Boiler ES 2 Flue issues.

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  #1  
Old 01-29-13, 08:29 AM
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Boiler ES 2 Flue issues.

OK the guy I am installing boilers for is really out of his mind.... I just grit my teeth and bare it. I install what he wants ect...

He does not listen to me and installed the same BTU units that are remove. I need the money and just install with what he supplys....

With that said He wants me to install a Burnham ES2 tomorrow... ( Yes he tells me last minute) Here is the I/O manual for reference.

http://www.usboiler.net/products/boi...2_IOManual.pdf


There was a 100k there and he is installing a es2-4 which is a 105k 3 zones, separate HWH. 1800 sq ft house.


OK so why is he installing this unit and not getting the odr? Its just a normal boiler then right? I mean compared to say a series 2 boiler. This one is 85% and the series 2 is 84.5 %. Possibly he is doing it for the rebate? I have to look into that.

Anyway he is hooking this into the existing masonary clay tile lined chimney. Its says in the manual page #9

"Clay flue
lined masonry chimneys do not meet the
venting requirements for this appliance.
"

With that said this boiler can except temps as low as 110f. So I figure what a waste of money for this boiler if not used as designed...

What I am thinking is I will install it in the masonary chimney and just make sure it runs at 180F and not alter any controls. If the inspector has an issue I will just bring up this fact.

What you all think?


Note: I told him to install a Burnham serie 2 @ 50k btu for this 2000 sq ft house would be better but he refuses to listen. Even the slant fin s 60 was suggested (60k) Cant get it through his head. Dont know what his thinking is.

If the inspector is not an idiot it should fail inspection. But may not catch it. But what are the implications if I do this and do not line the chimney.? Any CO safety concern here?
 
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Old 01-29-13, 09:02 AM
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Not sure what I would do... ya need the work, and I'm sure he can find someone that don't give a damn to do the installs for him... plenty of hungry guys out there.

I can tell you that if you vent that thing into a big old masonry chimney that it is going to rain condensate inside the chimney. Not sure if this is Burnham's only reason for saying 'unsuitable', but it certainly is one of the reasons.
 
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Old 01-29-13, 09:08 AM
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From what I see the only difference between the es2 and say a series 2 is the eff. 85% vs 84.* %

That dictates a $300 rebate from NJ.... Big deal. The boiler is $500 buck more in price.

The other difference is the fact that the es2 accepts an ODR control.

Both boilers though require the min 140f aquastat setting. The ODR will not reduce this lower will it?

Even though no ODR is being installed its the fact that it can be installed on the es2.....

I cant find the PDF for the IQ control.....
 
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Old 01-29-13, 09:18 AM
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I wouldn't be too concerned with the different boilers and the IQ vs non-IQ...

The venting issue would be my main concern.
 
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Old 01-29-13, 09:22 AM
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Yes troop but there is a reason why it states that? I see know reason other then ODR option? Could you elaborate on what you think?

I found the ODR doc. Am reading it now.

http://s3.pexsupply.com/manuals/1288..._PROD_FILE.pdf
 
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Old 01-29-13, 10:15 AM
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I don't see where that venting requirement has anything to do with the ODR ?

It's all about NFPA and local codes... the full item #1:

1. This appliance shall be vented into a listed gas vent, masonry**, metal, or factorybuilt
chimney as required by NFPA 54 and applicable local codes for Category I appliances.

**If venting this appliance into a masonry chimney, the chimney must be lined with a listed chimney lining system (i.e. Type B gas vent or flexible metal) as required by NFPA 54 and applicable local codes. Clay flue lined masonry chimneys do not meet the venting requirements for this appliance.
I think that all this is saying is that NFPA 54 does not recognize CLAY FLUE lined chimneys as acceptable for Cat I appliances... least that's how I read it?
 
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Old 01-29-13, 10:44 AM
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Cat 1 appliance? I have to look at the code. I am pulling it up now. Is not a regular series 2 boiler a cat 1?
 
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Old 01-29-13, 11:05 AM
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I would imagine that it is...

Are you saying that there's a difference in the venting requirements between the two? I only looked at the ES2 manual you linked to.
 
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Old 01-29-13, 11:11 AM
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Page 15 here for the series 2 atmospheric draft 84.* eff....

http://www.usboiler.net/products/boi...ts/Series2.pdf


3. V ent installation shall be in accordance with local
building codes; or the local authority having
jurisdiction; or the National Fuel Gas Code, ANSI
Z223.1/NFPA 54; or the Standard for Chimneys,
Fireplaces, Vents, and Solid Fuel Burning
Appliances, ANSI/NFPA 211. Both of the
aforementioned standards, ANSI Z223.1 and ANSI/
NFPA 211,
specify Type B and Type L double wall
metal vents and fire clay tile lined masonry
chimneys as suitable chimney constructions for
Category I, draft hood equipped appliances, such as
this Series 2 boiler.
Both standards prohibit the use
of unlined masonry construction as a chimney, with
the exception in ANSI Z223.1/NFPA 54 that "Where
permitted by the authority having jurisdiction,
existing chimneys shall be permitted to have their
use continued when an appliance is replaced by an
appliance of similar type, input rating, and
efficiency." ANSI/NFPA 211 prohibits the use of
single wall metal vent as a chimney, while ANSI
Z223.1 allows it under very restrictive conditions.
In Canada refer to the Natural Gas and LP
Installation Code, CAN/CSA-B149.1
 
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Old 01-29-13, 11:45 AM
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Found this from heating help.com. So its design and the fact that its 85% and nearer condensing type units. I read flue temps do not reach over 300f with this unit. Tiles and condensate dont mix......?????


Low temps in ES2 boiler


The ES2 has the ability to operate at low return water temps because of the casting design. There are no extra controls, software, valves, piping, or pumps required for the boiler operate with constant 110F return water temps as long as the supply water temp is 130F or greater. ES2 castings incorporate a sophisticated baffle design that evenly distributes return water throughout the each casting. This prevents the return water from collecting in one area of the casting, and creating a cool spot that could condense. The baffling acts like a sparge tube by evenly distributing water throughout the casting rather than dumping it all in the same spot.
In addition, the inside surfaces of the water jackets have a special texture which creates turbulence and causes the water to constantly tumble mixing and blending water temperatures throughout the casting. As water tumbles through the casting, cooler water makes contact with the hotter flue surfaces, enhancing heat transfer, and blending water temps. (Remember - heat transfer is increases when there is a greater temperature differential.)
The ES2 extracts more heat from the combustion process, which allows the boiler to achieve a higher efficiency (85% AFUE), but this also results in lower flue temperatures than boilers with lower efficiency ratings. The chimney liner requirement is there to protect the homeowner and the installer from chimney or draft problems. NFPA requires chimney liners in many atmospheric boiler installations, so the liner requirement is not exclusive the ES2 in many instances. Hope this helps.
Nate Warren
Product Manager
U.S. Boiler Co / Burnham
 
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Old 01-29-13, 11:53 AM
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Very much the same situation as the MPO I just installed...

I don't know ANY material that 'likes' acidic condensate, but mortar is VERY unhappy with it... look at the tops of almost any chimney these days... and I don't imagine the clay liners would be keen on being drenched with it...

So, any way you dice it, that chimney should have a proper liner installed, IMHO.
 
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Old 01-29-13, 01:00 PM
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A little bit more about the MPO for reference to your current dilemna...

My MPO is a 5" vent, into a 6" chimney (insulated, manufactured).

As you may recall from my installation thread, I had a 6" OVD that I wanted to use so I transitioned UP one size, used the existing OVD and up into the 6" chimney.

Flue gas temp at the breech runs around 380 or so, but by the time that it gets up to the entrance to the chimney, this is down to UNDER 200F and condensate POURS down that chimney.

The REASON that the temp is that low is because of the dilution air required to 'make up the difference' in the two flue sizes... in other words, feeding 5" worth of flue gas into a 6" chimney means more air in the baro damper to make up the difference in volume. PLUS, the gas flow slows down going to the larger size...

I feel that the installation you mention will run into very similar problem for basically the same reasons.

Bigger chimney, increased dilution, cooler gases, slower gas flow = condensation formation
 
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Old 01-29-13, 01:05 PM
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Yeah its up to the guy.... I figure if he is not doing the liner the temps may be ok at the flue from boiler to chimney. I assume condensation will be in the masonry part only so no damage to boiler. There is a HWH on it also.



From what I see here in NJ the chimneys are 8" square most common... I think? Its been about 7 years since I lined a chimney.

I told him put a series 2 in, offer the guy $300 bucks back for his rebate, and an additional $300 for good measure. That would be the price of the liner and additional labor at a minimum....

Trying to teach this guy "work smarter not harder" He is 30 yr old whipper snapper that knows zilch.... Trying to maximize his profit.

Putting this boiler in he is now going to lose money... Liner and labor that he did not factor in because he does not read manuals... Only knows how to read his bank account....
Uggggg.
 
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Old 01-29-13, 01:47 PM
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Trying to teach this guy "work smarter not harder" He is 30 yr old whipper snapper that knows zilch.... Trying to maximize his profit.

Putting this boiler in he is now going to lose money... Liner and labor that he did not factor in because he does not read manuals... Only knows how to read his bank account...


I'd say this statement pretty much sums it all up. That's why most small business owners who think they know it all fail during the first 2 years of business.
 
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Old 01-29-13, 04:30 PM
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My gas boiler is served by a 60-year-old chimney lined with 10" diameter vitrified clay, bell tile, with bells up. Each bell is mortared. The chimney has been recently inspected when the exposed part of the chimney was tuck-pointed - the liner and the chimney's top mortar are fine. I haven't seen any indication of condentation. The exhaust from the top of the chimney is clear (indicating dry flue gas) for the first 8-12" or so, before a visible plume appears.

My boiler efficiency is about 80% and my annual fuel cost for heating is less than $1,000. If and when it comes time to replace my original boiler, I will not want the new one to be much more efficient.
 
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Old 01-30-13, 07:11 AM
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For the fun of it (that counts while recouping and spending way too much time online) I looked at the install link.

It states: "PROTECT EACH BOILER circuit with a properly sized over-current protection device."

What's that mean.... does this need a special type of breaker or something like that?

My newish system is similar to what this fellow's installing, and the power comes straight from a 1940's BX cabled ceiling box near where the old boiler was. Nothing was done to protect against over-current
 
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Old 01-30-13, 07:47 AM
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Nothing was done to protect against over-current
I believe that what this refers to is the proper size circuit breaker of fuse at the service panel.
 
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Old 01-30-13, 05:18 PM
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OK so busy day today. Talked the guy out of the es2. Unfortunatly where we went to go pick it up and exchange for a series 2 they did not have any.... With that said we settled with what they did have.

Utica..... I cant find the paperwork online... I left it at the job site. Anyway I think I have an issue.

Here is the old boiler I removed. An old peerless.

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Note the 3 circs. This is a two story home. The boiler was a 160k btu with a IBR of 92k. Huge right?

I pursueded him into a 96k input boiler with a DOE of 69k.


Also with that said I did away with the circs and installed zone valves.


I think I may be in trouble here. Possibly size, but also the circ that came with the boiler was Grunfos UP 15-42F. Looks very small. I have not looked at the curve yet.

Also note the center circ on the old boiler was a three speed old grunfoss.
( Now mine...LOL) The other two were 007 I think. Why was that one a three speed...?

Uggg bit off more then I can chew but I was thrown into this today and did not see this job prior. Rush rush rush....


Here is how far I got. All piping done and soldered. Need to wire, flue, install water heater, strap some pipes...etc.

I installed bypass etc.... Left my level at home so was all done by eye. Was at the mercy of the man with the money and fittings were slim. He did supply nice bleeder shut offs though.

Start
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Completed pipe pics below
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Old 01-30-13, 05:45 PM
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I found the pump cureve. Note sureif its the brute 2 or the FC. All I did was write the # down from the pump...

UP 15-42F....


Still looking for the boiler docs. They dont show that style and I forgot the #.... Must be the 2012 compliant model because it has that digital control on the side.

( LOL you see the paperwork on the boiler? Thats where I left it when taking pics.... Ha ha. I wanted to bring it home and read up on the wiring)
 
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Old 01-31-13, 04:07 PM
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Complete. Could not fire or fill. Water still off to home as well as gas. Electrician has to run conduit to the boiler,,,etc

Have to figure if I did LWCO correctly to this argo zone controller. Was not sure how to hook it to the honeywell control on the boiler. I guess I will not know it the circ is sufficient until I fire it up.




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Old 01-31-13, 06:20 PM
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Pretty nifty, purge valves and gauges present - hard to tell. And that flex gas feed... consider running it parallel to the system instead of sticking out in the kids kick a ball around zone.

Looks a lot better than what you took out.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 07:25 PM
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I have the Grundofs 15-42 on my ES2. Two heating zones and 1 zone for hot water. Works fine. I believe it's the counterpart to the Taco 007.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 07:50 PM
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I have the Grundofs 15-42 on my ES2.
You lined your chimney? You have ODR?


 
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Old 02-02-13, 02:12 PM
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It was unlined for the first year. I decided to get it lined. Actually, I think I had to get it lined since I decided to get permits for it a year later. Whatever, I was concerned about the chimney being damaged. The thing was recently rebuilt and it is a nice masonry chimney. That is not an expense I want to ever have to face.

I have ODR and paid about $1,300 to have it lined.
 
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Old 02-28-13, 09:15 PM
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So this job has become the nightmare from hell.......

I fixed 14 leaks today on second floor and installed new BB in the porch with an additional 4 leaks. There is one more left in the ceiling somewhere. I will go back tomorrow or Sat to investigate.

Anyway this is what I salvaged for my self. I will use for my own home....

Question..... The copper seems thin... Should I not install in my home? This is old slant fin from 1971 from what I can gather.

Here is the BB. I am scraping the old covers. ( Loaded on the back of old red... I love my truck....LOL)


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Her is the new BB I installed. I told my boss the BB was good and just fix the leaks. He insisted. After this I found 18 more leaks throughout the home. Well its just the new covers.... I lost some pics....LOL


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Here is what I delt with.... All I could say is if you are in a place that is a summer home in cold areas and prone to freezing and power outages.... Use antifreeze. Even though I stated my dislike of it many times. It has its place and this is one of them. Anyway...cut it out, 2 couplings, and a piece of pipe... NEXT!!!!!


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Ell loop blown out.


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Prepped getting ready to sweat.

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All and all I am tired.... I did 16 leaks today in 6 hours and set a vanity....


With that said there is one more leak in a crosover pipe somewhere in the ceiling in the LR. How do I know? It was raining through light fixtures. I don't know whether to bust open walls or ceilings... Ugggg.


Oh here is the Atlantic with a fog rolling out. The ocean was a bit rough. Boardwalk making headway after sandy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfFozmWpqjg&feature=youtu.be
 
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