Heat doesn't circulate

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Old 02-01-13, 04:45 PM
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Heat doesn't circulate

Still having trouble with Weil Mclain CCT propane heater. It heats the regular hot water. Will not continually heat the water in the radiator pipes. Replaced actuator valve and cartridge too. Was told there could be air in the lines, so bled both up and down stair zones. Could this be a circulating pump problem? (Uses a TACO 007 and entire boiler system is 5 years old)
 
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Old 02-01-13, 04:52 PM
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You say "still" - what is the history of this problem? What do you mean by "continually"? What do you mean by "acutator valve"? Put your ear up to the pump - is it running when it should be? Are you getting 120-V to the pump? (If you don't have a multimeter and know how to use it, best to call a pro.)

Photos of your system are necessary for us to understand. Please post them.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:03 PM
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Tim, take a look at the pressure and temperature gauge on your boiler and tell us both readings.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:05 PM
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By the way, you typed " C C T " ... is that the correct model?

Could it be " C G T " ?
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:06 PM
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pressure is around 20 and the temp is 140
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:09 PM
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your correct - it is CGT. As for the pump, it doesn't make any noise.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:10 PM
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Doug, (Tim correct me if I'm wrong), the CGt boilers have a 'diverter' valve which when there is a 'low limit' call for domestic water, will divert all of the boiler water through the boiler to provide priority to that domestic hot water demand. I believe this is what Tim changed...

See manual:

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets...0-290_0212.pdf
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:13 PM
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Do you own and know how to use a multimeter?

You say you have up and downstairs zones... are these individually controlled with separate thermostats? and there are additional electric zone valves that open and close for each zone?

When the zones should be calling for heat in the home, is there ANY activity at the boiler? Does the burner fire?
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:14 PM
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Yes, the cartridge is in the actuator 3 way valve (honeywell part# VCZZ6100)
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:15 PM
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I strongly distrust gauges, but for now I am going to presume yours is OK and the 20 PSI is enough for troubleshooting other stuff... it may actually be a bit on the high side, but not the reason for 'no heat'. We can talk about that more later...
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:19 PM
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Sorry, don't own meter. Separate thermostats. When the thermostat in cranked up all the way to 90, the boiler fires up but the temp never gets past 65 and all the baseboard don't heat up. Its like it doesn't totally recycle.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:22 PM
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You can use a screwdriver as a sort of 'stethoscope' to listen for the pump running...

Put the HANDLE end to your ear and the POINTY end on the pump.

Can you hear any motor or water pumping sounds?

Without a meter it may be difficult to determine if the problem is the pump, or the control board.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:27 PM
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I don't hear anything. If the pump is not working, do you know how I would be able to get hot water to some of the radiators?
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:30 PM
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Did this stop working all of a sudden?

Can you follow the troubleshooting procedure as much as possible in the manual I linked to and let us know what the lights on the module tell us?
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:35 PM
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If the pump is not working, do you know how I would be able to get hot water to some of the radiators?
If the pump isn't working, the only hope that you might have would be by 'gravity flow'.

This would involve manually opening the zone valves and possibly some other valves.

Can you locate your electric zone valves? Tell us the make/model...

Is it possible for you to post some pictures? It would make it a bit easier for us if we could visualize the system so we could tell you what to try.

This is where the meter would REALLY come in handy... if the pump is not working, we would be able to determine if it was getting voltage or not. If it IS getting voltage, then the pump would be suspect, if it is NOT getting voltage, the trouble could be in the control board.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:36 PM
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How comfortable are you at working on 120 VAC electrical circuits?
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:37 PM
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The cartridge in the 3 way valve was making all kinds of noises. When I attempted to take it out it came apart. I thought i got all the pieces out but some might have fell down the pipe into the pump. The trouble shooting in the manual, tells me to bleed the pipes. I'm sure air got into the line when I changed the cartridge but I bleed both zone and had water without any air bubbles coming through.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:43 PM
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Is there a 'manual/automatic' lever on the 3 way valve control head?

Is it in the automatic position?
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:46 PM
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The cartridge in the 3 way valve was making all kinds of noises. When I attempted to take it out it came apart. I thought i got all the pieces out but some might have fell down the pipe into the pump. The trouble shooting in the manual, tells me to bleed the pipes. I'm sure air got into the line when I changed the cartridge but I bleed both zone and had water without any air bubbles coming through.
Just so I clearly understand the trouble...

BEFORE you changed the 3 way actuator, etc,

What trouble were you having? In other words, what was the ORIGINAL reason that you worked on the valve?

Give me the History 101 of the problem from start to now.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:54 PM
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The 3 way valve is operated by a honeywell actuator VCZNE6100 (weil mclain#635-100-023). It goes up when you turn on the hot water at the sink and goes down for allowing hot water into the heating system. (this is a "Gold CGT gas w/tankless heater"). I won't be able to get you pictures until Monday. Will that be ok with you, if so what is the best time?
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:57 PM
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It was the noise coming from the acutator valve body housing the 3 way cartridge. Which was probably caused by the water being pushed through the pieces of the cartridge.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 05:59 PM
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I won't be able to get you pictures until Monday. Will that be ok with you, if so what is the best time?
Any time you can post the pics would be fine, but we want to get you going before then if it is possible.

Right about the valve, I understand that part, what I was wondering is if your model have the manual/auto lever on it, some do and some don't. It is possible to accidentally 'lock' the valve in manual... that's what I was asking.


How comfortable are you at working on 120 VAC electrical circuits?
Have you ever replaced a light switch or an outlet? Rewired a lamp? installed a ceiling light?

Let me know because I have something I may suggest that you try.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 06:06 PM
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It was the noise coming from the acutator valve body housing the 3 way cartridge. Which was probably caused by the water being pushed through the pieces of the cartridge.
And up until that time the heat was working properly?
 
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Old 02-01-13, 06:10 PM
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Yes, since I replaced a zone valve for the upstairs zone.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 06:30 PM
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How comfortable are you at working on 120 VAC electrical circuits?
Have you ever replaced a light switch or an outlet? Rewired a lamp? installed a ceiling light?

Let me know because I have something I may suggest that you try.
.................................................
 
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Old 02-01-13, 06:34 PM
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Tim, I think I'm asking questions faster than you can answer them... you probably have a 3 minute wait between postings... so I'm going to slow down a bit. Please scan back and answer any questions which you may have missed because of the 'rapid fire'...
 
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Old 02-01-13, 06:47 PM
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Gotta go out for a bit... so let me ask you this in the meantime...

Are you absolutely certain that you re-opened any valves which you closed during the cartridge replacement?

Please describe the piping in and out of the boiler. Do you know if you have what we refer to as 'purge stations' on the piping? This would look like a shutoff valve, right next to a drain valve.
 
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Old 02-01-13, 07:49 PM
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The pump has a hum when I listened to it with the screwdriver. I don't hear any pumping sounds. Rechecked to make sure all valves were open. There purge outlet right after the 3 way valve. There are two other ones for each zone at the end of the cycle. (all these are set up to connect a hose to them for drainage)
 
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Old 02-01-13, 07:53 PM
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I have done a little bit of wiring (a pool, transfer switch for generator, finished basement with numerous outlets, etc)
 
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Old 02-01-13, 08:26 PM
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The pump has a hum when I listened to it with the screwdriver.
It's probably getting power and you may be correct that something fell inside it... were there SMALL pieces when the cartridge broke apart? The throat of the pump is not that big really.

I was going to suggest that you get a lamp cord and connect it directly to the pump, but if you say it's humming I don't think there's any point in that now.

Based on what I've learned, it's either a piece of plastic wedged in the impeller of the pump, or the system is 'air bound'.

There are two other ones for each zone at the end of the cycle. (all these are set up to connect a hose to them for drainage)
Are you saying that there is a SHUTOFF valve immediately preceded or followed by a DRAIN? If so this may be what we are looking for.

The following drawing is not complete, but I wanted to post it to illustrate a point about purging:

Name:  purge station 1.jpg
Views: 1924
Size:  29.3 KB

This system is not set up the way yours is, but look it over and understand the principle of forcing the water to follow the path you want it to... IF you have purge stations.

In the top graphic, you can see that opening the drain will not purge air out of the zones.

In the bottom graphic, by closing that shutoff, you force the water to travel through the zone.

Before suggesting that you drain the system again to clean out the pump impeller, see if you can determine which valves you might be able to close to force water through the zones and blow any air out ahead of it. 'Become the water'.
 
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Old 02-02-13, 01:49 PM
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Good afternoon NJ Trooper,
I think I'm going to buy a pump on Monday. I also found sediment in the line from well. I still have a question on purging air out of system. Since I have two zones do I purge them separately or do I purge them when the return pipes merge together before they go back into boiler? If so, it is not the lowest point on the system.
Thanks for all your help.
Tim
 
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Old 02-02-13, 02:05 PM
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Before buying a replacement pump, I would pull the motor housing, which includes the impeller, off the pump. It means just removing the four cap screws on the Taco pump. If the impeller is jammed with debris, you could remove the debris and chances are the pump will be OK. Or, if the impeller is chewed up, you can just replace the internal pump cartridge instead of the whole pump.

If you don't have isolation valves on each side of the pump, you will have to drain the system to pull off the motor housing (which you will have to do anyway if you replace the pump).
 
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Old 02-02-13, 04:00 PM
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Thanks, I'll try that tomorrow. Still getting intermittent heat. Someone would kill me if they didn't any heat at all tonight. (I guess I'd be the only one getting some heat)
 
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Old 02-02-13, 04:17 PM
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If so, it is not the lowest point on the system.
Tim, you need to understand that it doesn't have to be the 'LOWEST POINT'... the water will exit the system and the lowest PRESSURE point, which would happen to be an open drain. Again, this drain does not need to be the physically lowest point in the system. My drawing shows it as such, but that drawing is intended to show the PRINCIPLE of how a 'purge station' works.

Since I have two zones do I purge them separately or do I purge them when the return pipes merge together before they go back into boiler?
This would all be SO much easier if I could see your system... I don't know how else to explain it...

Please examine your system, and answer this question:

On the returns back to the boiler, are there SHUTOFF VALVES, and right next to them, are there DRAIN VALVES?
 
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Old 02-02-13, 04:36 PM
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There is a shut off and drain valve at the end of each zone return. Then the pipes go up and merge into one pipe with a shut off, then a drain valve before it goes back into the boiler.
 
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Old 02-02-13, 06:57 PM
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OK... it sounds as if you have purge stations then...

First on one zone,
  1. Connect hose to drain for that zone.
  2. [*]
  3. [*]
  4. MANUALLY OPEN ZONE VALVES
  5. [*]
  6. [*]
  7. After no more air bubbles, release fast fill, close drain.
Repeat for second zone.

When both zones are purged,
  1. OPEN the shutoff valves
  2. [*]
 
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Old 02-02-13, 07:55 PM
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This is probably a stupid question but on the zone valves (the things that look like old microphones) is the lever up or down to shut off?
How does the air from the two individual shut off valves back to the boiler get purged?
 
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Old 02-02-13, 08:08 PM
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Aren't they marked as to 'auto' 'man' or something some such like that?

Old Microphones, I like that! Never thought about them like that in spite of the fact that I've got a pretty nice collection of old microphones myself!

They sound like TACO valves?

How does the air from the two individual shut off valves back to the boiler get purged?
Once you have water circulation, the small amount of air left in the small section of pipes should find it's way out the auto vents. There may be a way to get it out but without a clear understanding or pictures of your system, I can't really say.
 
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Old 02-04-13, 08:15 PM
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When I pulled circulator pump apartm found a piece of debris from the actuator cylinder. It must have been stopping the pump blades from turning. Put it all back together and it seems to being working. Thanks for all your help. Have a great day.

tim
 
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Old 02-04-13, 08:26 PM
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I kinda suspected that would be the case looking at the location of the pump in relation to the valve that imploded itself...

Glad ya got it working!
 
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