Outdoor Temp Sensor

Reply

  #1  
Old 01-07-13, 04:41 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Outdoor Temp Sensor

I have a Dunkirk DKVLT-200 condensing gas boiler. I have noticed that the installer did not install the outdoor temperature sensor. What advantage would this sensor give me? I dont think I can go back on the installer at this point, is it worth it for me to pursue getting the sensor and installing it on the boiler.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 01-07-13, 04:46 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,752
Received 3 Votes on 3 Posts
Yes it will be beneficial since it lowers the boiler temp based on the temp outside.

Ex: 0 f outside = 180f boiler water. 50 f outside =130 f water. The means fuel savings.

I will try to find the manual online.

When was it installed? It should have came with the boiler and I would call them back. Why should you foot the bill?
 
  #3  
Old 01-07-13, 05:42 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I would rather not go too dep into it but I will say this was a Sears purchase and I had some issues! The thermostat did come with it, I saw it, but the installer claims it didnt come with it and it is not necessary. I really dont think he was very familiar with this newer type technology.
 
  #4  
Old 01-07-13, 06:25 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,752
Received 3 Votes on 3 Posts
Do you still have it?

------------------------------
 
  #5  
Old 01-07-13, 06:31 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
had some issues!
Ummmm... yeah...

Unless your home is around 8000 square feet, that 200K BTUH boiler which was installed is at LEAST FOUR TIMES TOO BIG.

But perhaps you live in a McMansion?
 
  #6  
Old 01-07-13, 06:41 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
This appears to be the sensor you will need:

Sensor, Outdoor 240008225

I'm almost afraid to ask for pics of the installation... but if you could, I would be interested.
 
  #7  
Old 01-07-13, 06:46 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,752
Received 3 Votes on 3 Posts
Here is the parts list.

http://www.dunkirk.com/uploads/produ...1b6837c373.pdf

Part # for ODR

240008225

You better take pics of the unit..... You may have other issues to worry about. Possibly they piped it incorrectly.
 
  #8  
Old 01-07-13, 07:21 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks! I will get some pics when I get a chance but I do believe it was piped properly. It was inspected by 2 different state inspectors, which I dont think were very knowledgable of the system either, but they were extremely detailed in the inspection process, checking everything (in GREAT detail) against the installation manual. They also spent well over on hour on the phone with the manufacturer checking every detail. It took 3 inspections before they finally approved it, I'm glad it wasn't winter time!!!!!
 
  #9  
Old 01-07-13, 07:28 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I do have the unit and it seems to be working well. Although it seems oversized I dont think it is by much. The home is a 3000 square foot, 2-story, farm house that was built in 1900. My family has owned the home for 50 years and my aunt and uncle lost it to the bank. During the forclosure process the urban miners gutted the place so it was an entire new install. The only thing they didnt take was the old boiler and the sizing of this system is very similar to the one that was here.
 
  #10  
Old 01-07-13, 07:32 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,752
Received 3 Votes on 3 Posts
They were most likely just checking saftey controls, electrical etc.... But I was concerned with the close spaced tees. But I see on page 8 and the piping digrams they are built in.


http://www.dunkirk.com/uploads/produ...1746cde0e6.pdf

That is a very large boiler. Is it a large home? With out the ODR its running full throttle all the time. 200,000 btu!!!!

Lets put it this way. That boiler will be able to heat 6.5 homes in my neighborhood. 6000 sq ft.
 
  #11  
Old 01-07-13, 07:37 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
the sizing of this system is very similar to the one that was here.
Well... that right there is a mistake. I would venture to say that historically, 90% of the installed boilers were at LEAST twice as large as needed. To size a new boiler by the size of an old boiler is a classic mistake by an installer that just doesn't know any better.

Let's use a 'ballpark' figure for the heat loss of the home.

If we say 40 BTU per square foot, which is a VERY high number for heat loss, you are looking at 120K BTUH... yes, any way you look at it, 200K is oversized. Sad truth...

Let's really go out on a limb and say FIFTY BTU per sq ft... still only 150K... and to have a heat loss of 50 BTU/SQFT you would need to have a few windows missing.

I'm not kidding when I say that I could heat my home and 3 of my nearest neighbors homes with a 200K BTUH boiler.

They also spent well over on hour on the phone with the manufacturer checking every detail. It took 3 inspections before they finally approved it
That's good to hear I guess!
 
  #12  
Old 01-07-13, 07:38 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,752
Received 3 Votes on 3 Posts
Read thiis.

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...nt-boiler.html

Best to get that ODR installed. See page 38 in the link I posted. That boiler fires as low as 40k btu so you may not be to bad and save some fuel, But it will not fire low and run lower temps without the ODR.

http://www.dunkirk.com/uploads/produ...1746cde0e6.pdf

What type of heat emmitters?
 
  #13  
Old 01-07-13, 07:39 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Damn Mike, we are on the same wavelength tonight, ain't we? Ahhh yes, great minds...

That boiler fires as low as 40k btu
Just imagine how much more fuel could be saved though if it were 'right sized' and could fire down to 15K !

I see on page 8 and the piping digrams they are built in
Yeah, as long as the valve between them inside the boiler is OPEN!
 
  #14  
Old 01-07-13, 08:21 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
This is exactly the reason I asked the question. I thought the purpose for the sensor was to allow it to run at lower BTU but I wasnt positive. This should be a significant cost saving factor.

I understand everyone has thier thoughts but I can only go with the recommedations that I had at the time. As this was a complete install, at one point I was undecided between the boiler and forced air. I had an engineer do the calculations for both systems and they came up with a slightly lower number but not by much.

Please don't take me wrong here, I appreciate your knowledgable input and discussion but the decision was made, the system is installed and I cant afford and/or want to replace it.

Larosa....... Not exactly sure what you mean by heat emitters but I can take a good guess. We installed baseboard through the house, there are no radiators.

I will try to get pictured tomorrow
 
  #15  
Old 01-08-13, 08:34 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Please don't take me wrong here, I appreciate your knowledgable input and discussion but the decision was made, the system is installed and I cant afford and/or want to replace it.
Of course, we understand. We would be remiss though if we did not bring up the issue for the benefit of future readers. Don't forget that these forums come up in search engines all the time.

If we can save someone from making the same mistake as you did then our job is done.

I had an engineer do the calculations for both systems and they came up with a slightly lower number but not by much.
I hope he didn't charge you for his bad advice. If he did, I hope you at least got a nice dinner abd drinks out of him.
 
  #16  
Old 01-08-13, 04:47 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Well if I did it right, here are some pictures of the system. I will order the thermostat and get it installed properly. At this point I will have about 2 months of utility bills to make a comparison. I very much appreciate the help and will probably need a little more before this is over.
 
Attached Images      
  #17  
Old 01-08-13, 05:00 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Gauge is outta focus... is that really reading 30 PSI?

Why is the tank installed sideways like that and to what is it connected?

Where is that condensate drain going?

Are you aware that the condensate is acidic and will rot out metal drain pipes if not treated through a neutralizer first?

Hmmm... no isolation valve for pump service. Gotta drain the system to change the pump... don't like that.

Ooops! the backflow preventer is on the wrong side of the pressure reducing valve... love the blue pex jumprope!
 
  #18  
Old 01-08-13, 07:31 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Gauge is outta focus... is that really reading 30 PSI?
It reads just under 30 PSI...... Is this not correct?

Why is the tank installed sideways like that and to what is it connected?
The tank and air vent are connected between boiler and pressure refeif valve. This installation was approved by the manufacturer.

Where is that condensate drain going?
Are you aware that the condensate is acidic and will rot out metal drain pipes if not treated through a neutralizer first?
Condensate goes to a sump hole used to drain overflow surface water. Yes I am aware.

love the blue pex jumprope
Will be behind an enclosure when I am done.
 
  #19  
Old 01-08-13, 08:03 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
It reads just under 30 PSI...... Is this not correct?
No, absolutely not.

You should have a "Pressure Relief Valve" on your system somewhere (perhaps inside the boiler?) and this valve will be rated at 30 PSI. One should never allow system pressure to approach 10% under the rating of the relief valve... 27 PSI.

NORMAL, STANDARD pressure on a COLD BOILER in up to a 2 story home should be 12-15 PSI.

When the system is HOT, at HIGH LIMIT (180F) the pressure should be no more than 10 PSI higher, or say 22-25 PSI.

With your system pressure that high, you will soon be complaining of your pressure relief valve spewing all over the place. By the way, what are those two small puddles on the floor below the boiler?
 
  #20  
Old 01-08-13, 08:06 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
The tank and air vent are connected between boiler and pressure refeif valve. This installation was approved by the manufacturer.
Oh my... OK, well... I guess if the manufacturer says it's OK, then who am I to argue that fact? Hmmm, I wonder what the manufacturer of the TANK would have to say about that?
 
  #21  
Old 01-08-13, 08:08 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Ooops! the backflow preventer is on the wrong side of the pressure reducing valve...
Don't ya just love when the "state inspectors" miss poo like this?

Kinda makes ya wonder what else they missed, don't it?
 
  #22  
Old 01-09-13, 04:30 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Don't ya just love when the "state inspectors" miss poo like this?

Kinda makes ya wonder what else they missed, don't it?
Where is the backflow preventer?
 

Last edited by ddiment2; 01-09-13 at 05:47 PM.
  #23  
Old 01-09-13, 04:43 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Oh my... OK, well... I guess if the manufacturer says it's OK, then who am I to argue that fact? Hmmm, I wonder what the manufacturer of the TANK would have to say about that?
oh, Hmmm....... the manufacturer of the tank would say that it is acceptable. Here is the link Flexcon Industries - Frequesntly Asked Questions
 

Last edited by ddiment2; 01-09-13 at 05:49 PM.
  #24  
Old 01-09-13, 04:59 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
If I get down and look closely at the guage, it is probably 26 or 27 PSI. Is there a way to turn it down. I can not find anything in any of the manuals that addresses how to control this.

Those are not puddles on the floor. They are stains that have been there from the installation. I have no idea what caused them but they are not wet at all.
 
  #25  
Old 01-09-13, 06:56 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Where is the backflow preventer?
Blue pex jumprope connects to GREEN pressure reducing valve, next in line is the Watts 9D backflow preventer. The postion of those two should be reversed. Backflow preventer belongs UPSTREAM of the pressure reducing valve.
 
  #26  
Old 01-09-13, 07:04 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
the manufacturer of the tank would say that it is acceptable.
Don't know if you noticed but every question in that FAQ was related to potable well system pressure tanks. I guess you could make the stretch if you choose to.

I myself would prefer to go with the recommendations set forth in the install instructions for your particular tank.

http://www.flexconind.com/pdf/FLEX2P...stallation.pdf

All expansion tanks fail in time and when they do they fill with water and get HEAVY!

It's hard to see in the pics, but is there at least a strap to the joists supporting that tank?
 
  #27  
Old 01-09-13, 07:10 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
Is there a way to turn it down.
Yes, of course. Turn off the water supply valve to the boiler and open one of the boiler drains until it is down into the range desired, i.e. 12-15 PSI when cold.

If when you turn the water supply valve back on the pressure slowly increases back to where it was or higher, it means that your pressure reducing valve is either defective (leaking through) or the pressure setting of the valve has been 'monkeyed' with.

Yes, even brand new pressure reducing valves crap out... usually due to a piece of 'crud' (dirt, copper flake, solder flake, pex plastic flake, minnow, etc) in the water line getting underneath the valve seat and causing it to leak through. That valve is supposed to drop your city (or private well) pressure down to 12-15 PSI. If it leaks, the pressure will go too high in the system.
 
  #28  
Old 01-09-13, 07:30 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
It's hard to see in the pics, but is there at least a strap to the joists supporting that tank?
It is very well supported
 
  #29  
Old 01-09-13, 07:35 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Blue pex jumprope connects to GREEN pressure reducing valve, next in line is the Watts 9D backflow preventer. The postion of those two should be reversed. Backflow preventer belongs UPSTREAM of the pressure reducing valve.
Per the installation sheet I have that is a pressure relief valve and is installed in the proper position.
 
  #30  
Old 01-09-13, 08:09 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
No, it is NOT a pressure RELIEF valve, it is a pressure REDUCING valve... and no, it is NOT in the correct position... not gonna argue with ya though, you believe what and who you want to believe.

At least tell me WHAT installation sheet you have... so I can see what you see...
 
  #31  
Old 01-10-13, 02:56 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I'm done here! I have the paperwork, the installation is correct, as most of the other "problems" are. I asked a simple question, for a little help, and you, my friend, were the typical contractor thast had to find fault in EVERYTHING that another contractor did, whether your are right or not! Have a good day!!!!

Lawrosa....... Thank you for yuour help!!!!!!!!!
 
  #32  
Old 01-10-13, 05:41 AM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,752
Received 3 Votes on 3 Posts
Lawrosa....... Thank you for your help!!!!!!!!!
No problem... I know you may be frustrated, but as Trooper was just trying to point out there are certain preferred ways to install boiler controls and such.

I will just post what I see. ( and in Troopers defense you two just are mis communicating I think)

Here is the fill valve and backflow PDF. Clearly it shows from the manufacturer the back flow goes first. See the arrow on body that shows direction.

http://media.wattswater.com/ES-911.pdf

Will it work? Sure. Is it right? No. Inspector should of caught it.



Now I see the relief valve on top of the boiler. Good its piped to the floor. OK..

The typical exp installation in normally vertical. That is the perferred method of installation per manufactures instructions. Will yours work on the horizontal? Sure, just life expectancy may be reduced.

Also I assume they branched off the supply with a tee, then the exp tank, then the air vent shown.. Is it ideal? No... Will it work? probably...it has been right?

Name:  photo4.jpg
Views: 1134
Size:  40.7 KB


I would get that out door reset installed, and get that boiler psi lowered. As trooper stated the fill valve may be faulty or the exp tank needs additional air added and has lost some of its charge. You will find out if you do not correct that soon the relief valve will trip over 30psi.

We are all just volunteers here and just trying to help you stay safe...
 
  #33  
Old 01-10-13, 08:14 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Upvotes: 0
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
I'm done here! I have the paperwork, the installation is correct, as most of the other "problems" are. I asked a simple question, for a little help, and you, my friend, were the typical contractor thast had to find fault in EVERYTHING that another contractor did, whether your are right or not! Have a good day!!!!
What can I say... ya try to help a guy out and this is the attitude ya get... shameful...

Yes, I do find fault when there is fault to be found. I WILL point it out. There are right ways and there are wrong ways, and there were a number of wrong ways taken with your system... it all started with installing a boiler that is at LEAST three times large than need be... that was the first red flag that went up and you defended them and their choice... I should have known then that it would come to this and given up on you then... but no, I bit my tongue and continued to try and help.

I'm sorry you got a bad deal, good luck with it. I'm done too, have a nice life.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes