Question with water temp problems

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Old 12-27-12, 06:11 PM
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Question with water temp problems

I have a question for you guys. I'm a little confused here. I added a
AL35SL Alliance Hydrastone-Lined Indirect Water Heater to my existing boiler. The existing boilers high and low is 180 and 140 right now. The indirect water tank is set to 125 and 10 degrees off before it turnes on. So I figure when I checked my temp coming out of my faucet it would be 125, its really at 152 when I checked it. I then turned down the iwh to 110 and its about 146 now. Is this norrow or no? Plus I find if I do not use the hot water in the house for a full day or my wife dose a lot of laundry the IWT blows out about a half a cut off water on the floor from the relief valve. And that valve is rated at 200 degrees.

I'm going to take some pictures of my setup and I will post them up later.
 
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Old 12-27-12, 07:13 PM
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Hi Mike, a piping diagram might be helpful also. Even if you can just sketch something and photo it, as long as it's clear enough to see it will help.

Do you have the flow check valves in all the right places?

Perhaps you are getting flow through the indirect during heat calls?

The relief valve on the indirect is temperature AND pressure... and it might be PRESSURE that it's relieving. Your boiler water shouldn't even be 200...
 
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Old 12-29-12, 03:00 PM
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Sorry for the delay.

THis is a little sketch I made today.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]7165[/ATTACH]
I forgot to add the cold water line coming into the IWT. The red is what's new. The valve symbols are just shut off valves and the cp is the circulator pump.

a flow check valve? I have the the normal shut off valves thats its. So no flow check valve nor a mixing valve.

I checked the relief valve and it's specs are 210 degrees and 150psi.

The most psi I see on the boiler gauge is 4 to 5psi when running and will go down to 0 or 1 psi.

The boiler turns off when the gauge reads about 180 and then will still go up to about 190 to 195degrees. that's as far as it will go.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]7166[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]7167[/ATTACH]

I played with the IWT contral more today and it dose not matter what I set the temp to. It seems to always be around 150 degrees the water. I mean, I take a shower and I have the shower handle set on the cold line and its hot!!

I do not know if you remeber but I had my plumber friend install this but he could not do the wiring part. well he did and it was not right, so I figured it out and its working. unless I wired something up wrong. And yes hes done a tone of these installes unless hes doing them all wrong, I have no idea.
 
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Old 12-29-12, 03:28 PM
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This is certainly not right. I can't tell in the picture, but is there a zone valve for the IWH?
 
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Old 12-29-12, 03:38 PM
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Hmm. Ok. So you have two circulators on the system? Was the second one added for the IWH? Does it have a built in flow check? If not, that is probably your problem. You need a way to prevent the other pump from running hot water through the IWH on a regular call for heat. IF not, that will over heat your tank. Also, is the IWH setup for priority?
 
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Old 12-29-12, 05:18 PM
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Yeah, sorry Mike but that's all wrong...

From what I can see in the pics you will DEFINITELY have flow in the WH when there is a heat call.

If you are using a circulator for the indirect it would have had to have been piped BEFORE the circulator for the central heating zones, and there should have been TWO flow check valves to prevent one pump from sucking through the other.

Take a look at figure 7 in this manual... note how both circs are pumping into the return of the boiler. Note the flow check valves and how they will prevent one pump from causing flow in the other circuits.

What you COULD do, even though you may lose some flow, at least temporarily anyway, is to replace the indirect pump with a zone valve and wire it with the others.
 
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Old 12-29-12, 05:23 PM
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I have that same IWH on my system with a zone valve and it works great. I still don't understand the advantage of another pump just for the IWH when it is set to priority.
 
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Old 12-29-12, 05:30 PM
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The most psi I see on the boiler gauge is 4 to 5psi when running and will go down to 0 or 1 psi.
No... that just ain't right either.

Either your gauge is whacked, or you're not reading it right, or you don't have enough pressure.

How about a close-up of that gauge?

Read this (again?):

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html

This is a SEPARATE ISSUE from the water heater relief valve spewing. The pressure in your boiler is in NO WAY related to the the pressure in your domestic water system.


checked the relief valve and it's specs are 210 degrees and 150psi.
The water heater relief valve is the one that opened, correct? Well,

The boiler turns off when the gauge reads about 180 and then will still go up to about 190 to 195degrees. that's as far as it will go.
This is saying that you pretty much can't have 210 in the water heater if the boiler is only going to 195, right?

So, it almost HAS to be be pressure related, yes?

You are on city water? Do you know if there is a check valve on your incoming city water supply, or if your meter has an internal check valve?

If so, what you are going to have to do is to install a POTABLE GRADE expansion tank on your domestic water system.

Please look at this website (watts.com) for more information on why I think you need an expansion tank.

Thermal Expansion - Learn About - Watts

 
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Old 12-29-12, 05:42 PM
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By the way, if you want to verify what I'm telling you about the expansion tank and the water heater relief valve, pick up one of these for about ten bucks:



3/4 in. Plastic Water Pressure Test Gauge-DP IWTG at The Home Depot

It's got a 'lazy hand' on it that will record the highest pressure it sees. Screw it onto any hose bib connection on your DOMESTIC WATER supply ( NOT ON YOUR BOILER DRAINS! ) such as a utility sink, etc... even an outdoor hose bib (but be careful you don't freeze it this time of year!)

Perhaps the best location would be on the water heater DRAIN VALVE.

Open the hose bib, make sure no leaks, and leave it in place for a few days. The 'lazy hand' will tell you the highest pressure it records.
 
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Old 12-29-12, 05:49 PM
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I have that same IWH on my system with a zone valve and it works great. I still don't understand the advantage of another pump just for the IWH when it is set to priority.
There are a few "it depends" going on.

For maximum recovery time of the water heater one needs a good deal of flow. Generally, to guarantee proper flow it is recommended to use at LEAST 1" piping and a pump.

Zone valves are acceptable though, lots of 'em piped that way, but it is STILL recommended to go with 1" piping AND a 1" zone valve.

Sure, they can be done with 3/4", but the flow will suffer, along with the recovery time.

If it's a household with 1-2 people, and no teenagers, then 3/4 would probably be fine. Add a few more people and there may be a cold shower from time to time, even WITH priority setup.
 
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Old 12-29-12, 06:00 PM
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One last thing to mention... I see the domestic pipes coming straight up out of the water heater. Unless your water heater was supplied with 'heat trap nipples' (if it's new it probably was...) you will lose hot water by thermosiphon (gravity) flow in the pipes.

The alternative to heat trap nipples is like this, where the pipes go up, then down again. This prevents the hot water from 'floating' out of the water heater.

 
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Old 12-30-12, 02:38 PM
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Yep I see what you're saying. I sat back and looked at the piping and yes every time one of the zones want heat they get it and so dose the IWT.

Ok I found the instructions for the IWT online. Yes I can run it with a zone valve or a circulator pump. He went with the circulator pump. Now what I see from the instructions, check me if I'm right. When the hot water comes out of the boiler to the 3 zones and then the new 3/4" line I should have a shut off valve the circulator pump and then a check valve and then that gose into the IWT and then come out and into a check valve and a shut off and back to the existing return line to the boilers circulator pump., right? So the circulator pump is installed right now on out flow side of the IWT and no check valves.

If I install the check valves how do they now when to open?

as for the pressure in the boiler, yep right now it just turned off and its readding 5 psi. I thought boilers are so post to be low like that?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]7233[/ATTACH]

I do have town water, with a water metter and check valve and a shut off then a pressure reduser, set to 75psi. and I checked my bathrooms with that tipe of gauge before and it's around 70 to 75 upstairs. The lines are all 1/2" copper lines though. The baseboard is the only thing that is 3/4" plus all the new copper and to do with the IWT.

I know its hard to see in the pictures but I wrapped all the new pipes and all the old once with insulation. The only one that is not wrapped in the picture with the IWT is the cold line.

I still did not wrap the main lines out of the boiler do to I'm looking at a new boiler next year.

And no this plumber is not installing it..
 
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Old 12-30-12, 06:19 PM
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He went with the circulator pump
Who "He" ? this was done by a professional?

check me if I'm right.
Sorry Mike, I didn't follow your thinking, but from what I think I understand, no, that is not correct.

the check valves how do they now when to open?
They are a 'one way door', a 'flapper' on a hinge. It opens when the pump turns on. If flow tries to go the other way it pushes the door shut.

But in your case it is not as easy as just installing a few check valves. If you wanted to continue to use a pump on the water heater, a lot of piping changes need to be made.

If you decide to ditch the pump, you can install a zone valve in it's place and wire it as if it were just another zone with no other changes to the piping. You would not need the check valves if you did this... but DO UNDERSTAND that it would not be an 'ideal' installation... it would work OK, but you might not have a fast recovery time that it might otherwise be capable of.
 
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Old 12-30-12, 06:23 PM
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right now it just turned off and its readding 5 psi. I thought boilers are so post to be low like that?
No, not THAT low. The MINIMUM pressure when the boiler is COLD is supposed to be 12 PSI.

Is your home a single level? It must be, because if you had a two story I doubt you would have heat on the 2nd floor.

I checked my bathrooms with that tipe of gauge before and it's around 70 to 75 upstairs
Was this check done BEFORE the water heater was installed?

If so, do the test I said. Leave the gauge on for a couple days and read the lazy hand to see what the maximum pressure it recorded. I won't guarantee it, or bet any beers, but I'm pretty confident that you will record 150 PSI on that gauge.
 
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Old 12-31-12, 10:57 AM
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Yes my plumber friend thats beening working for 46 years. He still owrks on the nulce when they need fixing.
He said to me he has not done one of these in some time so I do not know. I can do about anything once I set y mind to it, but I do not have any of the plumbing tools to do the job so I had him do it.

Ok can you show me a sketch what it should look like and the parts I need? Or a picture of a IWT connected the right way with a cp.

I want to use the cp for that reason I want it to be 100% and right not this half a** s***.

OK on that check valve, now I see why just by adding one it will not work at all on my setup right now.

I just tried something to see what it would do. This is what I did. I tuned off all 3 zones. Made shore the IWT contral was at 110 degrees and took a shower and so did my wife. It turned on about half way through my wifes shower and ran for about 5 mins and turned on the boiler at the end. Once the IWT stopped calling for heat, I then turned on the kitchen sink water on full hot and it read 132 degrees. So I know the plumbing is wrong but shouldn't of the IWT contral turned off when it hit 110?

On my other problem when the boiler fired fgor the IWT it was at 0 psi and stade at that the whole time until it turned off then went up to 5 psi. I could hear this hissing sound coming from the boiler, I figure thats just normal hot water steaming in side. and no there was so steam or anything come out of the boiler.

I checked before the IWT was instilled. I have a 4 way slit. The boiler is in the basement, zone 3 is 5 steps up to the family room and 8 steps to the kitchen and living and dinning rooms and then 5 steps up to the bedrooms. I know up stairs in the bedrooms the heat fires a lot more and I can always hear water moving through the baseboad like the lines not flowing full and its like a dripping sound all the time. and the baseboard in the bedrooms dose not get burning hot like on zone 3 or zone 1 in the kitchen. it's just a little warm.

On a side know I still have a contracted with my oil company from b** last year and I told them of this problems and the boiler psi gauge reading that low and the guy said everything looks fine. So I thought it was fine to read that low.

I did replace both bleeder valves in the boiler this summer so there should be no air in the basebord.
 
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Old 12-31-12, 04:08 PM
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He still owrks on the nulce
What the heck is a "nulce" ?'

Ok can you show me a sketch what it should look like and the parts I need? Or a picture of a IWT connected the right way with a cp.
I thought I linked to an installation manual in an earlier post but see now that I forgot to add the link.

Did your water heater come with an installation manual? Did anyone think to read it before installing the water heater?

In your guy's defense though, I have to say that this manual 5uck5!

http://s3.pexsupply.com/product_file...SL-Install.pdf

IMO, the diagram Figure 2, page 12 is just plain WRONG.

Bradford White diagram is better I think:

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/...-43480-00F.pdf

Google around and you will learn...

I have a 4 way slit.
Too much information... sounds painful...

But seriously, what does that mean? Did you mean to type SPLIT ? as in SPLIT LEVEL? You need to use that spell checker!

could hear this hissing sound coming from the boiler, I figure thats just normal hot water steaming in side... I can always hear water moving through the baseboad like the lines not flowing full and its like a dripping sound all the time. and the baseboard in the bedrooms dose not get burning hot like on zone 3 or zone 1 in the kitchen. it's just a little warm.
Everything you said is proof that the boiler pressure is WAY TOO LOW.

the guy said everything looks fine. So I thought it was fine to read that low.
No, the 'guy' is F.O.S. It's NOT fine.
 
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Old 01-01-13, 09:56 AM
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sorry I posted with my phone on the last post and my dam phone changes the words all the time and I did not reaed it over.

I said he works on reactors doing the plumbing on them.


I did not have the book but I did down load it and checked it out but the Bradford is easyer for me to understand. thanks. I will.

yes a split level dam phone.

Yep. ok thnaks.

I just went to see my parents boiler. It's only ten years old and its a
Weil Mclain and it's force air but there's was at 12 psi and went to 15psi when the boiler went on.

Guess I'm calling the boss again and flipping out on him. Last time I got a free contracted because I told him his guys did not fix my boiler or say I had a problems and my releief valve was done. and three months ago my controller failed and my boiler went up to 250 degrees and it was like a dam tea pot!!!! I was home and I smelled something burning and I ran down there and saw it and turned off the switch. talk about s*** you're pants.

And the pressure problem was before this happened so it's not damage from this even though the boiler info says the boiler should see 240 degrees max.
 
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Old 01-01-13, 12:48 PM
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I said he works on reactors doing the plumbing on them.
Oh my... I hope he reads the directions when he does THAT!
 
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Old 01-16-13, 06:23 AM
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Well I figured I would update this thread.

Fixed the boiler pressure problem. it was a bad expansion tank and pressure valve above the tank. both where full of sand.

I guess My town water s****. So I addded a whole house filter with a 50 micron filter.

So know the boilers at 15psi cold and about 19 to 20psi running. Main it's so much nicer up stairs now!!

As for the IWT, I looked around and talked to burnham about it. They said to try this and I did.

It's setup the same but it comes up from the boiler and I put the pump on the inlet line to the IWT. It dose have a built in check. I then added another check to the outlet side right next to the IWT. It's half working . Its not blowing out on the floor anymore so I know that means it's not getting that hot anymore but it's still getting some hot water in the tank when one of the zones call for heat. I turned the IWT up to 125 and the most I have seen the water read out of the sink is 160. So a lot better. So because my existing cp is the lowest part of the boiler system its sucking open both check valves! The guy from Burnham told me to move the existhing cp to the outlet side of the boiler on top and I would not have a problem anymore or on the outlet side of the IWT, pipe it to the floor and connect it after the cp just before the boiler.

I'm not going to wast more money and time to try this because its getting crazy now. And I'm looking at installing a new boiler some time this year and I was going to set it up by using cp for each zone so they all will be at the same elevation so I figure I would have no more problems once I do this.
 
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Old 01-16-13, 04:02 PM
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both where full of sand.
SAY WHAT?

This is CITY WATER?

I think you've got a main leak somewhere... howinhell else is SAND going to pass through the city system? You should get in touch with someone at your local water authority and tell them about it... push until you get answers... that is NOT acceptable... it means that the cleanliness of your water supply is STRONGLY suspect!

The only CORRECT fix for your system is to pipe it properly. You can throw all the check valves you want at it and it will not work 100%.
 
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Old 01-17-13, 12:19 PM
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Yep, poughkeepsie water s...!!!! It comes from the the hudson river
It's not just sand, there lots of black flakes in the water too. I figure thats the
old pipes in the street coming apart.

I put in a 5 stage reverse osmosis system in the kitchen, It works great. The waters cheap though three months in the summer watering my lawn and stuff every night for a month it was a crazy $34.

Yep i know, I'll wait for the new boiler.
 
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Old 01-17-13, 02:28 PM
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I would still b1tc4 at them about the sand... who knows WHAT you are drinking! I can almost guarantee that there is no sand coming out of the pumping station, so it must be getting into the system somewhere in between, right?

You could always throw the zone valve we talked about in place of the pump...
 
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Old 01-22-13, 07:04 AM
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I will.

Well even if I did the zoe valve wouldn't the cp on the boil still open the check valve and take the heat from the iwt then? With these cold temps. It's blowing out again every couple of hours and the waters reading 190 in the kitchen.
 
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Old 01-22-13, 09:27 AM
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If you replace the indirect pump ... pull it right outta there... and install a zone valve in it's place, the water heater will simply appear as another zone to be heated...

Yes, there may be a little longer recovery, but you may not even notice.
 
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Old 03-13-13, 08:09 AM
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Ok I'm back trooper. I did nothing to the system since last time we talked. The heat has not been running much this past week and the tank still blowing out twice a day now. I have new info I have found, making me think somethings up with the tank, but I'm not shore. The tank is set to 125 right now and I got home and checked the water temp in my kitchen yesterday and it was right at 116. I let it run and the tank went on and the temp was up to 128 when it turned off. So thats fine and working right. But it still blowing out. Now I was down there watching it when it happened. It's not like a blow out. It just comes slowing out of the tank into the pan I set on the floor there, and the water first starts to come out cold them get slightly warm. It happens after the tank has been running for a couple of min. it start to leak water for about 2 min. and then stop. When it dose this the tank is still calling for heat and it's still running. So I have no idea why it's dumping water out of the tank every time it runs. The tanks not at 150psi and it's not at 210 degress. Could this be a sign of a bad tank? But if the tank was had I do not think it would be doing this at all. Even if I put a zone valve in it would do the same thing I would think. What else could it be?

The boiler is still reading 20 psi and the town water is still at 65 to 70 psi.
 

Last edited by mikecsti; 03-13-13 at 10:34 AM.
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