question on my boiler usage

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Old 05-07-13, 12:40 PM
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question on my boiler usage

Hey guys need some help on what to do, I want to save money on heating and hot water usage in my house.

My house 2300 sq split level, 3 zone. built 1961, zip is 12601, this past fall I had the rim joists in my basement spray foamed and both of my attics. I also installed a 35 gal. burnham indirect water heater. I did not have a hot water tank before this. My boiler is a slantfin liberty II 1987. The gun and and other parts where changed in 2010. I know the boiler is way over sized at 150,000. By my cal. I should have like a 85,000 boiler. The controller went so I got a free new one from my oil company because of my contract. a honeywell l7224/72248. I know that is saving me a little more. My boiler is running at 82.5% when it is clean. I have the high and low set to 140 to 180 and they both have a 10 degrees off set with this new controller. That's not to bad. My first year I was in the house, was in 2011, I used 800 gal of oil for the heating season. I had all three thermostats set to 62 degrees. This year it was a lot colder season, with all the new stuff I used 505 gal. and had the heat set to 59 degrees. So this year I was using about 4.8 gal. a day on average. when it was 0 out I was using 7.9 gal a day. Right now with no heat on, I set the boiler down to 125 to 155 with the 10 degree's offsets its more like 115 to 145 it runs at. The tank is set to 125 digress. I'm using 1.6 gal a day right now.

That's my info and what I'm using. How dose it look? What's the norm I should be using?

So what options do I have here? Dose it make sense to buy a new top of the line burnham boiler that gets you 87% plus that computer that controls everything with the outdoor reset and so on?

Or go with something different like maybe a 60 Gallon Voltex Residential Hybrid Electric Heat Pump Water Heater. No idea how much my electric bill will go up though. I'm using a dehumidifier in the summer in the basement. So I know with this unit it dose that job too, so I would not need my unit right now. No idea how I would connect into the indirect water tank though.

Other options maybe something solar?

There is no gas in my area just oil, electric and solar option, well propane too.

thanks
 
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Old 05-07-13, 12:48 PM
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I also installed a 35 gal. burnham indirect water heater. I did not have a hot water tank before this.
Meaning that previously you were running a 'thankless' coil in the boiler for your domestic hot water... and that the boiler was set up as a 'warm start', meaning that it maintained a minimum temp 24/7 , yes?

I have the high and low set to 140 to 180
But wait... you've now got an indirect installed and you are still running warm start?

Doesn't your aquastat have the option of turning OFF the LO limit altogether?
 
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Old 05-08-13, 01:19 PM
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Yes, that was how it was connected and worked.


no idea, I know I do not have it connected to do so. like now the boiler is firing to keep it self warm from 115 to 145. When I got this iwt I thought it was not so post to make the boiler fire. People would tell me there boiler would not run for a full day if they did not ask for hot water. so maybe that's what I'm missing here and why I'm not really seeing a savings.
 
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Old 05-08-13, 03:35 PM
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why I'm not really seeing a savings
Very possible!

Depending on the age of the 7224/7248 and the exact model you have, you may not have the ability to turn off the LO limit though...

So take a close look at the aquastat and report every number that you can find.
 
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Old 05-08-13, 04:22 PM
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My first year I was in the house, was in 2011, I used 800 gal of oil for the heating season. I had all three thermostats set to 62 degrees. This year it was a lot colder season, with all the new stuff I used 505 gal. and had the heat set to 59 degrees. So this year I was using about 4.8 gal. a day on average. when it was 0 out I was using 7.9 gal a day. Right now with no heat on, I set the boiler down to 125 to 155 with the 10 degree's offsets its more like 115 to 145 it runs at. The tank is set to 125 digress. I'm using 1.6 gal a day right now.
Does not seem right to me.....505 gallons for the heating season?

In the winter at 5.5 gpd low side it would be $500 for the month your oil bill. How did you get $505 bucks for the whole year???

IDK maybe im missing something...... If your $500 bucks for the whole yr with oil dont complain........
 
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Old 05-08-13, 05:02 PM
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IDK maybe im missing something......
I think so... he never mentioned DOLLARS that I can see, only GALLONS.

Speaking of which, as a reference point for mikecsti to bounce his usage off of, I've burnt just under 430 gallons this winter, just under 2000 sq ft, thermostat at constant 70 all winter... except a few times pushed up to 71 when the Treasurer was 'chilly'.

So really, you aren't doing all that badly, all things considered... I think you might be 'upstate', and probably a bit colder than we are down here by da Joisey Shaw... and a bit more square footage... but you do keep the home bone chillin cold for my taste.

Still, I bet if you can go cold start you would save somewhere around 40-50 gallons more... MAYBE! standard disclaimers apply, and your mileage may vary.
 
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Old 05-09-13, 07:49 AM
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Trooper,
if his aquastat doesn't drop down no low limit would you recommend an Aquasmart with the controls?

If it does drop down and he is that oversized what about an HW+ or heat manager? Oil vent damper to keep heat in?

I'd be ecstatic with 505 gallons at this point. I bought my house in August and due to crap insulation/windows/tankless coil......I've already dropped 1000 gallons into my tank. Now that it's warmer I can work on those things once I can take vacation time. Hard to do when short handed and OT is the table.

And like NJT....there is NOT enough cheese to go with the whine even at 65 overnights. Colder spots and drafts don't help though.
 
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Old 05-14-13, 07:02 AM
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I found the # hiding and I found out online what I have.

http://s3.pexsupply.com/manuals/1290..._PROD_FILE.pdf

THis is the one. It will only let me bring the boiler down to 110 min. so I can't turn it off. Inless I get the out door rest it seems.

Thanks for you're usage. If I can keep the house at 64 and use 500 gal. I would be happy. Plus my wife would stop b**** at me. haha

Nope I was not talking $ at all. I i'm paying 4.39 a gal.
 
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Old 05-14-13, 09:18 AM
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Mike, if you've got that model of L7224U, you most certainly CAN turn the Low Limit OFF...

To use the L7224U in a cold start boiler application,
disable the Low Limit function by pressing the UP arrow
button, DOWN arrow button and I button simultaneously
for three seconds. Then push the I button until LL_ is
displayed. Then press the down arrow button until OFF is
displayed.
If yours does not work this way, it means that you don't have this model.
 
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Old 05-14-13, 09:23 AM
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Mike,
That one replaces many others that are cold start capable. Read the adjusting section. Just a little work to get to it.

Also check your PM.

Trooper beat me to it.

Check around for fuel prices. I called this AM to check and COD was $3.219 for 250 gallons.
 
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Old 05-14-13, 10:35 AM
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Just saw that sequoiasoon beat me to it!

Nope I was not talking $ at all. I i'm paying 4.39 a gal.

Mike the other guys here can give you the straight skinny, but if you are paying $4.39/gal that seems like way too much to me? I live in SE Pa and I don't see how it could be that much more in NY State? Here is the current price schedule from my discount oil supplier. They only deliver oil (not full service) and this is the summer price (I guess that makes a difference). But in February I paid $3.65/gal on a delivery of about 200 gals.

Maybe you are getting very small quantities at a time? Maybe that’s just the going price where you live? Seems really high to me. Could be wrong.

15 Gallons $6.65 = $99.75
25 Gallons $4.72 = $118.00
50 Gallons $3.75 = $187.50
75 Gallons $3.39 = $254.00
100 Gallons $3.31 = $331.00
125 Gallons $3.26 = $407.50
150 Gallons $3.20 = $480.00
150 to 300 Gallons $3.20
301 to 499 Gallons $3.20
 
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Old 05-14-13, 12:17 PM
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Trooper, That's mine, thats what's stamped on the unit. When I was playing around with the high and low limits, I know something is set to off. Note shore if that was or not. If I want a cold start I want it to say off? I'll check when I get home.

thanks for the oil prices, i know, I just checked when they filled me up and I called and said what the *** is this price. My area says oil for home heating is around 3.50 a gal last month when I was filled. I'm on a contract with a locked in price that can't go higher then 4.39, but there charging me the max they can. And they come when they want, the most I got this winter at one time was 135 gal. and I have a new 330 just installed last year. I'm not using them again. I'm going to use one of those places I call when I need oil. I do not need them to do anything to the boiler. I'll do it myself. When I called a guy from my oil company I have now, he told me that there buying everybody up so who are you going to use!! and when we buy everybody up we will charge what we want, and you can't do anything.
 
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Old 05-14-13, 12:33 PM
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I'm on a contract with a locked in price that can't go higher then 4.39, but there charging me the max they can. And they come when they want, the most I got this winter at one time was 135 gal. and I have a new 330 just installed last year. I'm not using them again. I'm going to use one of those places I call when I need oil.
You will get the best price COD. They have a minimum though in my area. I believe 250 gal.

When I called a guy from my oil company I have now, he told me that there buying everybody up so who are you going to use!! and when we buy everybody up we will charge what we want, and you can't do anything.
Call the BBB and log a complaint. Get out of the contract if you can.
 
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Old 05-14-13, 06:17 PM
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Good news and bad news, I can turn off the ll_. But I did and as I was thinking about it and hows dose the boiler know to go on when the indirect water heater asks for heat. The boiler did go all the way down too 100 tonight but the tank wanted heat and the boiler did not turn on. when the cp for the indirect water heater goes on shouldn't there be a connection from the tank control the control on the boiler? I had to turn the ll_ back on to start the boiler up to heat the indirect water heater.
 
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Old 05-14-13, 07:12 PM
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The indirect should have been connected so that it fires the boiler just as if it were another heat call.

Did you install yourself?

How is it wired?
 
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Old 05-16-13, 09:41 AM
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plumber installed the tank, I did the wiring.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]12715[/ATTACH]

this is the indirect water tank connections. I went with the wire diagram that they gave me with the tank and the controler I put on the wall, a 1 zone unit.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]12716[/ATTACH]

the only thing coming from the boiler is the white and black wires that go in the first and second slot on the lower left side of the picture. They go to the on off switch on the boiler. I think I should have two wires going to the last two slots in the upper right corner. That go to the L7224U? I saw a setting on the L7224U for a, on or off for a indirect. its called duu — ZR input configured as external Domestic Hot Water (DHW) request (ON/OFF).

Not shore where to put the wires and stuff, if thats how I'm so post to connect it.
 
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Old 05-16-13, 04:09 PM
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I went with the wire diagram that they gave me with the tank and the controler I put on the wall, a 1 zone unit.
Can you show me that diagram? Or tell me where you found it?

I saw a setting on the L7224U for a, on or off for a indirect. its called duu — ZR input configured as external Domestic Hot Water (DHW) request (ON/OFF).
That's what you will probably be using... but don't do anything yet.

Not shore where to put the wires and stuff, if thats how I'm supposed to connect it.
We can help ya with that...

What's the model of the Indirect tank?

The relay control is an SR-501?
 

Last edited by NJT; 05-16-13 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 05-17-13, 06:19 AM
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thanks

yes it is a sr-501, tank is a AL35SL Alliance Hydrastone-Lined Indirect.

i used the diagram that came with the al35sl to a sr-510.

This is what I did with the wiring, On the al35sl
my yellow wire that connects to the pump/tt, the one all the way to the right on the 35sl, goes to the sr-501 to the top r(t) on top as you can see in the picture. blue is on the second pump/tt on the 35sl, that goes to the w(t) on the sr-501. red is on the 24v side that goes to the same r(t) as the yellow one. Whites on the other 24v that goes to 24v on the sr-501 right next to the others.

then on the sr-501, i used white 120 vac put N goes to the power switch on the boiler and the other white lines goes to the cp. the black line connects to the H and that goes to the boiler power switch. the other black line is connected to the 4 n/o and that goes to the cp.
 
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Old 05-17-13, 12:24 PM
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sorry forgot to add the link

http://s3.pexsupply.com/product_file...SL-Install.pdf

page 16 is what i used for a wire diagram.
 

Last edited by NJT; 05-17-13 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 05-17-13, 05:37 PM
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That's OK, I only needed to know the model...

This should be a relatively easy 'fix'.

I'll post a diagram for you this weekend.
 
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Old 05-18-13, 01:21 AM
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mikcsti,
Just a question as NJT works on diagrams. You said you have three zones in the house. Is that three heating zones (separate thermostats) PLUS the water heater (making 4 total zones) or does the water heater count as a third? How are the other zones supplied (zone valves with 1 circulator or 3 circulators). Does the water heater have it's own circulator?

Somewhere the water heater should be set as a priority zone so that when you need hot water it will focus all the available heat to that since your probably in shower needing it to reheat ASAP and won't notice 5-10 min of 1 degree difference in the living room.
 
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Old 05-18-13, 06:57 AM
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That's a good point Sequoia... we should probably look at this as a 'big picture'. We should know how the entire system is set up before suggesting changes.

The 7224 allows configuring the ZR terminal to signal the aquastat that a DHW call is occurring. I am not sure about this but I don't believe it allows for priority, I'll check that later.

Mike, I'm gonna hold off until you can let us know the big picture.
 
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Old 05-21-13, 05:32 AM
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Yes I have three zone valves each have there own thermostat on each level. And one cp on the return side of the boiler right on the floor. it's the lowest point in the system.

I looked at the wiring of the 7224 and this is how it's connected.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]12954[/ATTACH]

all three zone valves are tied together and go to the (t) and (t) all the way to the right side of the 7224. there red and white.

the main cp white goes to c2 and the black line goes to c1.

the other 3 wires are from the boiler switch/off switch. l1 is black and white is l2 and red is e1.

I do know this 7224 has a delay or something with it because when one of the thermostat call for heat, the 7224 clicks and the cp turns on for about 30 seconds before the boiler fires.

anything else just let me know.

thanks
 
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Old 05-21-13, 02:32 PM
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OK, good...

Let's go back to the 501 relay again.

Tell me what OPEN terminals you have in there.

What you're going to need to do is add a jumper from the 120VAC HOT to one of the open terminals, and a 120VAC HOT from one of the other open terminals over to the ZR terminal in the 7224.

Then, configure ZR for 'duu'

When the indirect calls for heat, the 501 will energize the wire going to ZR which will cause the 7224 to fire the BURNER, but not the main pump.
 
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Old 05-22-13, 05:37 AM
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i have 4 n/c 6 n/c 6 n/o 5 com. thats what left. I figure the zr can go to the 6 n/o and the other line to 5 com right? but i have to add a jumper wire from N to?

I was looking at the instruction last night on the 501 and they seem to change all the wiring to it for a zr and zc connects

here http://s3.pexsupply.com/manuals/1351..._PROD_FILE.pdf

i'm wired right now like typical wiring but i did not connect to the 6 and 5 to boiler.

Do i want to change my wiring and lose the jumper and go with the alternative wiring diagram?
 
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Old 05-29-13, 05:39 AM
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Hey Trooper, did u get a chance to figure out my wire diagram?

thanks
 
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Old 05-29-13, 02:30 PM
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Hey Trooper, did u get a chance to figure out my wire diagram?
Sorry, I missed that you had replied!

I figure the zr can go to the 6 n/o and the other line to 5 com right?
Yes, that is correct. This must be 120VAC wiring. You should use MC Cable, but only the hot wire will be needed.

but i have to add a jumper wire from N to?
No, you don't need to run the neutral. It's already there.

ooking at the instruction last night on the 501 and they seem to change all the wiring to it for a zr and zc connects
Different application. That is for 'warm start' boilers. Ignore it.

Do i want to change my wiring and lose the jumper and go with the alternative wiring diagram?
No. Just add the jumper from the HOT in the 501 to the 5 COM, and the wire from 6 N/O to ZR.

Then, go into the 7224 configuration and set 'duu' to ON, or DHW, or whatever it's called, and turn the LOW LIMIT to OFF, and you'll be in business.
 
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Old 05-29-13, 05:47 PM
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Can I guess the name of your oil company. I may be wrong, but does it have the same name as a Chevy SUV. That sounds like something they would do.
 
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Old 05-30-13, 06:57 AM
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no big deal.

yes I have to get some MC Cable.

Thanks that seems easy.

with the 7224, all I change is the duu to on, and that overrides everything, I mean when it's calling for heat, right? Should I change the high limit back to 180or leave it at 145?

thanks again for you're help!!

no it starts with a P

I can't get out of the locked in price or they fine me 375 for leaving. I have a couple more months and I'm gone.
 
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Old 05-30-13, 09:36 AM
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A couple years back when prices were higher and then dropped, I worked at Home Depot. Somebody came in bought a new tank and put in their garage. Had COD come and fill it up. He took a couple gallons day and transferred it to his main tank. He was locked in at much higher rate and had many months left of cold winter coming.

According to him the oil company actually tried to sue him for breach of contract. in court he said he was keeping house colder, using wood stove and electric blankets because he couldn't afford the double price for contract and weekly fills. Judge dismissed the case with appropriate words to larger well known company about price gouging.

Their complaint if the price went higher the customer would be capped at lower price and wouldn't complain so why should he now.

It was also a larger local company.

I would check papers for the DHW. 145 might not be high enough to give you the BTU's to heat the water fast enough. Try it, you'll find out in a couple showers if it recovers fast enough. If not turn it up.
 
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Old 05-30-13, 05:54 PM
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with the 7224, all I change is the duu to on, and that overrides everything, I mean when it's calling for heat, right?
If you are asking: "Will wiring the water heater to the ZR terminal provide domestic hot water priority?", then yes, I believe that it will.

Should I change the high limit back to 180or leave it at 145?
Yes, I would. By allowing the water to get up to 180, you will have a much faster recovery on the domestic hot water. With it at 145 it's barely above the temp of your hot water. The boiler would have to run and run to reheat a tank of water.
 
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Old 06-03-13, 04:42 PM
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I connected it all up and it works great. when the tank calls for some hot water the boiler fires. and it does not fire all day long as long as we do not use hot water. but I did notice the whole time the tank is calling for hot water to boil does not shut off at all. my high setting is 170. it went all the way up to 210 when I took a shower this morning. it seems to be working fine except for the high setting. the zr is controlling. so the high side in the low side does not work at all? what do I need to wire different?
 
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Old 06-03-13, 04:58 PM
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I'm no expert, but if the boiler does not shut off at the high limit I would turn it off until you can resolve the problem. Could be very dangerous!
 
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Old 06-04-13, 04:56 AM
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Yes i know, I played around with it last night more to see what it would do. The temp was still 193 and the tank called for heat to go on. The boiler did not fire, so I was releaved some what. It did not turn on until 150 and turned off once the tank stopped calling for heat. That was only 160. So it seems to know not to start until it's 10 below the high setting but once its on it dose not turn off until the tank stops calling for heat, for some reason. That is scary because what happens when other things are using hot water at the same time like two showers and the dish washer. If the tank keeps asking for heat will the boiler stay on and keep going up? I do not know if I should try and test this and see what happens. And if it gets to high I'll just switch the switch off. I do know now when the tank asks for heat it fills up and stops asking inless then 5 min. before it would take a good 20 min. So I know I had the boiler set to low.
 
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