Hot water pressure issue

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Old 02-27-13, 10:09 AM
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Hot water pressure issue

Hello All! I recently purchased my new home and I have been having some minor issues with the hotwater pressure. To give you a brief rundown of my current heating system see below:


70,000BTU Peerless Boiler
Riello Oil Burner
Honeywell Aquastat L8124A1015 Relay
Beckett Heat Manager with AT72D1683 Transformer


My hot-water comes from the coil in the boiler and what we have been experiencing is that when the shower is on using hot water I get NO Hot-water pressure ANYWHERE else in the house. The hot-water literally comes to a hault and is only available in the shower. If i do the same with cold water the pressure may drop maybe 10% but I am still getting plenty of cold water.


I have spoken to a few people and since this is only happening with the hot water I was told that the coil can be clogged and I would need to get it cleaned out or de-scaled. What is involved with cleaning out the coil? Is it something I would be able to do?

Regards,

James
 
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Old 02-27-13, 11:43 AM
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What is involved with cleaning out the coil? Is it something I would be able to do?
It usually means that some valves need to be added to the piping so that a technician can connect a pump to the coil in order to circulate an acid solution through the coil for a couple hours.

Probably not something you want to get involved in...
 
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Old 02-27-13, 01:38 PM
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I just called a company the cleans hot water coils and they stated that they don't believe it is the coil that is clogged. The boiler is only 7 years old and they said it should not be clogged.

What could the other possible causes be? Cold water works fine...
 
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Old 02-27-13, 01:50 PM
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Don't you just love telephone diagnostics? Find another company that can come out and actually look at what's going on and quote you on the service. Post the results here for more advise.
 
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Old 02-27-13, 04:11 PM
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minor issues with the hotwater pressure
...when the shower is on using hot water I get NO Hot-water pressure ANYWHERE else in the house.
To me, this sounds more MAJOR than minor! If my family had to deal with this, I would never hear the end of it until it was fixed... that's major in my book!

James, let's get a few more questions and answers going here...

First, it might help if you could post some pictures of the piping to and from the hot water coil.

Do you know if there is a TEMPERING VALVE installed on the system? This valve could also cause the problem you are having.

What is your water source? City or private well? Do you know the HARDNESS of the water by any chance? Very hard well water can scale a coil up in short time, whereas very soft water may never pose a problem.

Would you feel comfortable sliding the cover off the Honeywell aquastat and reporting the temperature settings on the three dials you will see inside? There is exposed 120VAC inside that box, so don't go poking fingers in with the power on. TURN THE POWER TO THE BOILER OFF FIRST!
 
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Old 02-28-13, 02:29 PM
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Thanks for your response. I just closed on the house on February 11 so I am still not fully moved in/living there. I will be going to the house tonight and grab pictures.

I am actually pretty handy and I just had to replace the Aquastat L8124A1015 relay so I already know that i set the High to 180 degrees and the low to 140degrees. I believe I set the Differential to 20degrees but I will double check.

I spoke to another company today and they told be it could be a couple of issues. He stated it could be the coil, valve or clogged pipe. They only work Monday - Friday 9-5 (exactly the times when I work so I would have to take off of work for them to come out).

I will post pictures of my setup later tonight.

Thank you so much for your help!
*EDIT*
Forgot to reply to the type of water, I actually do not know what type of water I have, I will have to find out. As for the tempering valve, I do not believe I have one but I will double check and send pic tonight.

*EDIT*
 
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Old 02-28-13, 04:01 PM
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The settings on your new aquastat are probably OK. You might find that you will need to increase the LOW setting a bit though after you live with it for a while. 150 is about as high as I would dare go. The higher you set that LOW setting, the more fuel you will burn.

If there is no tempering valve installed, ask your guy how much to install one. They remove the scalding danger that exists with your type of system. ESPECIALLY during heating season... when the boiler may be at 180° during a heat call. This means you also have the potential for 180° water out the tap if there is no tempering valve. Very dangerous!

Those coils are a very poor way of producing domestic hot water. If you intend to stay in the home for some time, you would be wise to consider abandoning that coil and install an indirect water heater.

I would think you would have been told if your water supply at your new home was a private well system... my guess is you have city water.

Looking forward to the pics...
 
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Old 02-28-13, 06:42 PM
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OK So I was at the house tonight and mapped out the entire system. Attached is a simple but pretty accurate diagram of the plumbing (I used MS Paint ). I am not a plumber and dont exactly know what it all mean to be quite honest.

Here is a brief description of the home:

2 Floor home with Kitchen, Bath, 2 bedrooms, Living Room, Dinning room and mud room/laundry room on the main floor. Upstairs there is a full bath and 2 bedrooms. There is an attached 2 car garage where the oil burner and oil tank is. The wall where the oil burner is is on an inside wall which butts up against the mud room. Luckily I have gas (which runs right behind the oil burner) and I am going to eventually convert, hopefully this summer.

Link to plumbing diagram:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8hkhhowv3d94e6s/Plumbing.jpg

Link to pictures:
**BEWARE its the only place in the house that is not pretty . It's a mess and I am a neat freak, cant wait to clean it up! **

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nuewv1wqnzef4mw/GW4nhr8OOV

Also, I did some research and I believe I have Public water definitely not well water. Let me know if you have any more questions!
 
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Old 02-28-13, 07:44 PM
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I don't see a tempering valve anywhere.

Did the home inspector have anything at all to say about the 'schtuff' that's dripping out of the chimney and making a mess all over everything?

You might want to look into the cause of that mess...
 
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Old 02-28-13, 07:45 PM
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Yes, there was a leak and it was repaired prior to purchase.
 
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Old 02-28-13, 07:46 PM
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Down on the floor, where that green ground wire is connected, there is some kind of box... any idea what that is?
 
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Old 02-28-13, 07:52 PM
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Its just a plastic "bucket" where water drips into from the pipe above, not exactly sure where the is coming from.
 
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Old 02-28-13, 07:55 PM
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Huh? dripping water? what's that all about?

That appears to be where the city water main comes into the home.

Why would there be water dripping there?
 
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Old 02-28-13, 07:59 PM
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OK, I see the pipe now, strapped to the wall, going behind the boiler...

If that is coming off the pressure relief valve for the boiler, that should NOT be dripping any water.

If it is, we need to talk some more... tomorrow... about what to do about that.

Pressure relief valves should NOT drip water continuously!
 
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Old 02-28-13, 08:17 PM
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I will have to take a look on Saturday. I am moving into the house this Saturday and I will be there permanently
 
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Old 03-07-13, 05:11 AM
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We moved into the house on Saturday and after the first couple of days being there I have to say I am upset with the shower . While showering I am only getting 3-5 minutes of hot water than it just runs out. Most of my research is pointing me in the direction that the coil is clogged since I have no water pressure when the tub is on. I am at a point where I do not know what to do. Should I replace the coil or should I just get it de-scaled? The boiler is only 7 years old. The model is a Peerless WBV-03-060-W and the coil is a Triangle Tube X-1019. Last but not least, I feel that whoever installed the boiler did not know what they were doing. I do not have a tempering valve nor do I believe I have a mixing valve. Would it be worth getting those installed?
 
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Old 03-07-13, 05:06 PM
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What about the 'dripping pipe' ? Where does that come from? the pressure relief valve?

Without being there to check a bunch of things out, it's difficult to advise what you should do...

I see a number of 'issues' that should be investigated, including the supposedly 'fixed' leak. I'm not convinced that it was a 'leak' that caused that mess.

I feel that whoever installed the boiler did not know what they were doing.
I'm totally down with your assessment!

Did you turn the LOW up to 150 ? turn the diff all the way to 25 and see if you get any more hot water. Based on the fact that you lose PRESSURE to the rest of the hot water, it seems likely that the coil is plugged up... but many (most?) of them also have a FLOW RESTRICTOR installed in them. Your coil is rated at 2 to 3-1/2 GPM ... NOT MUCH!

Install a low flow shower head and see if that helps. Try to find one with 2 or less GPM rating.

In ANY case, the tempering valve should be installed... for safety sake alone, whether or not the coil is functioning up to par.
 
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Old 03-07-13, 05:25 PM
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What about the 'dripping pipe' ? Where does that come from? the pressure relief valve?
I took a video of the pipe for you. See below. It actually goes to the back of the boiler.

Did you turn the LOW up to 150 ? turn the diff all the way to 25 and see if you get any more hot water. Based on the fact that you lose PRESSURE to the rest of the hot water, it seems likely that the coil is plugged up... but many (most?) of them also have a FLOW RESTRICTOR installed in them. Your coil is rated at 2 to 3-1/2 GPM ... NOT MUCH!
I turned up the HI to 190 and the LO to 150, I also sett the DIFF to 25. See picture below. I will let you know how it is when I shower tomorrow

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1issx3ba6f...2020.18.03.mov

https://www.dropbox.com/s/efvx6erxkz...2020.18.51.jpg
 
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Old 03-08-13, 02:35 PM
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I got dizzy watching that video!

Yeah, that pipe is coming from your pressure relief valve, and it should NOT be dripping continuously.

Is it? [dripping continuously]

You need to determine why that's happening.

By the way, that relief valve should be mounted UPRIGHT.



turned up the HI to 190
Put the HI back to 180. That won't help the hot water situation.
 
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Old 03-09-13, 12:09 AM
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There is a Gate valve (maybe globe? Whats the difference?) on the I think the supply to the coil (right above pressure reducer) is that all the way open?

You also have a Beckett Heat manager that only senses temperature on the heating zones not DHW. Auto default I think is 130F or 135F so even if your low limit is on 175 the HM will not let boiler fire until a certain point (probably time) once aquastat says "fire" unless a heat zone is on at the same time to sense temp change.

If a heat zone IS on at the same time you will DEFINITELY run out of HW VERY fast. I have the same setup but WBV-04 with out HM with 160/180 settings. and HW is scalding or cold. As long as heat is not on I can shower all day. I actually got out of shower a couple times to turn t-stats off so I could finish shower. Just waiting for spring to fix it!
 
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Old 03-09-13, 12:27 AM
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The Beckett HM was the non adjustable version with no display of the Intellidyne Intellicon HW+. http://s3.pexsupply.com/product_files/3250-Install.pdf Page 3 has the default and adjusting for the HW+ which you can't do so you are probably 145F min and/or 180 minutes. Your heating pipe (not coil) after circulator and flo-check will need to get that temp with all the cold flowing through coil to get whole boiler there which will take a while before it kicks in.

They do have the instructions for the HM on pexsupply also AND a hot water sensor is available if you want to continue using it. Just know you won't save great amounts of oil with the tankless coil because of needing to maintain min temps.

Redo the system and add an Indirect water heater (and keep HM). At my old house, changing from crappy boiler with tankless coil to new boiler with indirect water heater AND the intellicon saved me 700 gallons year. At $3.50-$4.00/gal makes for a pretty fast payback of investment.
 
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Old 03-09-13, 06:15 AM
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Good call on the heat manager. The second sensor for the hot water coil is missing from the heat manager. That will also impact the issue at hand. It's not sensing the load on the DHW coil and probably holding the boiler on the low limit fire. You can order the additional sensor online. Do you have the manual for the heat manager? If not download it, it's very basic, nothing to set but it will tell you where and how to put the DHW sensor on the system.

You might want to try disconnecting the heat manager and running off the aquastat alone for a while. That will tell you if the heat manager is the problem or if you have something else going on as well.

You do need the second sensor if you want to continue to use the heat manager.
 
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Old 03-09-13, 06:22 AM
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You might want to try disconnecting the heat manager and running off the aquastat alone for a while. That will tell you if the heat manager is the problem or if you have something else going on as well.
Not sure how I would do that... I am unsure how my zones are controlled to be completely honest. I have 2 Honeywell Motorized valves that connect to the Heat Manager. I believe those valves is what controls the upstairs and downstairs zones correct?
 
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Old 03-09-13, 08:13 AM
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I have 2 Honeywell Motorized valves that connect to the Heat Manager.
If you do have the valves somehow connected to the heat manager, it is set up completely wrong, and I don't know how your system could be working at all.

As mentioned previously, I believe in one of your other threads:

There should only be wires from the heat manager to the L1, L2, B1, and B2 connections.

Whether or not there is a DHW sensor for the hot water coil, this does not explain the lack of pressure. But yes, I believe that you absolutely DO require the second sensor on the hot water coil.
 
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Old 03-09-13, 09:45 AM
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Not sure on the heat manager but the intellicon has a switch on top right corner that say on and bypass. Switch to bypass. all the HM does is use the sensors to determine a heat load and interrupts B1 terminal to B1 lead. Basically when aqauastat says fire, HM says wait until I tell you to. Bypass says Shutup HM and let boiler fire.
 
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Old 03-09-13, 09:46 AM
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If you do have the valves somehow connected to the heat manager, it is set up completely wrong, and I don't know how your system could be working at all.
I traced out the motorized valves. The blue wire connects to C on an AT72D Transformer.

The green wire from the valve connected to the thermostat white wire..

Red wire connected to the Aquastat on the right T terminal.

THe white connects tot the Left T terminal on the Aquastat.

As for the downstairs thermostat, Red connects to the R on the AT72D.

The white wire to the thermostat connects to the Green wire of the motorized valve.

Now after tracing this out it looks like the common wire gets plugged into the C terminal on the AT72D, correct? See the link for the Diagram

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qvzgdaghjk...e%20Wiring.png
 

Last edited by NJT; 03-09-13 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 03-09-13, 10:54 AM
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http://s3.pexsupply.com/product_files/7512-install.pdf

Install instructions for HM and yes it says there is a shutoff/bypass. Use it to diagnose other boiler problems. How is that gate valve on the supply side?
 
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Old 03-09-13, 01:58 PM
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I traced out the motorized valves.
Yes... that's how it should be, and as you see, no connections to the heat manager. Good.

I believe your wiring matches this:

 
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Old 03-09-13, 02:10 PM
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Aside from the lack of pressure, if you don't have the sensor on the hot pipe out of the coil, this could well explain the lack of hot water:

Secondary Domestic Water Temperature Sensor:

This sensor is only used with systems that have a tankless coil in the boiler; it is not needed for systems with an indirect water heater. If needed, attach the sensor to the domestic hot water outflow pipe following the same procedure used for the heating water sensor and plug into ‘Domestic Water Sensor’ jack. If the domestic water sensor detects a demand for hot water, it will override the HeatManager ‘Economizing’ mode and allow the burner to fire.
 
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Old 03-09-13, 03:34 PM
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I definitely don't have the sensor, so you know exactly which sensor I need so I can purchase it and install it?
 
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Old 03-09-13, 03:59 PM
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I believe this is the one, but the product description appears to be incorrect.

7518 - Beckett 7518 - Second sensor (for potable water)
 
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Old 03-09-13, 05:10 PM
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You could call pexsupply or patriot-supply to confirm. This is the one for the HW+ and since they are basically the same. This one is also cheaper price. Where in NY are you? Patriot supply is in Plainview and I think Pexsupply is in Farmingdale about 10 minutes from there.

Patriot Supply - 4001B

Reading the gas conversion posts, how much do you want to do or invest in your system or just switch it?
 
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Old 03-10-13, 06:41 AM
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You could call pexsupply or patriot-supply to confirm. This is the one for the HW+ and since they are basically the same. This one is also cheaper price. Where in NY are you? Patriot supply is in Plainview and I think Pexsupply is in Farmingdale about 10 minutes from there.

Patriot Supply - 4001B

Reading the gas conversion posts, how much do you want to do or invest in your system or just switch it?
I am actually in West Islip, roughly 10-15 minutes from Farmingdale and I work in Syosset which is 5 min from plainview so either are good. I am headed to farmingdale now for some furniture shopping, I will see if they are open. As for the conversion, I am willing to do A LOT of the leg work with my father. We are both very handed and we can go a long way. My father's good friend (now retired) used to install gas boilers for a living and he said that he will do the install with us. I am just not sure which route to take since I have a 7 year old boiler I can just do the Carlin oil > gas conversion OR should I replace the boiler entirely? My oil take is brand new, replaced 6 months ago so I figured I can sell both the boiler and the tank for about $800-$1000.
 
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Old 03-10-13, 06:45 AM
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Not sure on the heat manager but the intellicon has a switch on top right corner that say on and bypass. Switch to bypass. all the HM does is use the sensors to determine a heat load and interrupts B1 terminal to B1 lead. Basically when aqauastat says fire, HM says wait until I tell you to. Bypass says Shutup HM and let boiler fire.
I just looked at the HM and it is on Off/Bypass, no lights are on the HM. Should it be turned on or no?
 
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Old 03-10-13, 07:58 AM
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I don't think PexSupply has a brick and mortar... Patriot does. Patriot has been around a long time as a supply house, Pex started as an internet supply.

I figured I can sell both the boiler and the tank for about $800-$1000.
Good luck with that James. I'd be surprised if you could get barely above scrap value. There is really no market for used boilers. MAYBE you could sell the tank, but honestly, that's doubtful too...

Should it be turned on or no?
There might be a reason it's turned off... i.e. not working... or something other.

I personally don't think they are the "Magic Bullet". Others claim to have gotten better 'mileage' out of them, but I did not. It's up to you if you want to run it or not.
 
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Old 03-10-13, 08:00 AM
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If I keep it off will the other sensor really do anything for the hot water?
 
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Old 03-10-13, 08:17 AM
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If it's already turned off, that means that it is having no effect on the hot water situation.

If you do turn it on, you will need the second sensor.

Perhaps the lack of the second sensor is the reason it was turned off.

You have TWO issues with your hot water supply...

1. Lack of pressure, which could contribute to...

2. Lack of adequate supply of HOT water.

You need to make a decision... S417 or get off the pot!

I mean, you know what needs to be done, right? Either you, or a plumber/tech, needs to determine if the coil is plugged, and steps taken to remediate that issue.

Isn't there a 'faucet' directly on the hot water outlet? Have you put a bucket under that and timed it to get a rough idea of the GPM available from the coil?

I mentioned that there is likely a FLOW RESTRICTOR built into the coil... I believe 3-1/2 GPM... if you can get 3-1/2 GPM from that coil, then it's not clogged. It may be all it can deliver.

You need to look at flow restricted shower head and fixtures in that case.

The fact that the water doesn't stay HOT could be because the coil is scaled up, but not 'clogged'.

There is a reason that I call these systems "THANKLESS" coils. They 5uck.

You would be better off with a pot on a wood stove.
 
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Old 03-10-13, 08:18 AM
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If it is off the other sensor will not do anything. If it was on and working the second sensor would give it input from the DHW on when to fire.

If you are having hot water issues now, turning the HM on with out the sensor will definitely NOT help your situation.

I think you need to find out why there is pressure loss first and get DHW up to par. My WBV-04 is set at 160/180 with a 15 degree diff, might want to try those settings. I don't have any mixing valves either. as long as heat does not turn on while in shower I have plenty of hot water. When first turned on you can definitely burn yourself if boiler is at temp so be careful and watch kids if you have them. Mine is also the 1/2" pipes going through so shouldn't be far off.

The guy who bought my old house kept full setup and ran gas to it with a conversion head. Through National grid it was a $400 part plus install which wasn't much. System already had an indirect water heater and working well so he had minimal to do. Yours is more work since you definitely would want to add the indirect. At that point they need to redo much of the system anyway to get that put in. No clue on efficiency differences with conversion head on yours or new boiler.

The one thing the conversion head DOES give you is the option to switch back should you be inclined to do so someday unless you sell tank etc.
 
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