BOILER RELIEF VALVE LEAKING --- Expansion Tank And Valves Replaced.

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  #81  
Old 08-25-13, 05:23 PM
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2013-08-25_1914 - Docfletcher's library

2013-08-25_1916 - Docfletcher's library

It's a tough order to get shots from angles. Cabinetry and Tool boxs , and of course the Bock is in the way as well.

If you tell me a specific area you want to see I'll do my best to put it up.

The rusty nipple under the vent used to have a leak 15 or more years ago. I'm positive it no longer leaks and those blue areas are most likely from that and left over flux perhaps which was not cleaned. What looks like a drip is a blurb of solder. That whole area is bone dry.

The auto vent is on the suspect zone.

With all do respect I take exception to this remark... But they may be symptomatic of poorly soldered joints throughout your system? That said, you'll understand if I don't dwell on the question except perhaps to say there are 6 zones of copper here the average length of each loop is 100 ft.

I can't find any leak evidence along the walls of that zone. I'll have to get snake camera so I can see in the walls.
 

Last edited by docfletch; 08-25-13 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 08-25-13, 06:18 PM
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  #83  
Old 08-25-13, 06:43 PM
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Doc....Whole boiler pics???? May not help but I would like to see pics of the whole boiler...


The auto vent is on the suspect zone.
Would that zone be the indirect HWH??????
 
  #84  
Old 08-25-13, 06:52 PM
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Look at the last added photo before your post. It is the whole boiler.

No the Bock indirect water heater is not the zone.

The zone is the family room zone.
 
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Old 08-25-13, 06:55 PM
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Old 08-25-13, 07:05 PM
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With all do respect I take exception to this remark... But they may be symptomatic of poorly soldered joints throughout your system?
If those leaks had been fixed, I would have expected the green discoloration to have been cleaned up.

What in my remark are you taking exception to? Why? Who did the soldering?
 
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Old 08-25-13, 07:20 PM
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I did the soldering. It sounded like your felt if there was a bad joint there must be more. I took it a bit personally.

That green bothers me not. Suffice it to say that whole area is leak free.. Besides that spot was not a soldered joint leak it was the nipple reducer under the vent.

Boiler has held pressure all day with that family zone closed off. I'll open it up latter and watch for the pressure drop. In that zone only about 40 linear feet enclosed so maybe it won't be hard to locate the leak. It could be a real problem if it's pinholes in the copper. I'd have to swap it all out.
Geez, I hope it is a joint.
 
  #88  
Old 08-25-13, 08:30 PM
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Don't take it personal Doc, we're all just trying to help.

A couple years ago I finally found a 'leaker' that plagued me for about 25 years. The guy that installed the system way back when was a professional... ran a P&H business for a long time. Even the best of 'em can have a leak!



This was 'boxed in' a chase between the house and the attached utility room. You can see that some demo had to be done to get to it. Home was built in '54 and it probably leaked for 50 years, never enough to be seen, just enough that in 3-4 days with the valve off, the pressure would drop to zero.

If you see green AND a white crusty crumbly growth of mineral crystals, that's where your trouble is!
 
  #89  
Old 08-25-13, 08:55 PM
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I know you are all trying to help, I want you all to know I appreciate it. I think I'll let the boiler sit overnight as is. 1st AM I'll open the zone and look for the pressure drop.


Your photo shows the kinda blue that would bother me.
 
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Old 08-26-13, 08:55 AM
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Well, I opened the suspect zone and there was no pressure drop. I fired up the zone and no drop.
 
  #91  
Old 08-26-13, 04:14 PM
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This is still with the BFP plugged I believe?

Have you dropped the tank pressure a little bit yet?
 
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Old 08-26-13, 05:08 PM
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BFP is plugged. I have not dropped the tank pressure yet. But I will tonight for sure. I was out a good part of the day and I can tell you my mind kept wondering if the boiler was OK. As it turns out it is doing ok, 7pm here and all is well.
 
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Old 08-26-13, 05:46 PM
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I think easiest way to drop the pressure would be to take a reading with the tire gauge and pressure still on the boiler, and just let a smidgen out to drop the pressure 2 PSI from where it was.

When you do this you will also see the boiler pressure drop, so you might want to put just a wee tad more water in to bring that back to where it was.

What this will do is add just a little water to the tank at 'idle', when the boiler is cold.
 
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Old 08-26-13, 05:59 PM
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Ok, I just did it with the pressure on the boiler. Gauge read 14psi same as when no pressure on boiler. So I took it down to 12psi. I saw no pressure drop though.
 
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Old 08-26-13, 07:23 PM
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I saw no pressure drop though.
Hmmmm... I wonder if that means that the pressure in the tank was already higher than in the boiler?

How accurate to you figure your tire pressure gauge to be?
 
  #96  
Old 08-26-13, 07:29 PM
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Well, very accurate. Because I checked the tank after mounting it. 12 psi measured. Tank instructions stated the tank comes pre charged 12psi. This tire gauge though starts at 10psi. It's the kind that holds the reading until you push the button to reset to 0.
 
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Old 08-26-13, 07:37 PM
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Do you think it's possible that the boiler gauge did move just a wee bit and because of the resolution you couldn't really see a small difference?
 
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Old 08-26-13, 07:43 PM
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Yes, very possible, just looked again and it is 15psi down about 2psi. But it could be because the boiler got a little cooler. Although the 110 degree temp should not have changed much in 30 or 45 minutes. For all I know it's on it's way to 0 again. Hope not.
 
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Old 08-26-13, 07:50 PM
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15PSI at 80 degrees right now. I don't think it was 110f earlier I did not actually look. My bad.
 
  #100  
Old 09-26-13, 02:41 PM
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Boiler was doing well until today. Today the pressure relief valve began leaking. When I came across it the pressure gauge was at 30psi and the temp was at 140F. So I'm stumped, I thought my boiler problems were over, at least for this coming heat season. Can you point me as to what I should do next?

Just dropped the pressure relief so gauge reads 0 psi. Checked expansion tank pressure, is 10 psi. Added air to match factory fill of 12psi. Opened street fill valve and fired boiler up. Now wait to see what happens.

Well, slowly the pressure is increasing. Now at 24 lbs, so I shut the street fill and power to boiler off. I think that if the pressure continues to increase with the boiler off the problem will be a leak in the Bock indirect water heater coil.
 

Last edited by docfletch; 09-26-13 at 03:59 PM.
  #101  
Old 09-26-13, 04:47 PM
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I think that if the pressure continues to increase with the boiler off the problem will be a leak in the Bock indirect water heater coil.
Or the street valve....
 
  #102  
Old 09-26-13, 04:48 PM
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Grrr... I thought you were good to go for sure! I just had to re-read the whole thread to see were we went with this one.

Now at 24 lbs, so I shut the street fill and power to boiler off. I think that if the pressure continues to increase with the boiler off the problem will be a leak in the Bock indirect water heater coil.
Agreed.... let us know!
 
  #103  
Old 09-26-13, 05:09 PM
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Well it keeps building pressure, the street valve is a ball valve so I doubt that would be it. So now I will close off the in and out feeds to the bock and if the pressure does not increase then I think it proves it to be the Bock.
 
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Old 09-26-13, 05:31 PM
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the street valve is a ball valve so I doubt that would be it.

Had a guy here with a steam boiler with a leaky ball valve.... (Although no PRV there)

Just saying...

I leave no stone unturned....

My yrs working with engineers and PH'ds made me a problem finder, not a problem solver....
 
  #105  
Old 09-26-13, 06:11 PM
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I understand. I am trying to cover all the bases. Measure 2ice cut once.
 
  #106  
Old 09-27-13, 06:07 AM
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Well, I guess I'll get a new indirect today.
 
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Old 09-27-13, 07:47 AM
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Superstor are nice.... I like the contenders and can be had for around $700 last I checked....Just my opinion...better heat transfer then other brands last I compared.


SuperStor Contender Glass Lined Indirect Water Heater - HTP
 
  #108  
Old 09-27-13, 01:00 PM
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Well I did a little checking and I must say I agree with you. $660.47 is the quote I got and that is about $300 less than a comparable Bock glass tank. About $500 less than anything with a SS tank.

I'm a little concerned about rearranging the plumbing, especially the getting the circulator positioned up above the tank where I think I'll need it to be.
 
  #109  
Old 09-27-13, 02:56 PM
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It seems odd to me that only the contender seems well matched to the Weil Mclain. Calling for 8 GPM circulator and a low boiler BTU output (58000btu I think). Others were talking of 128000 BTU or more minimum and 10 gpm circulators.

Actually there may be one other that is a match for the Weil Mclain and all the connections are on top. The Buderus S32
 

Last edited by docfletch; 09-27-13 at 04:06 PM.
  #110  
Old 09-27-13, 04:02 PM
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Well, I guess I'll get a new indirect today
Did your testing prove out the theory that the Bock coil is leaking pressure into the boiler?
 
  #111  
Old 09-27-13, 04:12 PM
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Yes, I'm very confident the Bock is the problem. So now I'm thinking that the HTP Super Stor would make for a good replacement. However the Buderus S32 with it's all connections on top looks like a match as well. Except it calls for 11gpm flow rate. I have 8gpm so I'm not sure how that changes things?
 
  #112  
Old 09-27-13, 05:08 PM
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I have 8gpm
How do you know that Doc?

I believe that the only thing a lower flow rate will do is cause a slightly longer 'recovery time' when the tank is run down. There are ways to calculate the difference, but I don't think it's worth the trouble. I sorta doubt you would even notice.

I think (for a little more money probably... maybe more than a little?) that the Burnham stone lined tank would be good to look at as well.

Burnham Alliance Indirect Water Heaters , Indirect Water Heaters , Alliance Water Heaters - PexSupply.com
 
  #113  
Old 09-27-13, 05:41 PM
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Well I thought 8gpm would be the number because the circulator on the Bock is 8GPM.
 
  #114  
Old 09-27-13, 05:59 PM
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The Burnham $1039 ouch! But it does have all connections on top, in the same layout (sort of) as the Bock. If I were to go with that unit I would get the 25 as I have 4 people in the house.
 
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Old 09-27-13, 06:59 PM
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I thought 8gpm would be the number because the circulator on the Bock is 8GPM.
It's a little more complicated than that, and I'm not going to publish one of my thesis about it...

Let's just say that the GPM that the pump flows depends entirely on how much 'resistance to flow' that the system it is connected to presents to the pump, and the pump's ability to overcome that resistance.

The 'resistance to flow' is known as 'HEAD'.

Pumps operate on what is called a 'pump curve'.

This pump curve defines the GPM that a particular pump will be able to move against the system's HEAD.

I'll expand on this a bit if you are interested...
 
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Old 09-27-13, 07:01 PM
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Yeah... it is a lot more pricey!

You sure a 25 is big enough for a family of four?
 
  #117  
Old 09-27-13, 07:19 PM
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Centrifugal pumps do not have a rated gpm - for example, 8 gpm, or any other flow rate. As Trooper points out, each model of pump has a characteristic head-flow curve. There are always two extreme points on the curve: the shut-off head where flow is zero, and run-out where head is zero and flow is maximum. When you say that a particular pump is an 8-gpm pump, there is a misunderstanding here.

Now, of course, a pump may produce 8 gpm - but only at a specific head, which in turn depends upon the flow rate, in a circular way. A pump's operating point is determined by the intersection of the pump's head-flow curve and the corresponding system curve of flow vs. pressure drop.
 
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Old 09-27-13, 07:50 PM
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Sigh... I meant to say Alliance 35 not 25. At this point I'm tired, somewhat confused as to which one is the right one. Been dwelling on it almost non stop. I like the piping layout on the Alliance 35. Yet, I think it might be over kill as I have good water here. Also it is quite expensive.

One thing you may clear up for me is the matter of expansion tank used with the indirect heater. Diagrams seem to show one in place, but I currently do not use one and I'd like to keep it that way. .
 
  #119  
Old 09-27-13, 08:31 PM
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I should think that the 35 would be fine, unless two of the members are teenagers...

There's nothing wrong with any of them... choose the one that you like best for whatever your reasons are and be happy!

the matter of expansion tank used with the indirect heater
I'm sure you are talking about an expansion tank on the domestic side of the system... in many cases they are not needed... it depends on whether or not there are any CHECK VALVES between the street and your home. MOST of the modern water heaters have check valves in them.

The reason for the expansion tank on the water heater (when there is a check valve at the service entrance) is the same as on a CLOSED boiler system. When a check valve is installed on the domestic service entrance, the domestic system becomes somewhat of a closed system itself.

Without a check valve, the pressure that builds as water is heated in the indirect is absorbed by the city supply system. If there is a check valve, then the expanding water can't backflow into the city supply system and the pressure in the home rises, thus the need for an expansion tank to control the pressure inside the home.

Expansion tanks are not only used on indirect water heaters. They would be used on ANY water heater in a home with a check valve at the service entrance.
 
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Old 09-27-13, 09:26 PM
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Must be sediment of some sort in the bock. Have the system up and running now for 3 hours and no pressure build up. I don't quit easy but I think it's time I yelled uncle. I'm losing my resolve.

There is one other thing I've noticed, probably nothing but I'll mention it. When the boiler reach's 180 it flames off, but the temp continues to rise to 190. I think that may be kinda normal?
 
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