Adding zone to hot water heating system

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  #41  
Old 02-19-13, 07:01 PM
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I don't think I mentioned this 'rule' or not?

Strive to have at least 12" of straight pipe ahead of any pump, on the suction side.

Not a 'rule', but will make life easier in the future...

Use ISOLATION FLANGES to mount the pumps. This allows changing pumps in the future a breeze, no need to drain the system. Also, these valves can help to isolate parts of the system for future service.

For this reason it might be advantageous to add FULL PORT ball valves in a few key places... for example on the RETURN from the main system. Closing this valve and one of the valves on the isolation flange for the pump would allow you to drain just the boiler if you needed to do anything on it that required draining.

Can Pump P2 be directly above P1 on a straight line?
If I understand the question correctly, NO. Go back and look at the construction details of the "Closely Spaced Tees" in post #18.

But maybe I didn't understand the question? Draw up a diagram showing me what you are asking.

I think it would be noisy. Also, its looks to be a fairly heavy pump. Do I need the full 1/12 HP?
Is it noisy now? You should hardly hear that pump running...

Pump selection is sorta tricky... you can PROBABLY use a different pump there, but without being able to see all the details about how it's currently piped, it's hard to say.

What's the make/model of the pump that's installed now?
 
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  #42  
Old 02-19-13, 07:23 PM
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I added the ball valve I mentioned, and also added a 'purge valve'. Without these two valves you won't be able to properly flush air out of the system when you refill it.

I also added a note to use a pump with internal flow check valve ( I F C ) on the boiler. You need this to prevent 'gravity flow' in the system when the pump isn't running.

I left out a lot of details when doing these originally in order to save time...

Decide which one you are going to go with and I'll try to add what you need.

You aren't going to tackle these major changes until the heating season is over, right? Just in case you run into some 'snag'? That's my advice anyways...

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  #43  
Old 02-09-14, 11:39 AM
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Back after a 1 year pause

NJ Trooper,

I am still here and my project is still live, so your time was not wasted. My rush last February was due to a misplaced desire to have my plumber do the heating system at the same time he did other work. In any case, my multifaceted project is coming to a conclusion and Iím ready to tackle the heating. But before I hook up a two-zone system, I think I should test it as one zone. I suppose there is some small probability it would work adequately as a one-zone system.

Iíd like advice on how to control the system as one zone. Looking at your post #26 in this thread, it appears that I can split each of the two thermostat wires now going to my boiler and connect the split-off wires to the two far-right terminals on the Azel controller (the R/T and W/T terminals, respectively). Is that right? If so: (a) to which Azel terminal should the thermostat wire now going to the Y boiler terminal go, and (b) to which Azel terminal should the thermostat wire now going to the G boiler terminal go?

I would also like advice on how to fill the system. My incomplete and probably flawed tentative plan is:
1. Turn off the system
2. Open the connection between the boiler supply line and the Floor system circulator pump
3. Open the valve that is between the two hose bib connections on the floor system circulator system pump piping (wall panel piping) shown here: http://www.randallmariger.com/heat_s...mageFull15.htm
4. Let the system automatically supply water to fill the system

Question: Where do I bleed the floor system? The two wall panel hose bid connections are on the supply side of the floor system. It would seem I need to bleed on the return side. This makes me wonder if I got the supply and return sides mixed up when connecting the boiler to wall panel piping. (The company I purchased the kit from approve the annotated photo with link above.)

Thanks in advance for your help.
Randy
 
  #44  
Old 02-09-14, 03:00 PM
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Thanks so much. I'm very much interested in your recommendations, and will not dissappear.
What is it they say about 'Famous Last Words' ?

Go back and read the edit I just added to post #38, I think I misunderstood the original question.



Looking at your post #26 in this thread, it appears that I can split each of the two thermostat wires now going to my boiler and connect the split-off wires to the two far-right terminals on the Azel controller (the R/T and W/T terminals, respectively). Is that right? If so: (a) to which Azel terminal should the thermostat wire now going to the Y boiler terminal go, and (b) to which Azel terminal should the thermostat wire now going to the G boiler terminal go?
I'm not sure I understand the question Randy.

You haven't made any changes in the piping yet... no zone valves, etc?

In that case:

Yes, the radiant thermostat connects to the thermostat connections on the Azel panel.

Polarity is not important on the G and Y connections. The terminals on the Azel panel that will wire to the G and Y terminals are labeled as COM and NO (normally open).

What is the complete model info of the Azel panel again? I think there may be a jumper missing in my drawing. What terminals were connected when you got the assembly from RFC?

I would like to know how that is wired so we don't blow something up.

I would also like advice on how to fill the system. My incomplete and probably flawed tentative plan is:
1. Turn off the system
2. Open the connection between the boiler supply line and the Floor system circulator pump
3. Open the valve that is between the two hose bib connections on the floor system circulator system pump piping (wall panel piping) shown here: http://www.randallmariger.com/heat_s...mageFull15.htm
4. Let the system automatically supply water to fill the system
I usually throw some 'zen' into this type of discussion and tell ppl to 'become one with the water'... and they would know which way the water flows... but that's a little vague and too 'new age-ish' I think.

I don't know where the water is coming into your system currently... so can't be very specific.

Also don't know if there is an internal check valve in the pump for the radiant floor... I think there is NOT ? I ask because need to know if water will flow backward through the pump under pressure.

Let's presume that there is NOT a check valve in the pump:



Rule one: Water ALWAYS will flow from higher to lower pressure.

Rule two: an OPEN drain valve is the lowest pressure point in the system.

Rule three: we need a 'roadblock' to the water sometimes to get it to go where we want it to go.

That valve between the two hose bibs on the radiant assembly is that 'roadblock'.

You would CLOSE that valve and connect a hose to the right hand drain valve.

Open drain valve and water should enter the boiler, travel backward through the radiant pump, through the floor tubing, back to the open drain.

To ensure that EACH tube is purged and full, you want to close the valves at the manifold and open one at a time to push the water through only one tube at a time.

After all the floor tubing is filled, close the drain and put the hose on the OTHER drain, still with the valve between them closed.

Open that drain and you will be able to fill the other sections of pipe.
 
  #45  
Old 02-10-14, 05:44 PM
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Yes, I have not made any changes to the system. The Azel reference manual is here: http://www.randallmariger.com/azel_sp81manual.pdf
The setup I have in mind is one zone controlled by one thermostat, the one that is now connected to my boiler at the Y and G terminals. The Azel would only control the floor-system pump--the boiler will be controlled as it is now.

With regard to fill, I think I now understand how it would normally be done for the floor system in isolation (i.e., if I filled it with the valves connecting the primary and floor systems shut).

But I think there may be an easier way if I install a bleed valve just to the right of where the primary and secondary systems join on the return side. The primary system automatically adds water (I think based on pressure)--the water enters high above the boiler (just under the floor joists) on the return side. So if I open up the two connections between the two systems, the pressure would fall and water would be added automatically. My tentative plan would be to fill each of the four floor loops one at a time in succession. For each fill, the water could take only one path through the secondary system, and it would bleed at the point where the water re-enters the primary system (which is a local high point in the piping).

Does this make sense?

Thanks,
Randy
 
  #46  
Old 02-10-14, 07:03 PM
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The Azel reference manual is here:
The drawing is OK, the jumper shown is the one that powers the pump circuit.

But I think there may be an easier way if I install a bleed valve just to the right of where the primary and secondary systems join on the return side. The primary system automatically adds water (I think based on pressure)--the water enters high above the boiler (just under the floor joists) on the return side. So if I open up the two connections between the two systems, the pressure would fall and water would be added automatically. My tentative plan would be to fill each of the four floor loops one at a time in succession. For each fill, the water could take only one path through the secondary system, and it would bleed at the point where the water re-enters the primary system (which is a local high point in the piping).
I'm not sure I'm following you. You don't need to install any additional bleed valves.

Open the ball valves between the two 'systems'.

As stated in previous post, connect a drain hose to the right hand hose bib and CLOSE the valve between the two hose bibs.

Water will flow into the boiler system from the city water connection and out the drain, pushing any air ahead of it.

Yes, fill each of the four tubes, one at a time.

Close drain...

move drain hose to other hose bib and push out any remaining air.

Close drain and open ball valve between the drains.

It's that easy. The idea is to push the air out through the drain hose. You seem to be making it more complicated than necessary.
 
  #47  
Old 02-13-14, 09:09 AM
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I'm not sure I'm following you. You don't need to install any additional bleed valves.

Open the ball valves between the two 'systems'.

As stated in previous post, connect a drain hose to the right hand hose bib and CLOSE the valve between the two hose bibs.

Water will flow into the boiler system from the city water connection and out the drain, pushing any air ahead of it.

Yes, fill each of the four tubes, one at a time.

Close drain...

move drain hose to other hose bib and push out any remaining air.

Close drain and open ball valve between the drains.

It's that easy. The idea is to push the air out through the drain hose. You seem to be making it more complicated than necessary.
Thanks again for your prompt response.

First, in your post #44, the first image of my system is not correct but the second image is. The first image shows the supply side of my secondary system being above the return side. The second image has it right. I copy it below.

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I assume you mean I should hook up a supply hose (not a drain hose) to the spigot to the right of the ball valve (which is closed). If the ball valve is closed as you suggest, that would cut off all supply to the secondary system coming by way of the primary system, and any supply must come from an external supply (i.e., a supply hose). But if I connected a supply hose to the right spigot, it would seem that the newly introduced water and air forced ahead of it would have to go through the primary system pump and boiler before it could get to the left-side bleed spigot. Is that what you have in mind? This would seem to work much better if there was a bleed value on the return side of the secondary system just before it joins the primary system.

On wiring, you say the Y and G connections have no polarity. I take that to mean that my thermostat always energizes either both wires or neither wire. Is that right?

Thanks.
 
  #48  
Old 02-13-14, 04:50 PM
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I assume you mean I should hook up a supply hose (not a drain hose) to the spigot to the right of the ball valve (which is closed).
Randy, no... you don't need a hose to fill the system. You already HAVE a water connection to the system. I DID mean a drain hose!

When you connect the drain hose to that drain valve and open it, water will flow into the system through the existing water fill connection and through the tubing loops and out the drain.

Is that what you have in mind?
No, not at all.

When you connect a drain to that right hand hose bib, the water will enter the system and flow BACKWARD through the floor tubing, pump, and out the drain, along with any air in the tubing... that air will be pushed OUT of the system.

Do as you suggest and you will be pushing that air INTO the system, you don't want to do that.

On wiring, you say the Y and G connections have no polarity. I take that to mean that my thermostat always energizes either both wires or neither wire. Is that right?
No, not really...

The thermostat doesn't 'energize' anything. All the thermostat does is place a 'contact closure' between the Y and G terminals.
 
  #49  
Old 02-14-14, 11:31 AM
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Of course! How dumb of me -- took those water direction arrows too seriously.

Thanks for setting me straight on thermostat wring. Found this diagram:

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Given this new understanding, I suspect my wiring plan is faulty and I didn't explain it well. This was my plan:

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By adding the Azel to the mix, it would appear I'm joining two 24 volt AC circuits, one with 24V power originating from the boiler, and one with 24V power originating from the Azel. That would result in fireworks, no?

Thanks for tolerating my naivetť.

Randy
 
  #50  
Old 02-14-14, 12:08 PM
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By adding the Azel to the mix, it would appear I'm joining two 24 volt AC circuits, one with 24V power originating from the boiler, and one with 24V power originating from the Azel. That would result in fireworks, no?
Correct, you can NOT do that. It may or may not result in fireworks, but the possibility of frying one or both of the 24 VAC transformers in either the boiler or the Azel is real.

What you CAN do is go back and look at the diagram in post #44...

Connect the single thermostat to the Azel as shown, and ignoring the zone valves that are shown there, run the wires to the G & Y on the boiler from the 'endswitch' of the Azel as shown.

When thermostat calls, the Azel will 'trigger', the endswitch in the Azel will pass on the call to the boiler.
 
  #51  
Old 02-17-14, 01:39 PM
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Iím glad I didnít do that!

I have another undoubtedly dumb question.

Iíve filled the system and have connected AC power to the Azel. I plan to test the system as follows: (1) turn off the main thermostat and the power switch to the Azel, (2) jump the RT and WT terminals on the Azel to simulate a thermostatís call for heat once I power the Azel, (3) temporarily connect the Azel to the Boiler while keeping the connection to the boiler from the main thermostat intact, and (4) turn on the power switch to the Azel.

Questions:

1. First, is this a good plan? (Iím not doing a permanent installation now so I can easily go back to what I had if I have problems.)

2. Would it be ok to keep all these wire connections, turn off the Azel, and turn on the main thermostat? Or should I disconnect the boiler from the Azel before using the main thermostat?

3. Iím having problems with step 2. I cannot figure out how the Azel RT and WT terminal connections work. A photo is here:

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There are no screws as with the other terminal connections. The little gap you see at the bottom of each terminal is not large enough to get a thermostat wire into. Iíve pushed down on the little plastic tabs above the terminals, but that does nothing. The Azel instructions say nothing about these connections other than to use them.

Thanks,
Randy
 

Last edited by randym; 02-17-14 at 02:41 PM.
  #52  
Old 02-17-14, 02:59 PM
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First, is this a good plan?
I guess so... not sure what the goal is though? Just to see if the Azel panel works?

Iíve pushed down on the little plastic tabs above the terminals, but that does nothing
Maybe lift the tabs?

Or try pushing the tab down and stabbing the wire in... maybe the tab releases the spring tension and that metal piece will move back easily when you push the wire in?
 
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Old 02-17-14, 03:27 PM
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I guess these aren't standard connections. The tabs don't push up. I have emailed the company I purchased the kit from, and will follow up with a call to them tomorrow. Maybe parts are missing.

Yes, I want to be sure all works before I redirect my primary thermostat wire to the Azel.

Thanks,
Randy
 
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Old 02-17-14, 03:49 PM
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Did you try pushing the tab down and then pushing the wire in while the tab was down?

If they work this way you might want to think twice about putting a jumper in because it might not come out again.

You can probably just touch a wire to the exposed metal pieces inside the holes for test purposes.
 
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Old 02-17-14, 05:33 PM
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I fiddled around some more and discovered that pushing back on the tabs does the trick. All is working as expected. The above-slab water circulation in the slab system is noisy, which made me wonder if it was due to air in the system. Did some more draining and no difference. I think the extra noise is due to its being 3/4" pipe while the rest of the system is 1-1/2" to 3 inch.

Later in the week I will set up the thermostat and see if the system is miraculously balanced as a one-zone system. I expect not, and I will have it re-piped for two zones in the Spring and will be hitting you up for more info then.

Thanks again for all your help.

Randy
 
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