Outdoor Reset, Water Temps and Oil Use

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Old 01-02-13, 08:07 PM
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Outdoor Reset, Water Temps and Oil Use

So I have a Beckitt Aquasmart with outdoor reset on a oil boiler. You can see the table below that at some points it takes almost an hour to heat up the house a few degrees. I am not sure if this is a good thing and seems to be running for far too long? The house was built two years ago and recently was inspected to have good insulation.

Do you think it is the water temp and the ODR curve? I have a high point of 60 degrees, a low of 0 and a boost of 10F. The high temp is set to 180, while the low is turned off (cold start). The ODR setting is like 165 given the 29 degree temp outside. BTW, the boiler is 110k BTU and the zone is the first floor, about 1200 sqft

Any thoughts? Should I turn off the ODR? or increase the low curve to like 10F to make the water hotter?



[TABLE="width: 703"]
[TR]
[TD]Date
[/TD]
[TD]Time
[/TD]
[TD]System Mode
[/TD]
[TD]Heat Set Temp (F)
[/TD]
[TD]Current Temp (F)
[/TD]
[TD]Outdoor Temp (F)
[/TD]
[TD]Wind Speed (km/h)
[/TD]
[TD]Heat Stage 1 (sec)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16:30:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]65.6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16:35:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]66
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16:40:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]66.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16:45:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]67.1
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16:50:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]67.7
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]120
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16:55:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatOff
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]67.7
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17:00:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatOff
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]66.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]75
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17:05:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]65.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17:10:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]65.8
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17:15:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]66.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17:20:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]66.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17:25:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]66.6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17:30:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]66.6
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17:35:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]66.7
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17:40:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]66.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17:45:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]67.1
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17:50:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]67.3
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]300
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]17:55:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatStage1On
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]67.5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]150
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]1/2/2013
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]18:00:00
[/TD]
[TD]heatOff
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.9
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]5
[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 

Last edited by gsimmons2005; 01-02-13 at 08:30 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-03-13, 06:06 AM
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This is a normal situation when using ODR or radiant heat. You'll be more comfortable and still save money if you just leave the t'stat alone.
 
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Old 01-03-13, 06:52 AM
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If you have radiant heat then the temp of the system should be anywhere from like 90f-140f max. If your current temps are in the 60f range and its 29f out I would say something is wrong.

Are you sure this is not Celsius you are reading?

There should be some type of mixing valve if you have radient heat. Can you be more specific?

Here is the manual for reference.

http://www.beckettcorp.com/protect2/...martmanual.pdf


I dont see that this control has an ODR. Do you have some other controls that you did not post?
 
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Old 01-03-13, 07:24 AM
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I have a high point of 60 degrees
Shouldn't that setting equal the indoor temp? You are talking about the high end of the ODR curve?

This is the recovery after a steep night time setback period? How much setback?

Have you tracked the boiler temps? Boost is working properly?

What make/model boiler, what type of heat emitters?

Is the installed amount of heat emitter appropriate for the heat loss of the home?
 
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Old 01-03-13, 12:35 PM
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Thanks everyone,

I should have mentioned I have heated coil forced air system on a peerles BV4 direct vent oil boiler, not radiant. The ODR is a new wireless reset Beckitt just started making. The high limit is set to 180 on the boiler, low limit is off. The low outdoor temp for the ODR curve is set to 0, while the high temp is set to 60 - there is no indoor reset, so the boiler bases its temperature on the outdoor temperature or higher if the boost is in effect. That temp is then used to heat th house per the tstat call for temp (in this case a call of 68). The boiler is also used for an indirect tank (on priority on the beckitt), hence the higher set point.

The boost seems to be working OK when I watch the aquastat temps as it even goes up to 190 at times. On average when it is 29f, the water temp is 165 or so. I attached the heating curve and such from my ecobee tstat, dotted red is setpoint, green is actual temp, black is outside temp, while the pink bars repersent boiler on time (5 min cycles)

This recovery to 68 is from a night setting of 60.

Questions:

It just seems excessive for the boiler to run almost 45 minutes to heat the house from 60 to 68, but perhaps I am just too new to home heating! The previous owner had a tankless coil, so I have no idea how his worked.

Perhaps the door to the basement is drawing the hot air down to the cold basement or the fact the upstairs/downstairs (2 sep zones) are usually set 6-8 degrees different may be causing heating drafts.
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Old 01-03-13, 05:17 PM
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Very cool! I just love me a good graph! That one is awesome, wish I could afford me a Beehive!

I wonder if that software has the ability to compare run times of the boiler on a setback versus non-setback scenario? It would be interesting to learn if without the setback periods the run times during recovery periods would just 'spread out' and more or less equal each other.

Is your setback being done as an attempt to economize? or simply for comfort while sleeping?

The low outdoor temp for the ODR curve is set to 0, while the high temp is set to 60
Again, shouldn't the 60 be the same as the desired room temp? i.e. 68 ?

increase the low curve to like 10F to make the water hotter?
You could at the expense of shooting yourself in the foot.

Besides, isn't that what the boost function is supposed to achieve?

a boost of 10F
Isn't the BOOST a TIME setting? On my system the boost TEMP is FIXED at 10, but the TIME before entering boost is adjustable.

So, if you find that the boost TIME is adjustable, try shortening that a bit and see how that goes.

I personally don't think that 45 minutes to go from 60 to 68 is terribly excessive. I doubt if my new MPO could do it...

Was the "UP DOWN UP" setpoint change at 8AM on 1/1 a manual change or do you have it programmed thus?
 
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Old 01-03-13, 05:54 PM
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The set is done to economize mainly, all I hear is lower the tstat, save energy. 68 is too hot to sleep as well, but we could put it at 64 instead of 62 if needed.

Doesnt it save money to have lower temps? I also may try to introduce a step from 62 to 68, say at 65 to ease the system into it and have it loose some temp (I have a 1.5 differntial) so it doesnt turn on soo long.

Boost is 10F for each 10 minutes of constant call, up to the high limit

Dont know on the software calculations, but you could easily run one scenario, export data to excel, run the other and export and compare total run times.

The up down up on 1/1 was manual since we were home...
 
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Old 01-03-13, 06:16 PM
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all I hear is lower the tstat, save energy. 68 is too hot to sleep as well, but we could put it at 64 instead of 62 if needed.
Ultimately, your boiler must replace the heat loss from the house over a year, or any other period of time. Heat loss increases with the indoor setpoint temperature. Any time you can turn down the thermostat, and stay comfortable, do it. ODR resest can increase boiler efficiency, but won't reduce the heat required.
 
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Old 01-03-13, 10:05 PM
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Doesnt it save money to have lower temps?
Sure... but there's always that 'tipping point' of diminishing returns.

I know everything you've ever read says to setback the t'stat steeply and you will save tons of cash.

My belief is that it can be over done... you reach a point where the savings is overcome by having to heat the building and everything it it back up again.

You have what we call a 'Hydro Air' system. Air handlers that blow across coils with hot water flowing in them.

Hot air systems seem to recover more quickly than hot water systems, and this means that you may be able to set back a little bit more before reaching that tipping point.

I don't think that 8 hrs sleep time or 8 hrs away at work time is enough to warrant such a steep setback though.

Experiment a bit and see what you think, you've got the equipment and computer skills to do so... why not? I dare you to prove the DOE (or me!) wrong! I would like to see your data if you do.

Boost is 10F for each 10 minutes of constant call
Is the 10 minutes adjustable? Try shortening it to 8 minutes and see what happens.

Any time you can turn down the thermostat, and stay comfortable
It is after all about COMFORT. If we didn't want to be comfortable we would never have discovered fire!

You have to decide where to draw the line between economy (if a steep setback IS IN FACT economical) and comfort and what you are willing to pay for that comfort.

The ultimate amount of savings is about TIME when setting back a t'stat. Go on vacation for a week and not have to recover the building temperature 2 times a day for a week or two and you will save a lot. Steep set back for eight hours then up to 68 for one, then back again, then up again... I dunno, just can't quite see the savings there... and the 2-3 years of data I took while experimenting here showed that I wasn't saving enough to even notice the difference.

Your mileage may vary, track it and see!
 
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