[long! read only if you're bored/have time] mod/con boiler if i don't want one

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Old 03-13-13, 08:13 AM
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Question [long! read only if you're bored/have time] mod/con boiler if i don't want one

Being a practical guy I am I decided a year ago or so to figure out what boiler I would buy if I need one in case my 32 yo boiler goes.

At that point I decided that mod/cons are not for me. Bad ROI is the short answer why. I settled my choice on Burnham ESC-3 60 ,000 BTU Output with sealed combustion, which is priced at $2136.

I was happy with my choice, but decided to revisit my choice this year. To my surprise Taxachussetts no longer offers a rebate for non-condensing boilers with AFUE of 85%+ - it has to be over 90% or over 95%. Iím actually unaware of existence of such boilers, but please correct me if Iím wrong.

Rebates for condensing boilers are $1200 for any condensing boiler with efficiency over 90%. So with $1200 rebate now there are several mod/com boilers that are cheaper than Burnham ESC-3 so I decided to take a look and maybe reconsider my stance on mod/cons. I came up with a short list of 3 boilers:

1. $2412 ($1212 after rebate), Weil Mclain GV90+3 56,000 BTU Output
2. $2831 ($1631 after rebate), Peerless PF-80 - 63,000 BTU Output
3. $2990 ($1790 after rebate), Weil Mclain Ultra 80 - 62,000 BTU Output

Another boiler on the list was $3266 ($2066 after rebate), Lochinvar KBN081 63,000 BTU Output, but it doesnít seem to be very different from Ultra when it comes to feature/specs, so I dropped it out.

I like GV90+ for these reasons:

- Cast iron primary exchange with wide waterways
- Very reasonable price

I donít like GV90+ for this:

- Does it even qualify to be a condensing boiler? The primary exchanger is cast iron, so does it mean that only secondary will be used for condensing? Iím not sure how it works and from some of the PDFs it wasnít clear for me either.
- It doesnít have DHW priority support, so IHW recirc would have to be wired to shut off zone recirc.

Peerless and Ultra have a lot of common features and have many that GV90+ doesnít have:

- DHW priority
- Built in neutralizer
- ODR

Peerless has stainless steel exchanger and 3:1 modulation.
Ultra has cast aluminum exchanger and 5:1 modulation.

Both of them are more sensitive to water quality than GV90+. My water is very soft (40 ppm Ca harndess, which is less than 2.5 grain) and itís PH neutral Ė 7.4, which is right in the middle of the cast aluminum PH range (6.5-8.5), but well below stainless steel one (8.2-9.5), so I think Ultra is a better choice for me with only $150 premium compared to Peerless.

So it bring me to three choices:

1. Expensive, but reliable Burnham ESC-3.
2. Very cheap GV90+ with fewer features.
3. Reasonable priced, much cooler and more delicate Ultra.

I feel that in a long run ESC-3 will be cheaper to run and probably cheaper to install. Saving in fuel due to efficiency of the mod/con will be minimal and take forever to recoup, but installation/maintenance cost might add up. So rational me says I should go with ESC-3. A guy who wants a cooler toy say Ultra

If someone can chime in on my thought process and point places where I possibly have gone wrong Iíd appreciate it. If anyone can share their experience with this particular boilers, that would be great.

Lawrosa, it seems that you might have had GV90+ in the past (that what searched return for GV90+) so Iíd appreciate your opinion on it.

edit: i removed primary/secondary loop configuration point for GV90+ since it seems it's applicable to any type of boiler.
 

Last edited by _Diver; 03-13-13 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 03-13-13, 07:51 PM
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Consumers viewpoint

Like you, I have analyzed boiler replacement from every angle. Mod-con boilers do not have a good rate of ROI. I think the ROI should be 6 years or less.
My payback period would be 10 - 15 years. My local utility (southeast Wisconsin) had an online tool to analyze boiler replacement. I input my data and the answer was "not economically feasible" to buy a mod-con boiler.

At one point I thought I would wait until the new rules went into effect in May that require high efficiency boilers in the northern part of the country. That would have eliminated the ROI issue. However, it seems like that is now delayed.

Personally, I would stay away from cast aluminum or any boiler that is sensitive to water chemistry. I also believe any computer controlled boiler will fail because the person writing the software will not be able to imagine every situation or condition that will occur. Condensate disposal also seems like a hassle. Finally, there is a potential for higher maintenance costs.

Where does the $1200.00 come from? Where I live the rebate is only $400.00. Who is paying for all these rebates? Answer: You and me.
 
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Old 03-14-13, 06:03 AM
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i understand the notion of "free" money i'm being taxed in MA till my eyeballs bleed, so letting that money go to someone else just aggravates the situation even worse
 
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Old 03-14-13, 06:30 AM
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What type of heat emmitters do you have?
Are you over radiated?
Did you do a heat lose calc? 60,k is pretty big.......

Not a fan of any WM cast products. My resoning is O rings to seal the sections. Brands like burnham, slant fin, hyrotherm use push nipples. ( My hydrotherm is probably close to 40 years old and still kicking)

Peerless I will take a look at. I just replace a 29 year old peerless. Only because it was under water from Sandy....

Ultra????? If your going to go aluminum exchanger I would go with a different brand.
 
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Old 03-14-13, 07:12 AM
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As far as mod cons I like the Lochinvar myself....the whn 55 has a turn down ratio of 11k btu's. Plus its of fire tube design I believe like Triangle tube... But probably pricey..$$$$$

http://www.lochinvar.com/_linefiles/WHN-02.pdf


Upon my research I turned up a Utica from installing a few after sandy. Probably people may down play this unit but I was very interested when I read the specs. Its probably significantly cheaper then the loch but I have not checked pricing. same tub design and turn down to 10k

http://www.ecrinternational.com/secu...ument/2946.pdf


I do know that a cast utica can be had for around $1200 bucks. They do not show on thier site but they have a new UB series with this honeywell control. This is just an example. Push nipples ect. The 75k version of the UB was $1200 out the door price.


http://www.ecrinternational.com/secu...ument/2674.pdf


Then again I do like the slant fin, These are around $1800 I believe starting. Prices have risen since sandy. The s34 I remember was $900 online last year. Additionally the controls on this boiler are Hydrostat... Reads off your t stat, which is better then ODR IMO...One of the better controls out there....

http://slantfin.com/images/stories/P..._s_10.pdf .pdf
 
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Old 03-14-13, 07:34 AM
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What type of heat emmitters do you have?
Slantfin baseboards. 2 zones, 54KBTU overall emitters @ 180F, 42KBTU @160F

Are you over radiated?
As compared to heat loss or boiler size? But I donít believe so either way. Part of the emitters are covered with foil on the second floor to balance out a cold room.

Did you do a heat lose calc? 60,k is pretty big.......
Yes. 34.7K BTU at 9F design temp. 2 story home, 1900 sq ft of heated area. Relatively tight and it will be even more so when I go sealed combustion. My current boiler is 32 yo cast iron 100kbut input, probably about 65-70kbtu output. I planned on getting IHW with a new setup. The boilers I looked at (ESC3 for example) donít come smaller than 60kbtu.

The only one on my list that comes in smaller size is Peerless PF-50 - 40,000 BTU Output which has a 46KBUT DOE output. However this is at its high end of efficiency. In the middle of the winter when itís cold out and itís not condensing much, it will probably run at about 85% AFUE which will be about 42.5K. A drop of efficiency due to aging/sediment/anything else, will drop that number a bit lower as well. While itís still above my heat loss (provided all my assumptions during the calculations were correct) it is a bit close to comfort. Plus I will have an IHW. I know one shouldnít size a boiler to an IHW or size of emitters, but I want to keep them in mind when I make a decision regarding the size.

Do you think PF-50 might be big enough for me? Iím definitely open to a discussion and learning.

Not a fan of any WM cast products. My resoning is O rings to seal the sections. Brands like burnham, slant fin, hyrotherm use push nipples. ( My hydrotherm is probably close to 40 years old and still kicking)

Peerless I will take a look at. I just replace a 29 year old peerless. Only because it was under water from Sandy....
Lawrosa, Peerless has a stainless steel exchange which is more sensitive to water quality and like the water about 8.2pH. My water is 7.4pH. Plus it modulate 1:3 and others are at 1:5. Might not be a big deal, but from what I read it seems that cast aluminum will last longer. I might be wrong.

Ultra????? If your going to go aluminum exchanger I would go with a different brand.
Can you suggest a model that I should look at?
 
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Old 03-14-13, 07:40 AM
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Lawrosa,

Thanks for the links, I will go thru them and do my research.
 
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Old 03-14-13, 07:50 AM
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Yes. 34.7K BTU at 9F design temp.
You sure your at 9f... Im 10F but I put 0f in the calc...

1900 sq ft = 47,500k if you times it by 25 btu per sq ft.. ( Which is pretty close to the calculator)

I would say your baseboard is sized to your heat loss.

So my calc says you have about 100 ft of baseboard element only????
 
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Old 03-14-13, 08:43 AM
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Yes. 34.7K BTU at 9F design temp.
You sure your at 9f... Im 10F but I put 0f in the calc...

1900 sq ft = 47,500k if you times it by 25 btu per sq ft.. ( Which is pretty close to the calculator)

I would say your baseboard is sized to your heat loss.

So my calc says you have about 100 ft of baseboard element only????
Iím sorry, youíre correct, itís at 0F design temp. I have 52í of elements on 2nd floor (this is fins only) and since the first floor is practically the same layout I would say itís about the same number for 1st floor. I have actual measurements for the 2nd floor, thatís why I mentioned it specifically.
 
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Old 03-14-13, 08:48 AM
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Lawrosa,

Thanks for providing the links and suggestions for the boilers. I took a look and here are my thoughts.

Lochinvar WHN is all mount only. I do have a wall that I can mount to, but with the piping I have currently for my floor mounted boiler I think it would be either to stick with floor mounts.

Utica SSC is wall mount only.

Utica MGB II / MGC is non condensing and for that class of boilers I made my choice on Burnham ESC3. Itís the mod/con choice Iím struggling with. Or actually just with idea if I should consider mod/con.

SlantFin Sentry is atmospheric and I want sealed combustions. My chimney draft is marginal due to my tightening efforts already.
 
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Old 03-14-13, 10:34 AM
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Well sealed combustion takes air from outside.... Power vent or induced draft on some models can be piped with internal air or outside... There is a difference and how you want to pipe it.

I was showing regular atmospheric because of price.....


Im not a fan of the ES2... I will need to look at the ES3.... I know you have to line the chimney on the es2... Does not take pvc...
 
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Old 03-14-13, 10:51 AM
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ESC 3 is oversize IMO... Its 60k DOE.... You got 34k on your heat loss. If so and its true then you are over radiated and will benefit from lower boiler temps. Example you may need only 150f water max temp to heat your home at 0f desighn temp.

Are you sizing to your 100 ft of base board??? Thats 55k btu....

You need to get your heat lose right first before you pick anything.


I have a post when I did my heat lose. I ran 150f boiler water all winter. I have 45k btu of base board but only need 27k out of it on the coldest day of the year.
 
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Old 03-14-13, 10:56 AM
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And why spend $3k on the esc3 at 85% eff boiler? Does not make sense....
 
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Old 03-14-13, 12:52 PM
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ESC3 is $2100, not 3k. any con/mod will run about the same 85% AFUE for majority of the time. i think it's really bad advertisement when high efficiency boilers are shown with 90+ AFUE efficiency and no mentioning that it's highest achievable efficiency and not running all the time one.

looking at this chart:

Name:  CondensingChart.jpg
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it's clear that claimed efficiency is a big stretch. the boiler would have to be deep in a condensing range and if it's properly sized it wouldn't be there for majority of the winter. and 85% looks pretty good according to this chart.

but let's pretend that i can run a mod/com at 95% at the time. this would save me only $80 per year!

i look at ESC3 having higher start up cost without any rebates compared to mod/com with a rebate as an investment. since in a long run it will save me money on maintenance and most likely will run for many more years compared with more sensitive mod/com boiler. installation will probably cost less as well and piping will be simpler.

as i mentioned before mod/cons have horrible ROI, the only reason i even consider some of them is because now they are "cheaper" than some of the regular boilers due to rebates.

esc has a set point setting so it would be possible to run it colder. it can take the return temperature down to 110f. it will not condense (i hope) so it won't extract all that latent energy, but will run a bit more efficient, close to 87%.

as for size, I kinda agree with you, i wish there was esc2, but there is no such thing. seems like some mod/cons have smaller versions, so that's an option and that's one of the reasons i explore the possibility of a mod/con.

p.s. - i'm a newbie trying to educate myself on this subject and i know you are very experienced guy when it come to this industry. so please don't take me arguing with you the wrong way. i just want to get my answers
 
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Old 03-14-13, 01:10 PM
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Lawrosa, since you like Slantfin, can i ask you for your opinion on

VSPH-60 - Slant/Fin VSPH-60 - Victory VSPH - 45,000 BTU Output Direct Vent Hot Water Boiler

?

edit: DOE is 52kbtu so it seems perfect size... should be ok with IHW as well, right?
 
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Old 03-14-13, 01:12 PM
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Well your right on Diver.... Your doing your homework well....


Why cant you run up the chimney? Liner? You probably still need to line regardless. Unless you do a PVC model......

I still always go back to slant fin sentry or the Burnham series 2.

The only benifit I see with the esc models is the ability to install ODR module and LWCO. That may be the selling point.

But I know troop has condensation issues with his MPO that supposed to accept 110f water.... But I believe his is flue related.....
 
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Old 03-14-13, 01:34 PM
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Lawrosa,

I did a good job tightening my house now I have a marginal chimney draft so I want to move away from atmospheric exhaust and go with sealed combustion. So no sentry or series 2 for me, but before i arrived at that my top choice was series 2!

I've read few pdfs on Slant/Fin Victory VSPH-60 and I like what I've read so far! It seems to be very basic but reliable design, a one that i would hope last for long time. I like the size a lot and overal simplicity. I liked the ability of Burnham boilers to be further customized with multiple options on one hand, but on another a simple Slant/Fin Victory will remove the temptation to buy expensive additional options and tinker with it a lot for me And it may or may not be a good thing

To be honest I'm happy with my very old cast iron boiler. Aside from kettling that I'm gonna try to address this weekend, its only drawback is atmospheric exhaust. And it's very inefficient too, but my heating bill is around $150 during the coldest MA months, so it's not a biggie.

it looks like victory has a condensation drain (not from exchange, but from the exhaust pipe), does it need a pump to remove it?
 
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Old 03-14-13, 02:07 PM
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Looking at that efficiency chart you posted, the rebates available in MA for sundries like ODR and other controls (I'm also in MA and was looking ealier), your fuel consumption (just over a gallon daily?) and my similar thoughts awhile back I'd go for the simple ESC. I have one that's exceeded expectations for the past two years. It's been trouble free after some installation glitches. Your payback with anything else would be extraordinary. If you buy the system online, there are cashback sites that will reduce the cost some, typically 5%. I've done that for a place in NY.

PM me of you want some operating cost numbers comparing to oil.
 
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Old 03-14-13, 02:10 PM
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The vsp slant fin needs to pipe with heat fab type piping. Big bucks you know right?????

Yes needs a pump for the flue condensation....


Here you go. 45k DOE vents 2" pvc/cpvc...90% eff... ( Cast aluminum heat exchanger... How you feel about that?)


http://www.ecrinternational.com/secu...ument/2862.pdf
 
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Old 03-14-13, 03:20 PM
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One thing I find people down play with mod cons is the modulation aspect of it.

It's great to condense, but it's equally effective to modulate to match the load.

There is no conventional boiler that can modulate as does a mod con.

To address one thing I read...
The control, you might have been somewhat correct when you brought up the control and the software with early gen units.
Today the controls are pretty tough, Honeywell has the latest control out called the sola. It's darn good, and there should be no surprises that have not been dealt with. I like 3rd party control systems over OEM stuff. Honeywell sells a lot of combustion controls to manufacterers. And combustion controls have been around a long time, they go back into the 80's before Mod cons.

I think anyone looking for a mod-con should look real closely at the Triangletube Challanger boiler (heat or combi). I have seen them made, and talked with several at the factory. I have installed a bunch and (after some tedious issues) they have been very well behaved boilers.
The package is great, quiet and I would say pretty indestructable (with in reason of course).
 
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Old 03-14-13, 03:29 PM
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TO while you on here, the reason I lean towards slant fin is their controls... I know honeywell is great, but whats your opinion here. It does thermal targeting, ODR....etc..


http://www.hydrolevel.com/new/images...ales_sheet.pdf


Hydrolevel.com
 
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Old 03-14-13, 06:31 PM
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For higher fuel savings you won't to eliminate the chimney vented products and block off that constant heat thief.
The ESC is sealed combustion so all air for combustion from outside so no pressure drop in home while firing the boiler.
The control you linked to is almost like the ESC control except it offers "Enhanced Condensing Protection Ė To reduce the potential for condensing, on a call for heat, this feature allows the boiler to heat to 125įF prior to energizing the circulator. Once activated, the control continues to monitor boiler temperature and interrupts the circulator if it drops below 115įF". This is not a great thing for cast iron boilers. Stress comes from quick temperature changes. Heat the boiler up, start the pump, boiler cools stop the pump. Heat the boiler up start the pump, water cools turn it off. It will eventually stay on but not great for cast iron boilers to star and stop when experiencing cool return water.
Them ESC as two heat or heat and IWH input and two pumps. Priority for DHW and even priority protection if using for DHW, even pre-purge & post purge for the circulator, all on the base control. Than add ODR for added savings.
 
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Old 03-15-13, 07:34 AM
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The vsp slant fin needs to pipe with heat fab type piping. Big bucks you know right????
lawrosa, can you elaborate on this? i have no idea what heat fab type piping is.

Yes needs a pump for the flue condensation....
this is not condensing boiler, so it's just for flue condensation. is that much that it requires pumping away? i didn't see it on any other boilers. and for slant fin it's a simple pvc pipe coiled up, but no pan or anything like that.
 
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Old 03-15-13, 07:52 AM
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Heat Fab piping is AL29-4C...
This means basically it is 3" stainless steel gasketed vent piping..
This equals $$$$$$$ in installed cost.

compared to 3" PVC pipe.. it's just darn nasty priced.

That controls is nice LWCO and boiler control in one package.
I's assuming they look at the on / off cycle of the stat to see it's run time and adjust the boiler water temp to keep it on longer. Which at the end of the day is all we want to do.

I think it would be a great product for a DIYer, as there is no heat curves to set up. Heck I see "Professional" boiler installers leave the CH target at 180 (default) on some of the boilers I have serviced. Why you ask, simply it is either too much trouble to change, they don't know how to change it, or (and I consider this the worst) they leave it high so that they don't have any "not enough heat" call backs.
Educate the homeowner as to why we drive down water temps and then they will not call you back to complain :-) they will call back to thank you for saving them $$$$$...

(rant over)
 
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Old 03-15-13, 08:02 AM
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lawrosa, can you elaborate on this? i have no idea what heat fab type piping is.
 
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Old 03-15-13, 08:05 AM
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i assume this is it:

Name:  fab.jpg
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what is the magnitude of $$$$? enough to avoid this boiler? why can't they just use PVC like everybody else?
 
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Old 03-15-13, 08:09 AM
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yeah, that looks a bit pricey!

i kinda feel like i'm gonna stick with esc3 and satisfy my inner nerd

thanks for all the contribution on this thread, as always i learn a lot here.
 
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Old 03-15-13, 08:09 AM
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why can't they just use PVC like everybody else?
The flue temps are too great I believe. Where are you planning to vent??? Out a side wall?????


 
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Old 03-15-13, 08:24 AM
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i think i have several options, but i didn't explore them much. the side wall vent might be close to a window. i was also wondering if i could have intake/venting pipe go up the chimney. the chimney will not be functional, so i could probably use it for this purpose only.

right now i have atmospheric boiler and DHW venting thru the chimney. someone on this forum called it a chase and not a chimney.

i also have a fireplace, but it might or might not have a separate section in that chimney for its own use. but the fireplace is not functional either, so it shouldn't be a big deal. if i have an option to use that chimney for fireplace in the future it would be nice, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker. unless wife says no
 
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Old 03-15-13, 08:32 AM
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Is it tile lined???

Like I said you will need to line the chimney with these models, but really with any new boiler you should put in a liner.

That why getting it out a side wall is best, as well as PVC.

Too bad you dont want to mount on the wall.... Most mod/cons make the same units in floor standing models too.

It would be easy and cheaper just to install an atmospheric like the slantfin s34. I saw online for $1100. Reline chimney....done...

But you said the room is sealed???? Combustion air?
 
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Old 03-15-13, 08:40 AM
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the entire house is tight, that's one of the problems. the other problem - i don't want to vent warm house air outside, it's just a waste.

if i use PVC for venting for boilers that support it, i can go thru the chimney, it wouldn't have to be lined, correct?

i looked at the wall mounted mod/cons that could be floor standing. but now more and more i think i'll stick with a regular boiler.

i like slant/fin, but the whole heat fab thing is a huge let down. it seems that venting itself can easily be a grand. just doesn't make sense financially.
 
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Old 03-15-13, 08:46 AM
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cr*p, ESC also requires AL29-4C!
 
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Old 03-15-13, 09:13 AM
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if i use PVC for venting for boilers that support it, i can go thru the chimney, it wouldn't have to be lined, correct?


Yes


You have restrictions in MA for side wall venting. Read the beginning of any manual......


Special Installation Requirements for Massachusetts
A. For all side wall horizontally vented gas fueled equipment installed in every dwelling, building or structure used in
whole or in part for residential purposes and where the side wall exhaust vent termination is less than seven (7)
feet above grade, the following requirements shall be satisfied
:

Etc........................................


 
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Old 03-15-13, 09:18 AM
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cr*p, ESC also requires AL29-4C!


What page is that on?


I believe your hard pressed to find something with PVC, no? Or line the chimney and go atmospheric.....????

What do you think? Frustrating huh??????
 
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Old 03-15-13, 09:19 AM
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TOHeating,

The smallest Triangle Tube Challenger is 75KBTU output, which is too big for me.
 
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Old 03-15-13, 09:22 AM
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Additionally what are you going to do with your water heater? I assume you are going indirect?
 
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Old 03-15-13, 09:24 AM
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ESC venting:

Name:  vent.jpg
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it is frustrating. it looks like all non condensing ones have this requirement since the flue gases are too hot? my 32 yo atmospheric boiler probably has the same problem, but it uses regular galvanized pipe up to the chimney, but i bet the code was different back then.

i assume it would be ok to use fab piping to the chimney and then i would have to line the chimney with tile(?) ? or is it a no-no?

the whole fab piping threw a monkey wrench in my selection process

but at least during this thread i learned two things that i didn't know:

- primary/secondary piping
- AL29-4C requirements for venting

so there is some positive to this frustration.

yes on IHW for domestic water. once the boiler goes, i go IHW.
 
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Old 03-15-13, 10:15 AM
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Well since wall mount is out right?

I say we go back to the UB 100 Utica... 50K vents with 2" pvc...90% eff. Price????? Does not have turn down ration. Burner on or off.


UB90-100 Condensing Boiler-2012 DOE Compliant For Sale at Utica Boilers

Couple that with say a 30 gal indirect.... First hour rating will be 1/2 of what is stated. Ratings based on 116k btu boiler...Your only getting a 50k boiler.... You will say, get 80 gal an hour rating. Thats 30 gallons every 20 minutes.


H2O Single Coil Stainless Steel Indirect Water Heaters For Sale at Utica Boilers




Or I see the peerless. 16k min 50 k max. $2800, 93.3%

Peerlessģ PUREFIREģ

Indirect. Same ratings as above more or less. Lets just say if you go to a 40 gal it will act like a regular water heater in terms of recovery. Since regular water heaters typically have a 40k burner..... $1200

Peerlessģ Partnerģ
 
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Old 03-15-13, 10:35 AM
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Oh utica cast aluminum. peerless Stainless steel

I would go SS...... Aluminum you must maintain water quality with inhibiters IMO.... Its fine but need to test water at least yearly.

This is normally shipped with the weil mclain ultras I have installed.

X100 Inhibitor | Liquids | Central Heating | Sentinel central heating products.




SS take PH variables better from what I know.
 
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Old 03-15-13, 10:49 AM
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lawrosa, i thought that SS is more susceptible to water quality? from this post by rbeck:

Cast Aluminum
Ph 6.5 - 8.5
< 2500 ppm dissolved solids
Hardness <7 grains

Stainless Steel
Ph 8.2 - 9.5
< 2500 ppm dissolved solids
Hardness 3 - 9 grains

Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...#ixzz2NdDTv9jL

my pH is 7.4 and low hardness. i can't find a consensus on aluminum vs SS on this forum, so i'm not sure what to stay away from.

i do have peerless on my review list, but pf-80, not pf-50. i think pf-50 is pushing a little bit too much on output side.

so right now, i'm looking thru specs for:

Triangle Tube Prestige Solo 60 - edit. scratch this, wall mount only
Burnham Alpine 63,000 BTU Output
Burnham Freedom, 55,000 BTU Output

and i will look at utica you suggested. i've been going off by the list on pexsupply.com, but it looks like it doesn't have some of the boiler brands.
 
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