Bell & gosset pump
#1
09-01-13, 03:23 PM
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Bell & gosset pump
My Bell & Gosset pump is sounding like a bad dinner triangle any ideas what parts to replace?
#2
09-01-13, 03:38 PM
Hi Cathy, welcome to the forums.
That's funny... a bad dinner triangle... you mean the dinner is bad? or the triangle?
If it's a 'hammering' type of noise and it is clearly coming from the circulator pump, the problem is most likely a broken 'coupler'.
Is this a large pump with a motor hanging on the end, like this?
image courtesy pexsupply.com
Go to the pump and tell us all the model information so we can point you to the right parts if you decide to repair yourself.
If so, then the coupler looks like this:
image courtesy pexsupply.com
and is in that section between the motor and the pump. You can see it if you look in the little window.
DO NOT STICK A FINGER IN THERE! OUCH!
How's your handywoman skills? It's not too hard to change...
That's funny... a bad dinner triangle... you mean the dinner is bad? or the triangle?
If it's a 'hammering' type of noise and it is clearly coming from the circulator pump, the problem is most likely a broken 'coupler'.
Is this a large pump with a motor hanging on the end, like this?
image courtesy pexsupply.com
Go to the pump and tell us all the model information so we can point you to the right parts if you decide to repair yourself.
If so, then the coupler looks like this:
image courtesy pexsupply.com
and is in that section between the motor and the pump. You can see it if you look in the little window.
DO NOT STICK A FINGER IN THERE! OUCH!
How's your handywoman skills? It's not too hard to change...
#3
09-01-13, 05:43 PM
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Bell & Gosset
I was apprentice to a electrician who did almost everything from plumbing to septic pumps. So my skills are fair to middling. I have been unable to find the model number. The numbers I have found are serial mot10 9-6-1m protector mrf66ev plu5 1m h 1 1/4 hv. That pic looks like it just in a lot newer. I consider the noise more of a off tone clanging than hammering. I have already started to take the pump off one lousy bolt is stopping me.
#4
09-01-13, 06:12 PM
All you have to do is drop the motor.The 7/16 bolts. And then coupler. Helps if you leave a bolt on a bit loose to help hold it.Also long allen wrench helps. That's if it's the coupler.
#5
09-01-13, 06:54 PM
That B&G coupler is a fairly common part. Last time I got one I found it in Home Depot. If this part fails often it is because the rubber motor mounts have failed. Last time I changed the coupler I flipped the motor mounts upside down and it has been good for years now. If they wear out again I will have to replace them.
#7
09-01-13, 11:19 PM
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Bell & Gosset
Thank you for all your hints and tips. I hope to get that last bolt off soon. The interesting thing I see from the videos is mine is on upside down in comparison. But if it wasn't the oil spouts would be on the bottom and no, I have never touched this pump before.
#8
09-02-13, 12:03 AM
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The oil finally soaked that bolt good enough so its finally off. The problem's I see so far are #1 the gasket was around the impeller #2 one of the coupler springs is broken and bent out so I think that was what was clanging., and since its late I leave it as it sits till tomorrow. Hopefully I can find a allen wrench long enough to get in and get the coupler off.
#9
09-02-13, 05:50 PM
I almost posted last night to be certain that you were not removing the bolts from the bearing bracket-to-pump housing but... At least you had drained the water first.
I rather suspect that the gasket was NOT around the impeller until you pulled the bearing bracket from the pump housing. Most likely there was no reason to even pull the pump apart unless the seal was leaking (you didn't say it was) or if you KNEW the shaft or bearing was shot from running for years without oil. These pumps are all but bullet proof. I have seen them run 24/7 for DECADES with nothing more than an occasional shot of oil in each of the three oiling ports.
Couplings break for one basic reason and that is misalignment. This is usually caused by a sagging rear motor mount and that comes from over oiling the rear motor bearing and the excess oil running over the mounting rubber and destroying the rubber. If this is your problem then replacing the coupling without also replacing the motor mounting rings will cause the new coupling to fail in a matter of months.
I rather suspect that the gasket was NOT around the impeller until you pulled the bearing bracket from the pump housing. Most likely there was no reason to even pull the pump apart unless the seal was leaking (you didn't say it was) or if you KNEW the shaft or bearing was shot from running for years without oil. These pumps are all but bullet proof. I have seen them run 24/7 for DECADES with nothing more than an occasional shot of oil in each of the three oiling ports.
Couplings break for one basic reason and that is misalignment. This is usually caused by a sagging rear motor mount and that comes from over oiling the rear motor bearing and the excess oil running over the mounting rubber and destroying the rubber. If this is your problem then replacing the coupling without also replacing the motor mounting rings will cause the new coupling to fail in a matter of months.
#10
09-02-13, 10:45 PM
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Bell & Gosset
Sorry, I had forgotten to add the pump housing was coated in rust and the floor was damp. Also ,I only found part of the gasket I could not find the other part. Tonight I discovered besides the power pack being coated in oil the it is severely saturated to the point that oil was flung on the wall and several of the large vents are blocked with oil/dirt also when I disconnected the wires the coating crumbled due either to being 62 years old or being totally saturated with oil maybe both. So to top all that off it needs rewired.
Can the pump body be salvaged or should I buy a new one?
#13
09-03-13, 10:03 PM
As long as there are no holes in the casting you could use a wire brush and then slap on a coat of Rustoleum primer and two coats of Rustoleum finish and it would be good as new. The problem, as Guyold points out, is that the B&G pumps are energy hogs. Rather than substitute a 007 (I can't for the life of me remember the manufacturer of that pump) I would be tempted to use a three-speed Grundfos so that you could change the speed to closer emulate the pump curve of that model HV pump.
#14
09-04-13, 12:50 AM
The 007 pump is made by Taco. It is what is called a "canned" pump in that the motor and pump is one enclosure with the pumped fluid helping to cool the motor. They use a fraction of the power of that old B&G and cost but a fraction of the B&G. The Taco 007 is less than $100 vs. over $400 for the B&G. The Grundfos is a bit more than the Taco but still a real bargain in comparison to the B&G.
#16
09-04-13, 03:24 AM
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Bell & Gosset
That housing to me says its been leaking, but now you know one of the reasons why I tore it down so far. Does anybody have ideas where to look for the parts to put it all back together checking both options I am on a fixed income. Amd just trying to get it back on before the cold hits.
#17
09-04-13, 05:41 AM
If you're on a fixed income forget about repairing the B & G. The 007 will fit with no problem, save money on operating and if (or when) it fails, generally it's just a matter of replacing the cartridge.
#18
09-04-13, 02:30 PM
Cathy, carefully measure the 'flange to flange' spacing on the existing pump.
I think what you've got there is a 1-1/4" HV series pump and that may not have the 6-5/8" flange to flange that the Taco 007 has.
I just checked. If in fact that is an HV series pump, the flange to flange will be 8-1/2" and the 007, or for that matter any of the smaller more efficient wet-rotor pumps, will NOT fit.
Would it be possible to show us a pic of where these numbers were found? Ordering the correct parts depends on the manufacture date. Is it possible that pump was born in 1951 ?
Replacement parts list:
http://s3.pexsupply.com/manuals/1300..._PROD_FILE.pdf
Service Manual:
http://s3.pexsupply.com/product_file...10-Service.pdf
New HV pump:
102210 - Bell & Gossett 102210 - 1/6 HP, HV NFI Circulator Pump
Places on-line to buy parts, fast shipping (usually, if parts are in stock), pretty good pricing, probably cheaper than you can buy locally:
PEX - Radiant Heat - Radiant Heating - Plumbing Supplies - PexSupply.com
Patriot Supply - Industrial, Commercial & Residential HVAC Parts & Equipment
PexSupply search engine is a bit better than Patriot Supply...
I think what you've got there is a 1-1/4" HV series pump and that may not have the 6-5/8" flange to flange that the Taco 007 has.
I just checked. If in fact that is an HV series pump, the flange to flange will be 8-1/2" and the 007, or for that matter any of the smaller more efficient wet-rotor pumps, will NOT fit.
The numbers I have found are
serial mot10 9-6-1m protector mrf66ev plu5 1m h 1 1/4 hv
serial mot10 9-6-1m protector mrf66ev plu5 1m h 1 1/4 hv
Replacement parts list:
http://s3.pexsupply.com/manuals/1300..._PROD_FILE.pdf
Service Manual:
http://s3.pexsupply.com/product_file...10-Service.pdf
New HV pump:
102210 - Bell & Gossett 102210 - 1/6 HP, HV NFI Circulator Pump
Places on-line to buy parts, fast shipping (usually, if parts are in stock), pretty good pricing, probably cheaper than you can buy locally:
PEX - Radiant Heat - Radiant Heating - Plumbing Supplies - PexSupply.com
Patriot Supply - Industrial, Commercial & Residential HVAC Parts & Equipment
PexSupply search engine is a bit better than Patriot Supply...
Last edited by NJT; 09-04-13 at 03:18 PM.
#19
09-04-13, 03:22 PM
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Bell & Gosset
all the details I currently have I will measure later when I can.
Last edited by NJT; 09-04-13 at 04:28 PM.
#20
09-04-13, 03:51 PM
Replacing a nipple on one side or the other (or even both) of the pump location would be better than replacing the B&G pump. Heck, even using an extra pair of flanges with a short nipple to make a "dutchman" would be preferable to the B&G pump.
#21
09-04-13, 04:23 PM
I agree with Furd... if you price all the parts you will need to rebuild that pump, you will end up well over $200 I bet, and for that money you could buy THREE Taco 007 pumps.
007-F5 - Taco 007-F5 - 007 Cast Iron Circulator, 1/25 HP
If you purchase a second set of flanges, you can put together the 'dutchman' that Furd is speaking of. This might be a bit difficult to get the exact length you need though being as you only have to make up appx 1-7/8"
The picture of the data plate is I believe only for the motor itself.
Where did you find this section of numbers? I believe that the " 1M " may be the date code which places this pump and motor in January of 1951. I think it's earned a well deserved rest, don't you?
007-F5 - Taco 007-F5 - 007 Cast Iron Circulator, 1/25 HP
If you purchase a second set of flanges, you can put together the 'dutchman' that Furd is speaking of. This might be a bit difficult to get the exact length you need though being as you only have to make up appx 1-7/8"
The picture of the data plate is I believe only for the motor itself.
plu5 1m h 1 1/4 hv
#22
09-04-13, 04:38 PM
I replaced a B&G 1.5" HV pump with a Taco 0012. The flange-to-flange dimensions are 8.5", and the hydraulic characteristics match. The box of the 0012 is marked "HV equivalent." The problem is, any Taco pump other than the 007 will be much more expensive than the 007 - but the 007's head-flow curve will be underneath the HV's.
The B&G 3-piece pumps have 4-pole motors that operate a shade slower than 1800 rpm, while the Taco pumps have 2-pole motors, that operate at twice that speed, a shade less than 3600 rpm. The B&G pumps are therefore a bit quieter.
In my opinion, the B&G pumps are more durable, but the Taco pumps have only one moving part, the rotor, and are simpler - but if anything besides the rotor cartridge goes wrong, you have to replace the whole thing, unlike the 3-piece pumps. The Taco impeller is plastic or nylon, and is more subject to erosion than the B&G's bronze impeller. Both the Taco and B&G hydronic pumps are cast iron, which is good.
Some of the Taco components are made in China - while B&G's are, and I trust still, made in the U.S.
The claim that the B&G pumps are "energy hogs" is a bit misleading. The power delivered by a pump is the flow rate multiplied by the system head, not the rated power of the motor. The B&G pumps have beefier motors with higher rated horsepower, but they don't operate are full rated power unless the system flow and head requirements demand it - which is determined by the boiler and the piping system, not the pump.
The B&G 3-piece pumps have 4-pole motors that operate a shade slower than 1800 rpm, while the Taco pumps have 2-pole motors, that operate at twice that speed, a shade less than 3600 rpm. The B&G pumps are therefore a bit quieter.
In my opinion, the B&G pumps are more durable, but the Taco pumps have only one moving part, the rotor, and are simpler - but if anything besides the rotor cartridge goes wrong, you have to replace the whole thing, unlike the 3-piece pumps. The Taco impeller is plastic or nylon, and is more subject to erosion than the B&G's bronze impeller. Both the Taco and B&G hydronic pumps are cast iron, which is good.
Some of the Taco components are made in China - while B&G's are, and I trust still, made in the U.S.
The claim that the B&G pumps are "energy hogs" is a bit misleading. The power delivered by a pump is the flow rate multiplied by the system head, not the rated power of the motor. The B&G pumps have beefier motors with higher rated horsepower, but they don't operate are full rated power unless the system flow and head requirements demand it - which is determined by the boiler and the piping system, not the pump.
#23
09-04-13, 08:11 PM
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Bell & Gosset
Trooper I found those numbers on the motor body and considering the house was built in 1951 I would have to agree with you, the house also still has the original furnace talk about a beast. I was looking at all the parts/prices I need to replace and it does look like I will be replacing it. I just have to figure out with which one.
#24
09-04-13, 11:33 PM
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to Trooper my mistake those numbers were found on the impeller bracket/body and they actually are "size" h 1/14 hv phv -5 1-m
#25
09-05-13, 02:38 PM
while B&G's are, and I trust still, made in the U.S.
The Taco is a bit less expensive than a new HV, but still 'up there'. Beauty is that it's a direct bolt-in plug and play replacement.
0012-F4 - Taco 0012-F4 - 0012 Cast Iron Circulator (HV Equivalent), 1/8 HP
You want the F4, not the F4-1
I do believe that the 1M is the date code and Jan '51. Wonder if you can collect Social Security for it?
#26
09-05-13, 04:11 PM
A couple of additional thoughts. I haven't looked up the specs, but I think the B&G HV pump is heavier than the Taco 0012 - so the Taco would be a bit easier to wrestle during installation.
My relatively large system has mono-flo tees; I wanted to keep the flow velocity up so that the venturi diverters would work as originally designed with the B&G HV pump. I was afraid that replacing my 60-year-old HV, which was still working by the way, with the common (and less expensive) Taco 007 would not produce sufficient flow.
The Taco wet-rotor pumps are water lubricated, whereas the B&G 3-piece pumps have oilers. Personally, I prefer the oilers, but people may tend to over-oil or never oil (should use 2-3 drops per oiler, once a year). Or they don't use the correct oil (#20 electric motor oil).
The Taco 0012 is noticeably noisier than my old B&G HV, but not objectionably so (with my somewhat impaired hearing
). The flow noise in the piping is about the same, which is to be expected since the two pumps are supposed to be hydraulically equivalent.
My relatively large system has mono-flo tees; I wanted to keep the flow velocity up so that the venturi diverters would work as originally designed with the B&G HV pump. I was afraid that replacing my 60-year-old HV, which was still working by the way, with the common (and less expensive) Taco 007 would not produce sufficient flow.
The Taco wet-rotor pumps are water lubricated, whereas the B&G 3-piece pumps have oilers. Personally, I prefer the oilers, but people may tend to over-oil or never oil (should use 2-3 drops per oiler, once a year). Or they don't use the correct oil (#20 electric motor oil).
The Taco 0012 is noticeably noisier than my old B&G HV, but not objectionably so (with my somewhat impaired hearing
). The flow noise in the piping is about the same, which is to be expected since the two pumps are supposed to be hydraulically equivalent.
#27
10-09-13, 03:01 PM
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After all this apparently it is not a series 100 can anybody identify what model it is?
#28
10-09-13, 03:10 PM
I thought we established that back in post #18 ?
I just scanned the message quickly and didn't see where Series 100 was even mentioned? Maybe I missed it...
what you've got there is a 1-1/4" HV series pump
#29
10-09-13, 05:51 PM
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Ooops. Ok , I am going to crawl my sick airhead back in bed. I was searching for parts again and it was all coming up wrong lol.
#30
10-09-13, 07:34 PM
Hope ya feel better soon!
You should be able to find part numbers in those files I attached earlier... if you insist on fixing that one up. And when ya price out all the parts, make sure you compare that price to a new Taco 0012 before ya pop on the parts.
You should be able to find part numbers in those files I attached earlier... if you insist on fixing that one up. And when ya price out all the parts, make sure you compare that price to a new Taco 0012 before ya pop on the parts.
#31
10-19-13, 12:38 AM
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I feel much better now thank you. I forgot to look at the taco. But I got a new bearing assembly with impeller, coupler and motor mounts for 150 or so. Right now I am stuck on getting the motor mount inner ring off the end's and finding good gaskets for the pump body end.
