What is involved when adding a second hot-water baseboard zone?


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Old 07-30-13, 04:16 PM
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Post Hydronic Piping Configurations


Hello Group:


My very first posting to this forum, so please bare with me. I am trying to find definitions of several terms used within a Manufacturer's Installation Manual, e.g., DUNKIRK VLT-100 Gas Boiler.


Specifically, in a single boiler, two-pipe zone system installation, when would a "With Zone Valves " configuration ( fig. 5-5) be chosen rather than a "With Zone Pumps" configuration (fig. 5-6)? Why?


Some background info:
I am looking into replacement of the existing oil-fired boiler with a EnergyStar HE, modulating/condensing gas-fired boiler in my ranch-type house, which has one zone hydronic baseboard and an unfinished basement. A second zone (basement) after the conversion to gas is done is planned.


Thanks.


 
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Old 07-30-13, 04:49 PM
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Can you post the link to the manual to save us the search time?

There are two methods of zoning a system.

One uses a SINGLE pump to circulate the water, and ELECTRIC ZONE VALVES to route the water to the various zones as called on by the zone thermosats.

The other does not use zone valves at all, but rather has MULTIPLE PUMPS, one for each of the zones.

Other members may debate your choice of a "Mod/Con" boiler. I might too, but at the moment I'm short of time! There are pros AND cons... they aren't the 'magic bullet' that slick salespeople make them out to be.

For now, let me know if my answer made sense, if you want to talk about choices of boilers, we can do that later.
 
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Old 07-30-13, 05:48 PM
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Does your proposed gas-fired replacement boiler come with a circulator pump? Many hot-water boilers do. If so, then I would opt to add zone valves later, after you add heat to the basement as a second zone. Actually, I wonder if a second zone for the basement is even necessary if the future basement heat emitters aren't oversized. My two-story house has nine rooms plus a basement, all on one zone. I have four manual balancing valves for different quadrants of the house, with all the balancing valves running wide open. The system works fine. (Well actually, each of the bedrooms has a manual adjuster as part of the cast-iron convectors.)

Have you done the math to estimate the fuel savings and payback period for the incremental cost of going with a condensing boiler vs. non-condensing? I think it might be debatable. Running your own numbers will require some homework and study - if you don't feel up to that, I would advise you not to rely upon the advice of a boiler salesman, and go with a conventional NON-condensing boiler.
 

Last edited by NJT; 08-22-13 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 07-31-13, 07:29 AM
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Old 07-31-13, 07:37 AM
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first off whats your heat loss calculation say? I doubt you need a 100.... Probably the 50 IMO...

Give us the sq ft of home...

How many ft of baseboard?

This is just for use to guesstimate at this time and does not replace a heat loss....
 
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Old 07-31-13, 10:40 AM
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From the last line of my post:
conventional condensing boiler.
Correction: I meant to say conventional non-condensing boiler.

Additionally, depending upon how much excess radiation you have installed, a condensing boiler may not operate in a condensing mode for a significant part of the year.
 
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Old 08-22-13, 08:58 AM
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Post Indirect Heated Hot Water Storage Tanks

Hi:

I am in the market to covert from Oil to Natural Gas heating. My existing oil heat boiler (Peerless WBV-3) uses an embedded copper coil, I believe it is sized for 5 GPM. My showers, even at this time of year, go from hot to luke-warm and then eventually back to hot water again.

Should I search for an indirect heat tank that uses a stainless steel coil heat exchanger?

I believe that the poor performance of my existing DHW is due to corrosion buildup on exterior surface of the embedded copper coil, which acts as a heat transfer insulator. Is that correct understanding?

I do not know about heat-transfer rates of copper vs stainless steel.

___________________________

Also: What are the most important factors to be considered when choosing an indirect heated water storage tank?

With indirect heated water storage tank, is the boiler's hot water circulated through the tank's coil? or through the bulk 40-50 gallon volume of tank water and with the supplied source of cold water flowing through the tank's coil? What is meant by reverse heat exchanger design?
 
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Old 08-22-13, 09:10 AM
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Question What is involved when adding a second hot-water baseboard zone?

I am in the market to convert from oil heat to gas heat. Presently, one baseboard heating zone in a 1200 sq ft low line ranch house wood framed with unfinished basement. Peerless WBV-3 boiler in use now with one circulator and an embedded copper coil.

Sometime after the oil to gas conversion, I hope to finish the full basement and provide space heating and a 2nd full bathroom. The basement foundation is exposed about 3 feet above outside grade level.

What preparations should I consider now, at the time of installing a gas hot water boiler, keeping in mind that at some time there may be a need for a 2nd baseboard zone and a 2nd bathroom DHW load?



 
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Old 08-22-13, 10:31 AM
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Do a heat loss calc... Here..

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...alculator.html

At 1200 sq ft you should be around 30 k btu boiler.... That is if you do not heat the basement... If you are doing the basement around 60k btu...

Adding a indirect should not change boiler sizing much if at all... The super stor's are nice...

Now if you never get around to doing the basement then you will have an oversized boiler that will most likely short cycle.. Unless you go to a mod con boiler that will throttle down the output.

So do the actual heat loss calc and post back...

Others will chime in....
 
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Old 08-22-13, 10:33 AM
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I merged your threads... Best to have one going as its all related to your questions at hand....Otherwise it will get confusing.....
 
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Old 08-23-13, 06:55 AM
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For now, let me know if my answer made sense, if you want to talk about choices of boilers, we can do that later.

Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...#ixzz2cnc9fVyU
Yes; I can see from the referenced diagrams that the number of circulator pumps used differs and I know that zone valves operate on a different level of voltage compared to circulator pumps. I am looking for a more technical reason why one method would be chosen versus the other method. Is it reliability concerns? Costs involved? Layout of residence? etc. Considering that I want to make proper preparation for a possible basement refinishing project down the line, choice of which method is used at the time of installing a gas boiler might be important. Is it?

I am working my way toward which type of boiler is to be installed, and am leaning toward a mod/con HE stainless steel model with an indirect water heater tank.

Actually, my objective is to achieve maximum value for my dollar when doing the oil-to-gas conversion as well as long term, which might include a possible basement project.
 
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Old 08-23-13, 08:41 AM
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I am looking for a more technical reason why one method would be chosen versus the other method. Is it reliability concerns? Costs involved? Layout of residence? etc. Considering that I want to make proper preparation for a possible basement refinishing project down the line, choice of which method is used at the time of installing a gas boiler might be important. Is it?
What it really comes down to is installer preference.

Both methods have their own set of pros and cons.

Zone valved systems in the long run may be less costly to run because the valves themselves use less power.

Zone valve power heads may be somewhat less reliable than circulator pumps, but the heads are easily changed without draining the system.

Pumped systems MAY allow somewhat better flow, but with a zone valve system that is properly designed, this is not really an issue.

When a pump fails, unless it is installed with isolation valves either side of it, the system has to be at least partially drained to change the pump.

If the ONLY pump in a zone valve system fails, the entire home is without heat... but:

Zone valves can be manually opened and often will allow SOME heat into the home via 'gravity flow' in an emergency situation.

With a zone valve system if one or more zone valve(s) fail(s), that(those) valve(s) can be manually opened and that(those) zone(s) will get heat when another zone calls.

There are more reasons either way... perhaps the others will chime in with their likes/dislikes.

I myself would choose zone valves.
 
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Old 08-25-13, 08:44 AM
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Where do I find Climate data for my Location?

I have the Slant Fin Heat Loss calculator installed. First problem is what I should enter as the Outside Temperature. It is defaulted as 0.00 F, which possibly is appropriate for my location.

I am located near NY City. Where can I find climate data for this data field?
 
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Old 08-25-13, 12:14 PM
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Wondering why you posted same thing three times? Deleting two...

No, 0 is too low.

"Near NYC" ... as in one of the boroughs? or out by Orange and Rockland?

Shouldn't make much diff, but I think the city itself may be 15 and the outlying areas 10.

Look up "ASHRAE DESIGN TEMPERATURE TABLES" in google, should be able to find one.

You can change it later to anything you like.
 
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Old 08-25-13, 12:58 PM
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Thanks. I should have said near NY City, and on Long Island, Suffolk County. I will use +15.0 F as the design temperature in the heat calc.

Sorry about the multiple posts. I am a newbie to these forums and have fat fingers too.
 
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Old 08-25-13, 02:20 PM
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Yes, LI for the most part is 15.

No problem about newbie... just wanted to make sure you weren't posting multiple times thinking that would get an answer faster, cuz that just don't work!
 
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Old 08-25-13, 03:38 PM
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The 8th edition (2006) of Manual J, Residential Load Calculation, lists Suffolk County, NY with a design heating dry bulb of 10 deg F. That's the 99% ASHRAE value, which is what Manual J specifies for use in heat-loss calculations. I believe that in earlier times, 97.5% temperatures were used, which would be warmer than the 99% values.
 
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Old 08-25-13, 04:35 PM
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NJ Trooper said: "...wanted to make sure you weren't posting multiple times thinking that would get an answer faster, cuz that just don't work!
I much prefer a reply that addresses my question or concern, rather than a quick answer .
 

Last edited by NJT; 08-26-13 at 03:18 PM. Reason: added 'contextual quote'
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Old 08-25-13, 05:17 PM
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I much prefer a reply that addresses my question or concern, rather than a quick answer .
Sometimes the quick answer does address your concern. I think you questions have been answered very well by troop and gilmorrie....Possibly you need time to understand heating basics and it really cant be taught with a few forum posts..



First get you heat loss and boiler size...then take it from there...

IMO possibly you should read this book and educate yourself somewhat...There are many others...

Heating Help
 
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Old 08-26-13, 08:20 AM
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I hopefully will get to working on that heat loss calc again soon, but other issues have delayed me from doing that.

I agree; heating basics cannot be taught with a few forum posts. I will refer to internet articles and/or the college physics text books on my bookshelf, if required.
 

Last edited by NJT; 08-26-13 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 08-26-13, 02:22 PM
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Post Details on my residence

Give us the sq ft of home...

How many ft of baseboard?



Lawrosa:

You asked for some of this info; I have added additional details that I think are relevant to doing a heat calc.

The sq ft is approximately 1053 based on outside perimeter dimensions.

A total of approximately 81.85 feet of baseboard radiators is present based on measuring the housing for the hydronic baseboard radiator emitters.

The present heating equipment consist of a Peerless boiler, identified as:
Boiler No.: WBV-110-W
D.O.E. Gross Output: 129 k BTU/hr
Net I.B.R. Rating: 112 k BTU/hr water
and at present is using a Carlin Model 101CRD w/ a 0.85 GPH , Delavan nozzle.

IIRC, the original steel (pot) boiler was rated as 119 k BTU gross output and net I.B.R. of 93 k BTU. No external hot water tank exists at this time.

This is a six-room, wide-line, hip-roof line, low-ranch-type house of wooden frame construction, with a full unfinished basement. It is located in Suffolk county Long Island, NY. The poured concrete foundation is visible as little as 32 inches to about 40 inches above the present grade level. Exterior wall material is vinyl siding with a layer of foam board (not sure how thick that is, probably 1/2-inch), and there is 3 1/2 inch insulation in exterior framed walls and wall common to the attached garage. The original front door and all windows and siding were replaced in yr 2000. Windows are Andersen casement, bay, and double hung single pane type (except for bay's picture window area, which is I.D'ed as "HIGH PER" in lower corner). During yr 2009, steel covered insulated doors replaced the other two original entrance doorways (one of which is at the basement-floor level).

I hope this helps the discussion.


 
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Old 08-26-13, 03:36 PM
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I will refer to internet articles and/or the college physics text books on my bookshelf, if required.
Be careful about trusting internet advice! On the internet EVERYONE is an expert! Including ME!

If you want a college level book on heating systems, I might suggest John Siegenthaler's "Modern Hydronics" THIRD edition. There are still plenty of the SECOND edition available and for the most part they are priced the same as the THIRD. The third has a lot of newer information. It's pricey, but worth it. You work through that book and understand it and you will know more than 99.99% of the so-called 'experts'.


I am betting with Lawrosa on the heat loss... You are going to come in somewhere around 30K without the basement. I don't believe adding the basement will double the heat loss though since most of it seems to be below grade. Might kick ya up to say 50K or so, if that.

If you do go mod/con, look for one that modulates down as low as possible. My preference in mod/con would be Triangle Tube Prestige. They may not modulate down as low as some... but for the price point and quality and support and parts availability, they would be my choice.
 
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Old 08-27-13, 09:05 AM
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Book title: "Hydronic Radiant Heating" by Dan Holohan

Lawrosa:

IMO possibly you should read this book and educate yourself somewhat...There are many others...

Heating Help
Thanks for the reference book suggestion.

Can you tell me if the content of Hydronic Radiant Heating, Dan Holohan"s book, centers on hydronic floor panel radiant heat emitters or on hydronic baseboard radiant heat emitters, or both? There is only a remote possibility that a future basement zone could be floor panel hydronic radiant heat emitters.

As the saying goes: "You cannot/should not judge a book by its cover". I have Googled the title and author's name. Just read the reviews given at Amazon.com, and cannot answer my own above question.

I will try to get a copy via my local library system. Also, I found it interesting that this paperback is published by the author's associates. I have written several books myself, but not of the kind where humor was permitted, and the publisher was authorized by the D.O.D.
______________________________

Trooper has also recommended a text book to me. Oddly enough, Mr. Holohan has written a favorable review for that work, and is available at:
Heating Help
A PDF of the Table of Contents is also available there, and it is impressive, IMO.

I shall also try to obtain a copy of John Siegenthaler's work via my local library.

Thanks again, to both you and Trooper.
 
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Old 08-29-13, 01:02 PM
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Question Using the Slant Fin Heat Calc Software: HE 2 Explorer

The sq ft is approximately 1053 based on outside perimeter dimensions.

A total of approximately 81.85 feet of baseboard radiators is present based on measuring the housing for the hydronic baseboard radiator emitters.

The present heating equipment consist of a Peerless boiler, identified as:
Boiler No.: WBV-110-W
D.O.E. Gross Output: 129 k BTU/hr
Net I.B.R. Rating: 112 k BTU/hr water
and at present is using a Carlin Model 101CRD w/ a 0.85 GPH , Delavan nozzle.

IIRC, the original steel (pot) boiler was rated as 119 k BTU gross output and net I.B.R. of 93 k BTU. No external hot water tank exists at this time.

This is a six-room, wide-line, hip-roof line, low-ranch-type house of wooden frame construction, with a full unfinished basement. It is located in Suffolk county Long Island, NY. The poured concrete foundation is visible as little as 32 inches to about 40 inches above the present grade level. Exterior wall material is vinyl siding with a layer of foam board (not sure how thick that is, probably 1/2-inch), and there is 3 1/2 inch insulation in exterior framed walls and wall common to the attached garage. The original front door and all windows and siding were replaced in yr 2000. Windows are Andersen casement, bay, and double hung single pane type (except for bay's picture window area, which is I.D'ed as "HIGH PER" in lower corner). During yr 2009, steel covered insulated doors replaced the other two original entrance doorways (one of which is at the basement-floor level).


The attic crawl space in this house has the original 6-inch insulation installed with two exceptions: (1) over a ceiling fan's shutter space and (2) over a hatchway located within the master BR closet that leads to the attic crawl space.

While working my way through using the Slant Fin Heat Loss Explorer 2 software, I am having difficulty in determining several entries; for example:
  1. For the Exposed Wall Factor entry I selected "frame" 3 1/2 inch insulation More options. However, the house's exterior wall surface is vinyl covering over foam board, plywood sheathing, 2 by 4 wooden studs with 3 1/2 inch insulation. There is no option for VINYL siding under More options.

    What should I use here?
    .
  2. Living Room & Dinning Room form an "L" shaped space. One wall in dinning room is in common with the stairwell leading to the basement. This interior wall has a small closet space (hollow core wood door) at one end, has a hollow core wood door that leads to an exterior rear entrance door platform at the other end, with a solid drywall wall section in between. From this platform there is a stairwell that leads to unheated full basement. This interior dinning room wall has no insulation within.

    How should this interior wall area be handled?
    .
  3. I have divided the hallway that leads to the bedrooms into two parts, because one ceiling area has a whole house fan shutters (approximately 30 in by 30 in.). The ceiling for this hallway is "L" shaped.

    How should the shutter's sq ft area (and closet hatchway's sq ft area) be handled?
    .
  4. Two bedrooms share a common wall with the attached single-car size garage. This common wall has full width insulation. The garage door is suppose to be an insulated-type, but no insulation is present in the garage's exterior wall, which do not have drywall covering.

    How should these two bedroom walls that are common to an attached garage space be handled?
 

Last edited by NJT; 08-29-13 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 08-29-13, 03:21 PM
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You may not actually need to get exactly on the money.

The program translates the selections into numerical factors. You can change those factors manually.
  1. The program isn't really concerned with the exterior covering, only the insulation value of the wall assembly which in your case is obviously enhanced to some degree by the addition of the foam under the siding.

    Note that one of the wood siding selections includes 1" of foam in addition to the 3-1/2" of fiberglas, and this only changes the factor from 0.07 to 0.06.

    Changing the number in the box recalculates in real time the heat loss of that particular room.

    I have one room that is 32x12 (combined LR/DR) with a heat loss of 10,362 using the 0.07 wall factor. Going to 0.06 wall factor only changes that by appx 100 BTU, so really, that small a change is rather insignificant in the end.
    .
  2. That section of wall is probably best entered as a "Cold Partition" wall, and the 'factor' selected to one that is a reasonable number. Notice that the only choices are PLASTER walls... who uses plaster anymore? Bottom line though, look at the choices and use a NUMBER that seems reasonable.
    .
  3. That fan shutter is an 'open window'. You should investigate ways to close that window in the winter time. One solution would be to build a 'box' out of 2" (or more) foam board and place it over the fan in the attic each winter. Additionally, you should design the box carefully so as to limit airflow. Air in- and ex-filtration is a FAR greater heat loss factor than insulation or lack thereof. If this is terribly inconvenient or impossible, I would probably mentally add at least 1000 BTUH to the total heat loss for that area. You are losing quite a bit of heat through those shutters in the winter. I actually removed my whole house fan last winter for that reason. It was rarely used anyway.
    .
    The hatchway in the closet can also be insulated. Glue 2" or more of foam to the back of the board so it's a 'snug' fit in the hole. Apply a weatherstrip around the hatch way to stop air exfiltration. Since this hatch is in a closet which probably has the doors closed most of the time, it's impact won't be that great if you can insulate and seal the hatch.
    .
  4. Probably a "Cold Partition" again, with an appropriate factor. Consider insulating the garage exterior walls. Install weatherstripping to the garage door top/sides/bottom to reduce infiltration as much as possible.

Taco has a couple on-line courses that may help you understand the heat loss calculations... I don't know if you need to sign up or not... (I think you can watch the vid, but you won't be able to download the certificate of completion). You can find them here:

Taco FloPro: FloPro University

Hydronic Design: It All Starts with Heat Loss, Part 1 & 2
 
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Old 08-29-13, 03:33 PM
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Can you tell me if the content of Hydronic Radiant Heating, Dan Holohan"s book, centers on hydronic floor panel radiant heat emitters
I believe it does... but not 100% certain. Generally when Dan talks about radiant he means tubing in a floor/wall/ceiling assembly, even though baseboards do provide some radiant heat.

Oddly enough, Mr. Holohan has written a favorable review for that work
Not odd at all! Siggy has written what most professionals consider the 'Bible' of hydronic heating.
 
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Old 09-04-13, 08:52 AM
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Siggy has written what most professionals consider the 'Bible' of hydronic heati

Siggy has written what most professionals consider the 'Bible' of hydronic heating.

Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...#ixzz2dwIKp48H
I am presently waiting for Mr. Siggy's book to arrive from an adjacent library. Apparently, there is a waiting list, as I made my request about a week ago.

Mr. Holonhan's book was not available via my local library. A title search did not provide any return hits in their database system, and I could not locate any ISBN reference via Amazon.com reviews, online, etc.

.
 
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Old 09-04-13, 09:32 AM
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Installation of a boiler on Basement's raw poured concrete wall & Side-venting

I am considering installation of a wall-mounted gas boiler on the basement's raw poured-concrete wall. What guidelines should be followed?

It is becoming more difficult to plan on a direct venting scheme. The safety restrictions for side-venting are not absolutely clear to me at this time. I have been told that a minimum of 12-inches from a window or doorway; another says minimum of 36-inches from a window or doorway and a minimum of 10 feet from a thru-wall a/c unit. Also some concern about an exhaust fan located in my kitchen. Is there a reference guide for safe venting these gas boilers?

An alternate scheme would be to run the boiler's exhaust pipe along basement wall, about 15 feet, to use the chimney as a chase for PVC piping. This would force me, in the future, to build an interior wall that is not flush with the basement's poured concrete wall, to accommodate mounting the 3-inch PVC exhaust pipe run to the base of the chimney. There would also be an additional expense for someone working at the rooftop level to install the vent's termination plate, etc. This would also mean locating the boiler closer to the basement floor so that a pipe runs an incline, that is below an existing basement window, to the chimney's base; and generates concerns about future insulation of basement interior envelope.

What method is commonly used to mount a boiler on a concrete wall? Is it a matter of installing furring strips and then use plywood as a base for the boiler and piping components? What should be applied to the wooden base: waterproof paint? sealant?

Any guidance to answer these questions will be appreciated by me: someone who is not a plumber nor a carpenter.
 
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Old 09-04-13, 09:45 AM
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Is there a reference guide for safe venting these gas boilers?
It comes down to the boiler manufacturers requirements. There are some local code variations... You can call your local code enforcement to be absolutely certain....


What method is commonly used to mount a boiler on a concrete wall?
I install a large piece of 3/4" plywood to the wall. Then mount the unit , controls, pumps and such to the plywood...

I use no paint, sealant, but I suppose you could for aesthetics...

I use these to mount the plywood normally. Or the other type like this.

 
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Old 09-04-13, 03:38 PM
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It comes down to the boiler manufacturers requirements
Most companies have their install documents available for download on the net. The requirements are shown... As Mike said, local codes may trump the manufacturer.

run the boiler's exhaust pipe along basement wall, about 15 feet, to use the chimney as a chase for PVC piping
The manf will also spell out the maximum "Total Equivalent Length" (TEL) of venting pipe that can be used. TEL takes into account the added flow resistance of various fittings such as 90 and 45 elbows. For example, you might count a 90 elbow as 6' of straight pipe (number may not be correct, for illustration only). They may also limit the number of elbows regardless of the TEL.

What method is commonly used to mount a boiler on a concrete wall?
If there is any chance of 'damp' concrete, I think I would opt for pressure treated furring strips (except for the toxicity of the PT treatment). There is a newer, NON-toxic, product called 'BluWood' that is designed for concrete contact and damp areas. The Blue stuff is mold, fungus, and insect resistant. Whenever wood is in contact with concrete I like to put tarpaper between the two. Paint on the board looks nice... but not necessary (I would do it because I'm AR). "Tapcon" is another choice for securing the furring strips to the wall.

Watch:
How To Use Tapcon Concrete Screws - YouTube

Shannon has some good videos:
How To Fasten Wood To Concrete - YouTube

More from Shannon about BluWood:
Information on BluWood Treated Wood - YouTube
 

Last edited by NJT; 09-04-13 at 04:11 PM.
 

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