent cavetating and should make the system quieter.
Where did you read that? I probably would not worry about it.

I like the idea of not moving the spirovent and expansion tank. I was having a difficult time trying to find a good place for it in the space limit I have given myslef.


I would just leave it there. But I would add a AAV at the top of that return ell. Thats the ell thats above where the DHW tee is.


Moving the DHW to the primary loop also seems difficult to me with the space limitation.


I agree.

incidentally, I can't seem to find 1" sweeps. Pexuniverse and pexsupply only carry 1" 90 deg. street sweeps. Do you have another source?


I personally would not worry about sweeps. But thats just myself.








 
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Old 01-01-13, 12:33 PM
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Yes, good start...

First though, let's do a sanity check on flow directions.

The boiler pump is pumping TOWARD the boiler, corret?

The WH pump is TOWARD the WH, correct?

The ZONE pumps are on the SUPPLY side, pumping TOWARD the SYSTEM, correct?

Are the zone pumps the IFC variety? If so, lose those extra flow checks on the top manifold. I would much rather see them on the discharge side of the pump anyway... but if there's an elbow right after them they are likely to rattle because of the turbulence.

The SpiroVent and the expansion tank need to be on the SYSTEM loop and the zone pumps and WH pump must pump away from that point.

There IS a vertical mount SpiroVent available:

VJV100 - Spirotherm VJV100 - 1" Spirovent Jr. Vertical Air Eliminator (Threaded)

You could leave the existing one where it is, straighten it, plug the tank connection, move the tank to a tee next to the Spiro on the main loop (the vertical models have no tank connection.)
 
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Old 01-01-13, 12:43 PM
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Lawrosa,

I read about the 10D rule a number of places online. Basically it says to place a minimum of 5-10 diameters of pipe in front of the suction side of the pump. This prevents cavitation and produces a smooth flow. I also read that this is particularly important with elbows preceding the pump. Here's one reference:
http://www.pdhengineer.com/courses/m/M-3035.pdf

lowjoules
 
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Old 01-01-13, 12:51 PM
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I would forget about that article joules. Looks like its for a high velocity type of pump in a commercial environment.
 
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Old 01-01-13, 12:55 PM
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Incidentally, I can't seem to find 1" sweeps. Pexuniverse and pexsupply only carry 1" 90 deg. street sweeps. Do you have another source?
WP7LT-16 - Cello WP7LT-16 - 1" CxC 90° Long Turn Elbow

maintain a particular length of pipe entering the general circulator and DHW circulator?
It's best if you do. Get as much as you can...

I would however have to zigzag the pipe... Is that acceptable?
Minimize the zig-zags.

Moving the DHW to the primary loop
The DHW is already on the primary loop.

Primary is the run of the closely spaced tees. Secondary is the bull.

Where did you read that?
Rule #2.

Proper piping means that a straight shot of pipe is supplied to the pump that is at least ten (10) diameters of the pipe. We can this the 10D Rule
http://www.pumps-filters.com/images/...s,_2-16-00.pdf

Additional good pump info here:

http://www.lowara.com/lowdata/doc/EN...*lig-ed-en.pdf

Do it right...

I like the idea of not moving the spirovent and expansion tank
I don't. There won't be much if any air in the boiler loop to remove. You want to get the air out of the system, where the majority of the water will be flowing. Remember that in P/S piping, not ALL the water is guaranteed to go through the secondary loop.

If you can make room for it on the horizontal section that Mike says to put an AAV, do so. It would still meet the qualifications of 'pumping away', it's close enough to the pumps at that point.

But thats just myself.
Yes it is!

Do it right if you are going to do it at all...
 
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Old 01-01-13, 01:08 PM
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The boiler pump is pumping TOWARD the boiler, correct?

The WH pump is TOWARD the WH, correct?

The ZONE pumps are on the SUPPLY side, pumping TOWARD the SYSTEM, correct?
Yes to all three questions.

Are the zone pumps the IFC variety? If so, lose those extra flow checks on the top manifold. I would much rather see them on the discharge side of the pump anyway... but if there's an elbow right after them they are likely to rattle because of the turbulence.
I wish they were -- that would have saved space and perhaps a few bucks. Can I place the flow checks anywhere after the pumps? -- perhaps within a few feet? Or better yet, can I add an IFC valve to the B&G NRF22 circulators? I found an IFC replacement valve for a Taco 007. I assume I can install that into my Taco 007 pump

The SpiroVent and the expansion tank need to be on the SYSTEM loop and the zone pumps and WH pump must pump away from that point.....

....You could leave the existing one where it is, straighten it, plug the tank connection, move the tank to a tee next to the Spiro on the main loop (the vertical models have no tank connection.)
Ughhh.. more $$. (Should I remove the Spirovent I have a sell it on Ebay, perhaps?)

can I mount the tank vertically from on the vertical (red) system pipe just above the pair of tees of the primary loop? I guess I would need to secure the pipe feeding the tank with a strap attached to the ceiling?
 
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Old 01-01-13, 01:26 PM
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Can I place the flow checks anywhere after the pumps? -- perhaps within a few feet? Or better yet, can I add an IFC valve to the B&G NRF22 circulators? I found an IFC replacement valve for a Taco 007. I assume I can install that into my Taco 007 pump
Yes, the flow checks can be, and usually are, installed on the discharge side of the pump. Keep any kind of resriction such as elbows, valves, etc, as far from the flow check as possible, again, they WILL rattle and you will hear it all through the house.

I don't know if the IFC can be added to the NeRFs, or to a 'standard' 007... never had occasion to check.
 
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Old 01-01-13, 06:16 PM
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NJ Tropper,

You could leave the existing one where it is, straighten it, plug the tank connection, move the tank to a tee next to the Spiro on the main loop (the vertical models have no tank connection.)
So, you're suggesting I have two spirovents -- correct. Is it better to eliminate the one on the primary (boiler loop) completely?

I probably could place a new VERTICAL spirovent between the system end of the tees and the zone circulators --yes? What do you think?

Can I simply leave the expansion tank on the primary loop where it is? Must the expansion tank be placed in a specific spot. Does it make a difference?

You used the terms main loop, secondary loop, boiler loop and primary loop. I just want to make sure that we're talking about the same thing here (becuase I've read that the boiler loop can also be designed to be the secondary loop)...
In my case..
a] boiler is in the primary loop (also called boiler loop)
b] heating zones are in the secondary loops; that is, I have 4 secondary loops

Just making sure.


You two (lawrosa and you) have been a great. My head is spinning though. But it looks like I'm moving in the right direction. Thank you.

 
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Old 01-01-13, 06:27 PM
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You two (lawrosa and you) have been a great. My head is spinning though. But it looks like I'm moving in the right direction. Thank you.
Your doing great man!!!!! Just helping when I feel the need...... Your in good hands with Trooper..... Probably an age thing because I think he is 60 years older then I am....


Make sure you follow through with pics of the final.... Always happy to see happy people and systems running and piped as specified in the manuals




 

Last edited by lawrosa; 01-01-13 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 01-01-13, 06:53 PM
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So, you're suggesting I have two spirovents -- correct. Is it better to eliminate the one on the primary (boiler loop) completely?
What I'm suggesting is that if you don't want to re-do ALL of the piping, you COULD leave the one where it is now. It won't hurt anything. Not that it's 'better' or worse. But you do want an air vent on the PRIMARY LOOP.

OR, you could also re-do that part as well, and move the SpiroVent you have to the upper horizontal part of the piping, along with the tank.

Moving the DHW to the primary loop
The DHW is already on the primary loop.

Primary is the run of the closely spaced tees. Secondary is the bull.
Your SYSTEM loop is your PRIMARY loop.

Your BOILER loop is your SECONDARY loop.

Read this page again:

http://www.comfort-calc.net/primary-..._tutorial.html

In my case..
a] boiler is in the primary loop (also called boiler loop)
b] heating zones are in the secondary loops; that is, I have 4 secondary loops
No. Just the opposite. I'll try to be more consistent in my use of the terms. I call them all kinds of things... maybe we forget the primary and secondary and just go with system and boiler, respectively... but if I forget, you will know what I mean.

Must the expansion tank be placed in a specific spot. Does it make a difference?
The air eliminator and expansion tank must (should anyway) be placed so that all the pumps pump AWAY FROM the tank connection point.

Yes it does make a difference, particularly with air elimination from the system.

Google the term "pumping away" and read anything that comes up written by John Siegenthaler.

Probably an age thing because I think he is 60 years older then I am....
At least old enough to be yo Daddy, maybe even yo GRAND daddy (no, that's probably a stretch)! young whipper-snapper!
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 01-01-13 at 07:06 PM. Reason: my spelling in my quotes.
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Old 01-02-13, 03:57 PM
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lawrosa,

But I would add a AAV at the top of that return ell. Thats the ell thats above where the DHW tee is.

what sort of vent do you recommend at this elbow. I was considering using a Taco High vent:
416-2 - Taco 416-2 - 1/8" SlimLine Hy-Vent

and a 1" x 1/8" 1" brass baseboard tee
CPCBT-160216 - Cello CPCBT-160216 - 1" x 1/8" x 1" CxFxC Baseboard Tee

would that be a good choice?

I don't have the clearance for much more than that.

Or am I better placing the vertical spirovent that trooper recommended -- between that elbow and the DHW tee? (I would replace the original spirovent with a brass tee and keep the pressure tank in the original location -- I don't see where else I can attach it).

Thanks,

lowjoules
 
  #29  
Old 01-02-13, 04:35 PM
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what sort of vent do you recommend at this elbow. I was considering using a Taco High vent:
416-2 - Taco 416-2 - 1/8" SlimLine Hy-Vent

and a 1" x 1/8" 1" brass baseboard tee
CPCBT-160216 - Cello CPCBT-160216 - 1" x 1/8" x 1" CxFxC Baseboard Tee

would that be a good choice?
Yes perfect. Thats all I have at my boiler. I I have one at the highest ell and one at the boiler itself. ( The boiler has a kind of built in air scoop )

Never had an air issue and my boiler is probably close to 40 years old


I personally do not like or use the scrubber type air vents like the spiro vent. IMO. I personally would not spend the $100 bucks for it. Never liked them. Dont install them.

(I would replace the original spirovent with a brass tee and keep the pressure tank in the original location



If it were me I would ditch the spiro vent and put the tee as you say for the tank. I would put the AAV as described on that ell. I would also add another AAV at that ell on the boiler that you have all wrapped up with armaflex. Thats the higher of the two.

Done....

But thats me and I am sure others would disagree.
 
  #30  
Old 01-02-13, 05:52 PM
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I'm out...

I've given my suggestions to take the time to do it right...

Good Luck!
 
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Old 01-03-13, 09:57 AM
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You definitely do get an A for effort and bravery! I couldn't find those long sweep ells anywhere local when I was putting in my water lines. Obviously not as critical on the water side but I'd like to get a box of them for the future. I've also seen installed sweep fittings for going up and over an existing pipe and then back to the same plane but never found them anywhere to buy.
 
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Old 01-03-13, 04:55 PM
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installed sweep fittings for going up and over an existing pipe and then back to the same plane
Don't be surprised if you find out they were made on-site with a tubing bender!
 
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Old 01-03-13, 08:31 PM
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Lawrosa & NJ Trooper,

I’ve considered everything you’ve recommended, measured many times and many more times after that. I am thinking of doing the following....

1. Rather than utilize the existing zone returns, I will continue the return “trunk” 4 inches below the ceiling perpendicular to the wall – from a point where the three existing yellow handled ball valves are presently located (see my original photo). This will allow me a straight run from ceiling to all four zone circulators (no zig zags).
2. 10” of pipe will be placed on suction side of each pump
3. 6” of pipe into run of secondary return and 10” of pipe into run of secondary supply (and I now know that the bulls face the boiler AND I know the boiler loop is the secondary loop on this system )
4. 6” on either side of new vertical Spirovent (I drew it as a triangle)
5. Existing Spirovent and expansion tanks remains where it is presently
6. All flow checks relocated downstream from circulators – 6-10 feet after circulators (can’t fit any closer)
7. Purge boiler cocks and zone isolation valves located upstream from return side of main “trunk” – about 12-24 inches from trunk
8. Using pairs of 45s or 90 sweeps instead of 90 elbows whenever possible (nearly everywhere)
9. The zone circulators in order towards the floor are 2nd, 1st, basement, DHW. (Does the order matter?)

Any last words of advice before I place my order on Monday? I want to do the job Saturday Jan 12[SUP]th[/SUP].

Thanks,

lowjoules
 
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Old 01-03-13, 08:44 PM
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one last idea...

a friend suggested that I combine all three zones and operate them off a single circulator, thinking that this may reduce the cycling.

Not sure if this will help.

Just to refresh your memory. The house is a expanded Cape Cod style with a dormered roof; 1500 square feet; finished basement. Basement has 17 feet of baseboard, 1st floor 43 feet and 2nd floor 38 feet 98 ft in house. I also have the 30 gal low boy DHW. Before kids, my wife and I didn't use the 2nd floor much and I didn't run the heat there. We now use the entire house. I've always used the clocks on the thermostats to keep the temp low in basement and 2nd floor when not in use. The idea is to save on heating bills (ie: lowjoules). The other idea is to fine tune the heat. If we want a floor a bit warmer -- we can adjust the thermostat.

Also recall that I was sold a 110,000/105,000 BTU boiler that can be brought down as low as 50%. Clearly it's oversized.

What do you think of the idea of operating the house as a single zone. Smart to do -- or smart to leave as 3 zones?

Or... let's see what happens after I do the fix and then decide if I want to re-plumb (again)?

Again -- thanks!!!

lowjoules
 
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Old 01-14-13, 07:19 PM
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just reporting in...

did the rebuild over the weekend as per diagram in previous post. Everything seems to be working normal. No sound of a train running through the pipes anymore.

Can't tell yet if the cycling has decreased or not. I'll have to monitor for a few days, at least. It's unusually warm in NJ -- so heat use is minimal.

I'll send photos later this week.

Lawrosa and NJ Trooper... Thanks for all your advice and patience with my questions. I learned a lot. And humbled too.
 
  #36  
Old 01-14-13, 09:16 PM
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It's unusually warm in NJ
Wait till next week! Brrrrrrrrr.... maybe even a few inches of snow on the horizon Mon/Tues?

Can't wait to see the pics! Bring 'em!
 
  #37  
Old 01-18-13, 04:25 PM
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NJ Trooper & Lawrosa,

here are the photos of the rebuilt. I hope I got it right this time. Please tell me what you think.

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Although the system runs quieter now, it still cycles about 100 times a day.

Any suggestions how to improve upon this?

Should I consider not having separate zones and simply use a single circulator to pump into a manifold that feeds all three zones. If so, would I balance the temperature in each zones with balancing valves?

I have the CH setting on the boiler set to 50% and the DHW set to 65%. The DHW seems to cycle a lot, which puzzles me. I would have expected the 30 gal Peerless low boy to absorb the heat fast enough to prevent cycling. Operating at 65% seems to make the boiler UNDERSIZED for this DHW. Am I missing something?

Thanks!!

lowjoules
 
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Old 01-18-13, 04:34 PM
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one more photo of the return manifold...
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  #39  
Old 01-19-13, 08:01 PM
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I think looks much better... what I can see...

Would need to 'refresh' my memory as to what was though... so many boilers, so little time!

Question: Why do two of the pumps appear to have flow check, and two do not?
 
  #40  
Old 01-19-13, 09:20 PM
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Why do two of the pumps appear to have flow check, and two do not?




One check is in the ceiling and the indirect is farther along near the tank....


Although the system runs quieter now, it still cycles about 100 times a day.

Any suggestions how to improve upon this?

Should I consider not having separate zones and simply use a single circulator to pump into a manifold that feeds all three zones. If so, would I balance the temperature in each zones with balancing valves?



Need to re visit this thread..... Will post back.....
 
 

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