[long! read only if you're bored/have time] mod/con boiler if i don't want one

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  #41  
Old 03-15-13, 11:03 AM
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http://www.htproducts.com/images/new...newsletter.pdf



Additionally you want floor mount right? Some you listed are wall mount only I believe.


I guess you cant count out the weil mclain gv 90+3.... Has a 7 pass design cast iron... The only thing is the push nipple thing... But I have installed 100's of mclains. But the model looks good IMO.... Only because of it being iron.. Theres nothing out there like it....$2400.


But its nice to have a boiler modulate if your spending the money....
 

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Old 03-15-13, 11:07 AM
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ooh, cool pdf! let me read it thru while my gigantic SQL query is running and i have to wait
 
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Old 03-15-13, 11:19 AM
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i read the pdf and see their point, however i feel like they might be a bit biased. maybe not. it conflicts with rbeck's statement as well.

gv 90+3 was on my list originally and would consider it too. but i couldn't really understand the design of it. it has two exchangers and another one is SS. it seemed to me that the primary exchanger is being fired upon. so does it condense on primary or on secondary exchanger? and does it modulate on primary or secondary? i'm not even sure if it qualifies for rebate as a mod/con it also have 2 recirc built in.

what is your take on GV90+? and i thought push nipple thing was a good thing?

edit: GV90+ does modulate - 1:3. price $1200 after rebate in MA
 
  #44  
Old 03-15-13, 12:10 PM
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what is your take on GV90+? and i thought push nipple thing was a good thing?
Weil mclain does not use push nipples. O rings. They had trouble with them way back when....

Its 65k btu doe...Smallest they make. Not sure why you want to size above your heat loss.

I dont see that it modulates.... It is cast iron and the water does 5 passes there. The stainless steel is a two pass. The water runs through there to capture the heat from the flue/vent. ( The exhuast vents through the SS part.) So 7 pass.

Unit comes with inhibitor. Must be in the below specs...

PH 7-8.5
Hardness 6gpg max
Chlorine 200 ppm max

Hmm not sure. Did you see the maintainance section??? Not sure if I like it really.......

What else are you considering?


 
  #45  
Old 03-15-13, 01:04 PM
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Peerless.

Cannot run vent in chimney with ajacent flues... So forget about using the fireplace.


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  #46  
Old 03-15-13, 01:10 PM
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it seems like it's hard to find a boiler with DOE output below 60. The options are limited and then some other criteria filter what is left behind.

slant/fin victory would be ideal if it were not for stupid venting requirements. i realize now that if i want a sealed combustion boiler it would have to be mod/con, so i could use PVC to vent.

let me ask this question. is oversizing mod/con as bad as oversizing regular boiler? if it's not grossly oversized and it could modulate down, wouldn't it compensate a bit?

if my heat loss 35k, do you think that Peerless PF-50 with DOE of 46K be big enough? 46K implies 92% efficiency, but i would like to use 85% since that what it's most likely will run at when it's not condensing, which would be 42K. Still more than my heat loss, but less then overall radiation (54K at 180F, 42K @ 160F)

with radiation larger than the boiler, i would have to have boiler protection in form of p/s piping of boiler bypass in place, wouldn't i? or is it good to have any way?

i'll have to go thru the selection process again with all this new information. this is becoming a long thread

edit: i will add wall mounts to the list too
 
  #47  
Old 03-15-13, 01:15 PM
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looking at the picture, i see exhaust pipe pointing straight up without a cap on it. what happens when it snows? we got 31" in one day a month ago here in MA

so in the second picture, can i terminate my precious fab piping at the chimney entrance and don't run it all the way out? i think not.
 
  #48  
Old 03-15-13, 01:37 PM
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Peerless.

Your baseboard dictates 50k btu max. You cant get more heat out of it. Why not consider the 50k model?????

Comes with outdoor sensor. System sensor and DHW sensor are options to purchase.

Dont see nothing about water quality.


http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Deskt...hod=attachment
 
  #49  
Old 03-15-13, 01:43 PM
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Peerless PF-50 does look good, lawrosa. i have to agree. need to read installation instructions for a bit more info..
 
  #50  
Old 03-15-13, 01:44 PM
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edit: i will add wall mounts to the list too
Well now you opened up a whole new selection....And better selection. Can you get to the chimney with a wall mount?

Remember the MA code says side wall venting needs to be 7 ft above ground level unless certain criteria is meet. I have not read through all details....( Guess they think you get 7ft snow drifts up there. )


 
  #51  
Old 03-15-13, 03:17 PM
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Guess they think you get 7ft snow drifts up there
Or maybe to keep the kids from 'huffing' the flue gas? I've often wondered about them kids from MA...
 
  #52  
Old 03-15-13, 05:11 PM
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you can see the boiler setup on this picture (disregard fiberglassed recirc):

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the spot where vent terminates into a wall is the spot where it enters chimney. i could potentially hang the boiler there.

alternatively i could run the vent up, in between joists, and thru the side wall outside. at that point it will be knee high off the ground and come out around the bulk head:

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with some turns still inside of the basement i can have it on the garage side of the bulkhead.

i would have to run it up to the mandatory height from there. will that work? will it be to ugly?

probably just better run it all the way thru the chimney. Looking at the chimney crwon(s):

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and from what i saw when i was looking for obstruction in the chimney from the basement/boiler room it seems that there are two separate sections in chimney - exhaust from boiler/DHW from the basement and fireplace from the first floor. so maybe i could utilize one for boiler (DHW will be IHW) and have another one for future use of fireplace if i decide to unplug it. will that work?

edit: another option that might be as good is to punch thru the wall into garage from the basement and then go up the garage roof.

i looked at peerless pf-50 a bit more and i do like it and it seems it might just be the right size. i will reexamine my heat calc to be sure. and when i go sealed combustion i could finish tightening of the house and bring my heat loss even more.
 
  #53  
Old 03-15-13, 05:25 PM
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and as for snow, we got some this year


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  #54  
Old 03-16-13, 07:08 AM
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You have a fireplace right? Why does it not work?

I probably would not run up the chimney myself. I would get the vent into the garage then run up through the roof or to the right side of the garage over the window.
 
  #55  
Old 03-16-13, 07:19 AM
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I copied and pasted this....




**Please read if installing in Massachusetts**

Massachusetts requires manufacturers of Side Wall
Vented boilers to provide the following information
from the Massachusetts code:

· A hard wired carbon monoxide detector with an
alarm and battery back-up must be installed on
the floor level where the gas equipment is to be
installed AND on each additional level of the
dwelling, building or structure served by the side
wall horizontal vented gas fueled equipment. · In the event that the side wall horizontally vented
gas fueled equipment is installed in a crawl space
or an attic, the hard wired carbon monoxide
detector with alarm and battery back-up may be
installed on the next adjacent floor level. · Detector(s) must be installed by qualified licensed
professionals. ·

APPROVED CARBON MONOXIDE
DETECTORS: Each carbon monoxide detector
shall comply with NFPA 720 and be ANSI/UL
2034 listed and IAS certified. · SIGNAGE: A metal or plastic identification plate
shall be permanently mounted to the exterior of
the building at a minimum height of eight (8) feet
above grade directly in line with the exhaust vent
terminal for the horizontally vented gas fueled
heating appliance or equipment. The sign shall
read, in print size no less than one-half (1/2) inch
in size, “GAS VENT DIRECTLY BELOW.
KEEP CLEAR OF ALL OBSTRUCTIONS”.

· EXEMPTIONS to the requirements listed above:
° The above requirements do not apply if the
exhaust vent termination is seven (7) feet or
more above finished grade in the area of the
venting, including but not limited to decks and
porches.

° The above requirements do not apply to a boiler installed in a room or structure separate from the dwelling, building or structure used in whole or in part for residential purposes. · This boiler installation manual shall remain with the boiler at the completion of the installation.
 
  #56  
Old 03-16-13, 07:43 AM
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  #57  
Old 03-16-13, 08:42 AM
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i plugged the fireplace. the damn thing sucks all the hot air when it's on or off. plus it's too much hassle to use anyway
 
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Old 03-16-13, 08:51 AM
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You plugged the flue????

I would only run up the chimney if the fireplace was actually removed......
 
  #59  
Old 03-16-13, 09:28 AM
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no, it's plugged from the actual fireplace side, top where i could reach from inside of the room. the rest of the flue is open. boiler seems to have a separate pass for itself in the chimney.

anyway, this will be done by a professional, i'm not going to do it myself. i was just wondering of the options.
 
  #60  
Old 03-16-13, 09:35 AM
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Cant run PVC in with another flue..( fireplace). If the fireplace is ever put in use it will melt the pvc.

I modified this drawing for you.


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Last edited by lawrosa; 03-16-13 at 10:15 AM.
  #61  
Old 03-16-13, 11:05 AM
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lawrosa,

as i mentioned before, i think fireplace has its own dedicated compartment in the chimney. for lack of better words so it should be ok. but then again, i will leave to professional. you're a few states away, maybe i will cal you

as for pictures, this is a alternative piping diagram from peerless pf-xx instruction manuals (figure 4.6), isn't it? you modification is zone valve instead of a zone circulator, right?

what made you chose the alternative piping instead of recommended one where IHW is piped as a parallel zone?

i like this piping as well since when heating season is over or when there is only IHW call the main system recirc is off and only IHW recirc is running.

man, i'm learning a lot here. few days ago i saw p/s piping and i was thinking - how can it possibly work? and now i think, how come it wasn't clear for me in first place!!!

also, i looks like some sites do call for Boston to be at 9F for design temp. some say it's 10F and some say it's 0F. peerless manual says it's 9F. my heat calc was done for 0F, so i have some cushion there.
 
  #62  
Old 03-16-13, 12:30 PM
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by the way, what is primary benefit of p/s piping in this case? all it guarantees here is that the flow thru the boiler is the same regardless if one or two zones a open. the flow in the zone loop will be different if one or two zones are open.

does it guarantee that return temperature to the boiler is constant? i would think not.

with IHW being on its own dedicated loop, will air separator still be effective? it looks like if IHW shutdowns system recir the water in IHW loop will never really mix with the rest of the system water.
 
  #63  
Old 03-16-13, 01:42 PM
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The indirect is better piped from the boiler instead of its own loop IMO. Possibly others can chime in .....

The boiler circ guarantees flow through the boiler. It will always run on call for heat or hot water.

The indirect has its own air vent.

My pic moved the circ from loop to after the exp tank.

The boiler may have a built in air vent too. I have to further study install guide.
 
  #64  
Old 03-16-13, 04:56 PM
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so what can go horribly wrong or be a less efficient with this piping:

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i have this layout without IHW for my regular cast iron boiler and it's been like that for 32 years.

there is one aspect of p/s piping that makes a lot of sense - boiler protection with a 3 way valve. but that's for cast iron.

individual flow control is nice, but is it that necessary?

with direct piping like that there is one fewer system element that can break down - an extra circ.
 
  #65  
Old 03-16-13, 05:20 PM
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The boiler circ guarantees flow through the boiler. It will always run on call for heat or hot water.
lawrosa, when only IHW calls for heat, would system recirc (general circulator on your pic) run? i would think only IHW would run since it's pumping thru the boiler.

the note on this picture from the instruction implies that it will be the only one running:

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just want to make sure i get this all right.

from this page

Primary/Secondary Piping

In drawing # 5 let's assume the boiler requires a minimum flow of 10 gpm. The indirect water heater requires a maximum of 6 gpm. The circulator for the boiler is sized for a 10 gpm flow, the indirect water heater has a circulator sized for a 6 gpm flow. With 4 gpm difference in flow you cannot pipe the indirect tank to the boiler piping. If you send too much water through the indirect coil you transfer less heat to the water in the tank. This slows down recovery of domestic hot water. The only time the indirect water heater may be piped off the boiler piping is when the flow through each are similar. Although the wiring is easier when the indirect is piped to the boiler piping it may not give good recovery in the indirect.
Drawing # 7 - Is another variation of drawing # 4. The difference here is if the flow through the boiler and indirect is similar you will not have to operate the primary circulator. This will save a little electricity and money.
 
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Old 03-16-13, 05:50 PM
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one of the reasons for p/s piping that i found is that modern mod/cons have exchangers with high resistance to flow. so having one circ to service the boiler and 1 to N open zones the same time might be a bit to much for the circ. or the flow thru the boiler would be too great.
 
  #67  
Old 03-16-13, 06:13 PM
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You need to maintain flow through the boiler. On a zoned system when all the zones may be open the flow may be reduced at the boiler. The circ only has a specific curve. Hence a boiler only circ... Dedicated circ in laymens terms.

yes the general circ will run.

Feed back is good so I hope others will reply here.... I dont want to be the sole advisor......

In #64 post piping with out the close space Tee your delta T is in question.... IMO 20f delta T is where you want to be....

Anyone????
 
  #68  
Old 03-16-13, 08:47 PM
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Note: There is a neutralizer with the boiler
Page 30-31.

http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Deskt...hod=attachment
 
  #69  
Old 03-17-13, 06:39 AM
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The optional DHW sensor (54157) and the optional system sensor (54156) $44 each.

Parts/price list


http://www.peerlessboilers.com/Deskt...hod=attachment
 
  #70  
Old 03-17-13, 07:59 AM
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I dont want to be the sole advisor......
How come? Yer doin' fine!

The reason 'high head' heat exchangers require a dedicated circ is as Mike sed, so that you always have the required flow through the boiler. MORE flow is not such a bad thing, but not likely to occur. LESS flow can damage the boiler.

With high head exchangers it's usually recommended by manf that this circ pumps INTO the boiler as shown.
 
  #71  
Old 03-17-13, 08:09 AM
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If you send too much water through the indirect coil you transfer less heat to the water in the tank. This slows down recovery of domestic hot water.
This statement from the post above (from the manual) seems to go against physics!

I don't understand it.

Think about it... let's say you are pumping 180° water through the indirect coil at 5 GPM and the return is 160°. How is any less heat going to be transferred if you are pumping 180° water at 10 GPM and returning at say 165°?

The radiating surface area of the heat exchanger inside is the same in either case. Logic dictates that pumping a higher GPM would INCREASE the recovery time because more of the heat exchanger is at a higher temperature ( i.e. the reduced delta T means a higher average temp across the length of the exchanger ) and therefore more heat transfer.

Same deal with a heating loop. Run a 'lazy flow' through the system and the water cools more as it runs the course. There is a lower AVERAGE temperature in the system, thus LESS heat transfer.

I'm 'calling' Peerless on that statement.
 
  #72  
Old 03-17-13, 08:13 AM
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NJ Trooper,

Thanks for chiming it. Yesterday after some more research I arrived at the same answer - high head for mod/con exchanger.

Lawrosa,

It seems that your instruction manual is from 2013 and mine was from 2011 even though it's the same 2nd revision.

Your manual also alludes that DHW recirc runs on itself without general recirc. I also found that when the flow rates thru IHW and thru the boiler are comparable it's ok to wire it that way.

Pump mode 0:

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I also read that high flow thru the IHW will result in less effective heat transfer. Which seems backwards, the faster the flow, the higher the temp will stay in the loop, the greater the difference in the temp with IHW the better the heat transfer. Unless boiler is not catching up, but that's not the case here.

On a different note, I just pumped in a gallon for Hydro-Solv 9100 into my system to fight the kettling. It was very painless process! i will share some details in a different thread and maybe it will help some one. i'm learning a lot here, so it will be my contribution
 
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  #73  
Old 03-17-13, 08:16 AM
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hey! you managed to post the same thing a minute before i did!
 
  #74  
Old 03-17-13, 08:44 AM
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Great minds... as they say Diver!
 
  #75  
Old 03-17-13, 09:09 AM
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On a different note, I just pumped in a gallon for Hydro-Solv 9100 into my system to fight the kettling
Glad you got that sorted out and finally into the system. I'm curious to know the results you get. Keep it in there for a while to take advantage of the heat.
 
  #76  
Old 03-17-13, 09:13 AM
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Your manual also alludes that DHW recirc runs on itself without general recirc.
The CH pump and the DHW pump will never be on at the same time.

The general pump always runs when the burner fires period.......


 
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Old 03-17-13, 10:32 AM
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After further review I would suggest to nix the peerless indirect. Perhaps trooper can comment.

I believe a superstore is better matched to your boiler BTU. I ran through the specs.

It would be the glass lined version. The ssc 35 should be plenty.


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SuperStor Contender Glass Lined Indirect Water Heater - HTP
 
  #78  
Old 03-17-13, 10:44 AM
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  #79  
Old 03-17-13, 10:57 AM
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Dont forget a Y strainer at the water feed.


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It says on the return..... Hmm..I would make sure you flush the heating loops before install.

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  #80  
Old 03-17-13, 11:06 AM
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it looks almost like a perfect match for the boiler output! thanks a lot for digging this out. and $660 is very cheap compared with others. with a $400 MA rebate, it's $260!

Peerless instruction specify two modes for IHW control: temp sensor an thermostat:

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which one is better and how can i figure out which one i can use for SuperStor Contender?
 
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