PSI gradually creeps over 30 over a period of 2 - 3 days - overhead 15 gal expan

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  #41  
Old 04-01-13, 07:33 AM
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I am working on the assumption that the handwheel is rotted in the open position ( hence the slow leak and anthill under it)
Are you sure that leak is coming from that supply valve?

Take a look UP, at the brass thingy with the 'snout' on it... a "SpiroVent" automatic air valve. See the green corroded pipe and fitting on the right side of that part. Are you sure that the leak is not from that part and dripping down onto the other?
 
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  #42  
Old 04-01-13, 10:19 AM
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fairly positive .. there are beads of water on the top portion of that valve under the handle ... the "spirovent"(?) thingy up above is dry as a bone since I put in the pump .. other than some light hissing on/offf which I assume is it bleeding air(?) from the system ... but I will double check tomorrow as I wait for the plumber
 
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Old 04-01-13, 03:18 PM
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OK... please keep us posted on the progress!

One thing to mention though:

When a HEATING pipe leaks, depending on the severity of the leak, you may well never see any water at all, only the mineral residue left behind when that water evaporates. Remember, those pipes are hot! A slow leak won't leave liquid evidence for very long, if at all!

That fitting at the SpiroVent is almost certainly leaking.

"right side of the air separator" ... I have no idea what you are seeing or what an air separator is so i guess a little more help would be great here
By the way, just in case it's not clear, the SpiroVent, the 'thingy with the snout' on the supply pipe is an automatic air separator. It's job is to catch the air entrained in the water flow and vent it to atmosphere.
 
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Old 04-01-13, 03:24 PM
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other than some light hissing on/offf which I assume is it bleeding air(?) from the system
I assume so also... but with a conventional tank such as you have, this should not be allowed.

Unfortunately, the way that system is set up, the air that is supposed to go BACK TO THE TANK will never do so. It will just travel around the system and make noise. That's I'm sure why the SpiroVent was installed. Someone put a 'band-aid' on a fundamental piping error.

A system with a conventional tank must have the tank connected to a device that will actively collect the air in the system and route it back to the tank where it belongs.

I think in this case, you would be better off to abandon the old tank, install a bladder tank PROPERLY SIZED FOR THE WATER VOLUME IN THE SYSTEM to the bottom of the SpiroVent. There's a plug in the bottom for this exact purpose.

Something to consider for future... (and after reading your previous replies, I see that is already your plan!)
 

Last edited by NJT; 04-01-13 at 03:42 PM.
  #45  
Old 04-01-13, 03:42 PM
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Duke, I'm sorry that when I wrote the previous replies I did not see your replies from earlier today... I just went back and read them all.

Understand on everything, you are on the right track.

As for the leaking solder joints, I can pass along a few tips:

1. The pipes must be COMPLETELY BONE DRY! One little drop of water will cause a soldered joint to leak.

2. CLEAN AND SHINY can not be over-stressed.

3. The 'blue can' propane torches are fine for pipe sizes up to 3/4". Using one on 1" pipe requires extra skill. It's almost impossible to get enough heat into the area you need it to be FAST ENOUGH to get in, solder and get out again, without overheating the material and causing problems with oxidation preventing a good clean solder joint. The bigger fittings and pipe 'sink' the heat away faster than the torch can supply it.

buying an old house and if it had all been perfect, my daughter wouldn't have afforded to buy it
HA! Don't I know that story well! This is the ONLY reason I own a home today!
 
  #46  
Old 04-02-13, 10:52 AM
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ok, I did use the "bue can" propane .. something to remember ... was waiting for the plumber this morning, I had made the appointment last Thursday and told them what I needed .. the dispatcher called to say the tech was on his way and wanted to know what the shutoff valve controlled ... I said it was the water feed for the baseboard furnace system, was put on hold and she came back and said "we don't work on furnaces" .. I made it plain I didn't want them to workon the furnace, just cutout and replace a 14 inch section of piping and after a few apologizes for not being able to help, we hung up .. so did my drain and fill and bleeding so I know we're good until Saturday and am thinking it's really not that early for a drink .. though I know I can take care of it, my hope had been, since I have to shut off all the water to the house, that a professional plumber could do it in a quarter of the time so my daughter and grandkids would have minimum disruption .. on the bright side, I have my weekend planned out now .. will let you know how it goes ... thanks for everything and I have a few questions I'll be posting based on some of the things you pointed out an some things I haven't figured out yet .. later
 
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Old 04-02-13, 11:46 AM
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Duke, have you considered using a 'sharkbite' valve as a replacement?

22185-0000LF - Cash-Acme 22185-0000LF - 3/4" SharkBite Ball Valve (Lead Free)
 
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Old 04-02-13, 12:51 PM
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actually that's what I was thinking .. though I hadn't heard them called sharkbite .. "quick connect" is what I heard .. but I am hoping to cut out the old one at the same time and that end is galvanized and I'm not sure if there is a connector that will work with galvanized
 
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Old 04-02-13, 01:28 PM
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I don't believe they work on galvanized...

They DO make models with one threaded end and one sharkbite end.
 
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Old 04-08-13, 07:02 AM
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well ended up babysitting instead so didn't have time to do anymore than drain tank completely, got 8 PSI and added water back to line ... am hoping for Wednesday now .. but I did have time to write down some questions I have, if anyone has time to answer .. so here they are ;

What is the rusty reddish thing at the T (where it goes left to the tank and right to the lines) with a lever on top

What is the lever for?

you mentioned "Air bladder" ? is that the propane tank looking thing that replaces the expansion tank and is that what can be attached to the bottom of the spiral air relief thingy?

Automatic air relief valve .. where should it be located

Automatic water fill valve? Is there such a thing and is it worth adding when I redo system

Taco pump has 3 speeds – low, med, hi … guy at menards said they were to help control something, but didn’t really understand what .. any idea why I would want to change the speed of the pump?

How do you know you have enough water in the system?

When I use the bleeder valve on the return line ( the one with the “crud” on it that I installed) I can hear the water flow change in the pipes .. when I open it, there is a rush of water going through, when closed the sound goes down to a trickle ….
Also, with same valve, I will get hissing and spitting and then it could go maybe 5 minutes with no water, no noise, while open .. still too much air in the line?
 
  #51  
Old 04-08-13, 04:52 PM
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What is the rusty reddish thing at the T (where it goes left to the tank and right to the lines) with a lever on top? What is the lever for?
That is a 'flow control valve', aka 'check valve'. It will only allow flow when the pump is running and in only one direction... UP... there is a weighted disk inside the valve that is pushed up when the pump runs. It's purpose is to stop the system from 'thermosiphoning'... aka 'gravity' or 'ghost' flow. Because hot water is lighter than cold, the hot water will float up the pipe and continue to heat the house with the residual hot water in the boiler. The handle is to manually open the valve in certain circumstances.

you mentioned "Air bladder" ? is that the propane tank looking thing that replaces the expansion tank and is that what can be attached to the bottom of the spiral air relief thingy?
Yes. But not 'air bladder'. Those tanks are more correctly called 'bladder type' or 'diaphragm type', which are actually two different physical arrangements inside the tank, but both look the same and serve the same purpose.

Automatic air relief valve .. where should it be located
Let's not call it a 'relief valve' because that can be confused with the 'PRESSURE relief valve'. Let's call it 'automatic air vent' instead. You already have an automatic air vent. That's your SPIROVENT valve mentioned above.

Automatic water fill valve? Is there such a thing and is it worth adding when I redo system
Yes there is such a thing. It's basically a 12 PSI regulator that only adds water when the system goes below 12 PSI. Worth adding? I would think so, makes life easier... if you do add one, you should also add a BACKFLOW PREVENTER as I believe we've already discussed?

Taco pump has 3 speeds – low, med, hi … guy at menards said they were to help control something, but didn’t really understand what .. any idea why I would want to change the speed of the pump?
Pump speed would be adjusted for the proper flow in the system. Usually medium is just fine. Most systems don't need a 3 speed pump. Taco 007 single speed is just fine.

How do you know you have enough water in the system?
If the pressure on a COLD boiler is 12-15 PSI and you don't have air gurgling through the system, there is enough water. The system is supposed to be FULL of water, 100%, so what you are really asking is "How do you know if there is enough PRESSURE in the system?" and your gauge will tell you that.

I will get hissing and spitting and then it could go maybe 5 minutes with no water, no noise, while open .. still too much air in the line?
I suspect that you have a system that is still full of AIR and not enough water... but this could be due to the fact that there is not enough PRESSURE in the system.
 
  #52  
Old 05-03-13, 11:31 AM
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afternoon .. and I'd like to apologize for not getting back earlier .. with all the help and time you've saved me I should have given you the "end of the story" a while ago ... so I had the plumber come in to give me an estimate to just replace that ballcock shutoff to the furnace .. he started looking around at my Patched shutoffs, the expansion tank, the spiral air thingy where the pipe was all green, etc and he said "what about all this?" and made a sweeping gesture with his hands .. an embarassing moment for sure ..I said to give me the price of the shutoff only first and we'd work from there .. so, bottom line was $380 to replace 14 inches of pipe and the shutoff to the furnace ... $1000 and he would take care of everything and I buckled like a house of cards ... so when he left I had all those pieces you said I should put in come fall when I went back down ... has shutoff before and after a valve that restricts the flow so the furnace water can't go back to the main line ( forgot what he called it but he said it was required by MN law) with an automatic fill valve with the PSI set for 12 ... he put in the new air bladder tank and attached to the bottom of the spiral thing, replaced 6 feet of lines and my shutoffs going to the 2 different sections of the house, removed the old expansion tank, cleaned everything up and everything is working perfectly now, with an 18 month warranty ... so thank you very much for getting me to this pointhave a great spring/summer if it ever arrives ... now I move on to the electrical issues
 
  #53  
Old 05-03-13, 02:23 PM
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Hi Duke, sometimes ya just gotta bite the bullet... and probably $1000 wasn't all that bad a price, as long as it included parts. If that was just labor, then a tad high...

All done in one day and now you can go play golf.
 
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