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Old 09-19-13, 04:36 AM
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Hi Gurus,

I have a Peerless (30 years old) two zone baseboard water heating system. Today I turned on the heat and pressure rose from around 12 to 30. At this point furnace shut off as set temperature (67F) was reached. I do not think it is normal, what tests I can do to diagnose ? I did purge air out of zones yesterday.

Thank you.
 
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Old 09-19-13, 08:34 AM
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Hi A'Z,

You've either got a 'waterlogged' expansion tank, an inaccurate pressure gauge, or both.

You may have the 'older style' expansion tank which is a large steel tank strapped into the floor joists above the boiler. The instructions to service that type of tank are NOT in the following sticky post, but the principles apply.

Let us know what type you have.

Start by reading this 'sticky' post...

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...sion-tank.html

And then read this one:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html

If you can, please take and post some photos of your system so that we can better instruct you how to service the expansion tank.
 
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Old 09-20-13, 04:12 AM
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Hello,

Some pics, observations and questions.

• I did not find the t/p gauge 0-30/50 psi at big box stores. Will try the plumbing supply.
• I also noticed that when burner comes on and if the water is cold t/p gauge gets foggy/hazy. Haze disappears as the water gets hot.
• I had shut of the system yesterday. In the morning t/p gauge was still b/w 25 -30psi. Also notice in the picture blackish area around the gauge, what’s causing it ? I am thinking of replacing the gauge but gauge has limited clearance behind for to accessing the nut; is there a special tool for removing it ? Do I need a t/p gauge with or without the probe ?
• I could not lift the tab on pressure relief valve, should I use pliers or just replace that too?
• I cleaned the automatic air bleed valve but if I keep the cap loose, waters leaks, so I tightened it.

Thanks you. I appreciate your time.

A'Z
 
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Old 09-20-13, 09:25 AM
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Also notice in the picture blackish area around the gauge, what’s causing it ?
That's a good question... and it makes me a bit nervous actually... it could just simply be 'dirt' streaking from air flowing in and out... and normal... but then it could also indicate that some of the exhaust gas is somehow leaking out from inside... only a close inspection could tell.

I am thinking of replacing the gauge but gauge has limited clearance behind for to accessing the nut; is there a special tool for removing it ? Do I need a t/p gauge with or without the probe ?
Can you press in a bit on the sheet metal cover to expose enough of a 'nut' to get a wrench onto? They are usually not very tight, and may in fact be a type that has an 'o-ring' and might only be hand tight.

Go to Peerless boiler website and see if you can locate the manual for your boiler, it might tell you the gauge type... most of them have a probe.

I could not lift the tab on pressure relief valve, should I use pliers or just replace that too?
I'm more nervous about this than the black streaking... if you do get a high pressure condition and that valve can't open by itself... time for an earth shattering kaboom! ...

Do NOT try to open it with pliers. It probably won't close again.

YES, BY ALL MEANS, REPLACE THAT RELIEF VALVE.

I cleaned the automatic air bleed valve but if I keep the cap loose, waters leaks, so I tightened it.
That needs to be replaced also. Looks like it might even be the original!

You could / might end up replacing the expansion tank as well. That too appears original.
 
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Old 09-21-13, 06:05 AM
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Hi NJ Trooper,

I replaced the

1. Temperature pressure relief valve (Watts 30psi)
2. Air Bleed Valve (Taco)
3. Temperature pressure gauge
4. Extrol Tank Model 30. Charged it to 15psi before installing.

Took me about an hour.

Drained the system to zero psi therefore there was not much spillage.

Burner is not yet on but the pressure is already 25psi (same psi as before replacing the parts). Drained it couple of times but still shoots back to around 25 psi.

Suspect that inflow regulator valve may be leaking. What to check next ? Seems to me that replacing regulator vale maybe more involved. FYI I have noexperience of soldering.

Thank you.
A'Z
 
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Old 09-21-13, 06:45 AM
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Manually fill the boiler to 12 psi and then shut the water feed off.

There is an adjustment on the fill valve with a nut on top. You may be able to fiddle with it but often it needs to be replaced. You can try to clear the strainer.

Read service instructions here.

http://s3.pexsupply.com/product_file...96-Install.pdf
 
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Old 09-21-13, 07:08 AM
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What Mike said... fill to 12 and shut off manual valve. Monitor pressure, should stay at 12. You CAN run with the manual valve closed as long as you do due diligence in monitoring the system pressure. In fact, I believe that B&G recommends that the manual valve be closed after filling. (see instruction sheet Mike linked to)

I have little faith that adjusting the valve will have positive results, but it can't hurt to try!

Remember that adjusting the pressure down will have no immediate effect on the boiler pressure, you would have to manually drop the pressure in the system and allow it to come back up from a lower pressure in order to see the changes.

What may have happened is that some 'crud' broke loose from inside the pipe when you refilled the system and got into the valve. Not much water (if any) flows in that pipe if the system is leak free so crud can collect in the pipes.

If you do replace the valve, come up with some kind of temporary hose hook up that will allow you to blow out the pipe leading to the valve. You don't want crud getting into your new valve!

I have no experience of soldering
One side of that valve is a 'union' connection, the other side is threaded onto the pipe. It should be replaceable without having to solder.
 
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Old 09-21-13, 08:29 AM
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Hi,

I took off the bottom nut and bell of Bell & Gossett valve. When took the nut out some curd came out but no strainer, I think it is stuck to something. I tried lifting the diaphram disc but it seems to be stuck too, I did not apply much force.

There is a nut in the center of dics, should I remove that and then may be the guts will come out ? Not sure how to proceed.

Manual shut off to boiler is not working properly, I have to shut off the water heater valve, so shutting the manual shut off is not an option.


" I have little faith that adjusting the valve will have positive results, but it can't hurt to try!"


Do you mean some other part is defective also ? or you saying just replace the valve ?

Thanks.
 
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Old 09-21-13, 09:03 AM
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should I remove that and then may be the guts will come out ?
No try to adjust as per the instructions. Your best off not touching it and fill the boiler manually. Do this until you can replace.

Oh just re-read your post...

Yes you will need to change the shut off and fill valve... If there is no back flow preventer I suggest adding that also.

They make a combo unit that is pretty nice from watts.

Can you take pics of that area?

 
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Old 09-21-13, 09:53 AM
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Yeah... you're starting to get into an area that could be troublesome if for some reason causes you to not be able to run the heat... if there's a problem with that valve and you can't get water into the boiler, you're in trouble and might have to end up paying a plumber.

So yes, try to adjust the valve per the instructions ... first ... and then go from there.

If you do need to replace the shutoff valve to the boiler, there are 'solderless' solutions to that also:

Mike doesn't care for these, but in cases such as this, I think they have their place.

22304-0000LF - Cash-Acme 22304-0000LF - 1/2" SharkBite Ball Valve with Drain (Lead Free)

HD and Lowes sell these valves also.

You would also need a copper tubing cutter tool, you won't need a large one, or one of the expensive ones, you might only use this once!


image courtesy homedepot.com

The important thing about using the SharkBite fittings is that there are NO BURRS OR RIDGES on the pipe that can damage the O-ring.

I would install it on that vertical section of pipe leading to the boiler...

OR, just repair the valve that is already there. Might just need a washer.
 

Last edited by NJT; 09-21-13 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 09-21-13, 10:35 AM
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Mike doesn't care for these, but in cases such as this, I think they have their place.
LOL... They do have their place and in this situation I would absolutely use it. I would even use myself if I could afford them... But that looks like a good price. The home stores I believe you will pay through the nose!!!!
 
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Old 09-21-13, 01:47 PM
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Not too awful much more... about $3.00 and might save that on shipping?

SharkBite 1/2 in. Lead Free Ball Valve-22222-0000LF at The Home Depot
 
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Old 09-21-13, 02:18 PM
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Newbie Question

Gurus,

Luckily shut off valve to boiler just need a washer, replaced washer in zone shut off valves too. At least one problem solved easily.

Installed the pressure regulating valve, now the pressure is exactly 15 psi ( I have two floors), haven't started the burner as yet because the area is wet and I had shuff the power to boiler; I will check tomorrow.

When purging air, should the shut off to boiler be in closed position ? Can you please advise correct sequence of steps? and also instead of back flow preventer valve can I use check valve ?

SharkBite 1/2 in. Lead Free Check Valve-U2008-0000LFA at The Home Depot


Thank you very much.
 
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Old 09-21-13, 02:33 PM
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Great! you are making fantastic progress!

When purging air, should the shut off to boiler be in closed position ?
No, not usually. When you let air out, you will be dropping the pressure, so you will need to add water to make up the volume of air that was released in order to maintain pressure.

Can you please advise correct sequence of steps?
Tell us by what method you are purging the air... small bleeders at the baseboards / radiators?

Since you've had the system 'open' and probably drained a significant amount of water, I'm thinking you need to refill and purge using the drain valves above the zone valves.

Procedure for that in following post.

instead of back flow preventer valve can I use check valve ?
You don't absolutely NEED a backflow preventer. It IS being made 'code' in most jurisdictions.

A check valve isn't really a substitute for a backflow preventer. A proper BFP is actually TWO check valves and an atmospheric 'vent'. The way they work is that if any of the redundant check valves leak, the atmospheric vent will open and dump, instead of allowing the boiler water to flow back into the domestic system.

So, the answer is no, you would be adding something that might 'help' to slow backflow, but not prevent it ultimately.

If I were you I would get the system going for the winter, and if you wish, install the BFP in the spring.

The only way you can get backflow is if your city water pressure 'goes away'... AND the boiler pressure is greater... AND the built-in check valve in the FB-38 fill regulator leaks back. 'Perfect storms' DO happen, though rarely.
 
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Old 09-21-13, 03:11 PM
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With boiler OFF and cooled to 100° or less................

Both zone valves CLOSED.

Attach drain hose to one of the hose bibs above zone valve.

Run hose outside into a bucket or into laundry tub with plug in so you can observe air bubbles. Keep end of hose underwater. If bucket is outside, it would be good to have a helper to tell you when bubbles stop.

OPEN the hose bib with hose on it.

With manual boiler fill valve OPEN, slowly lift up on the fast fill lever on the fill pressure valve.

Hold the lever up until no more bubbles from hose.

Release fast fill lever and THEN close hose bib, in that order.

Repeat for second zone.

Since the zone valves are closed, the entering water will travel up through the zone and out the drain, pushing the air ahead of it.

Since you will be introducing a lot of fresh new water with a lot of dissolved air, once the boiler is fired up this air will be driven out and you may hear air gushing through the pipes.

You can vent this air using any manual bleeders on the radiators/baseboards. The automatic air vent will eventually release the rest of it. Be patient... it can take weeks...
 
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Old 09-21-13, 07:23 PM
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Newbie Question

I have baseboards but I do not thinks they have bleeders in them. Is it possible to remove cover ? I tried but could not because end caps!!

I fired up the boiler, no heat on second floor. I think both zone valve may be defective because when thermostat call for head, the lever ddoes not move from automatic to open/max position, although one zone had heat even in closed position- confusing.

Here I go again How do I trouble shoot Honeywell V8043E1012 zone valve ?

THanks a lot
 
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Old 09-21-13, 08:38 PM
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Are ALL the baseboards installed like that?

You may still be able to get them off. I would suggest wearing some work gloves because there are sharp edges.

To get the covers off you should be able to pull straight up and unhook the top. Once the top is unhooked, slide the cover down to unhook the bottom.

Now, you should be able to slide the cover to the right or the left, further into the end cap, and the other end should be free.

While you've got the covers off, vacuum any dust or pet hair from the fins, particularly the BOTTOM, before you put them back on.

It is doubtful that there are bleeders... they would be at the ends... and how would you get to those with the end caps in the way?

Sometimes the endcaps are not nailed or screwed in place. They may just be slid behind the backplate. You may be able to slide them up and off, but this will usually mark up or damage the paint.

Take a flashlight and see if you can see inside the endcap. If there is a bleeder it will be on the elbow where the pipe turns to go into the floor.

Unless you can see that there is a bleeder, I would not try to take the end cap off. Taking the covers off to vacuum is not a bad idea though.
 

Last edited by NJT; 09-21-13 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 09-21-13, 08:48 PM
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the lever does not move from automatic to open/max position, although one zone had heat even in closed position- confusing.
The levers do not move when activated by the t stat. The zone valve will open but there will be no lever movement. If its open you should be able to move the lever freely back and forth. If its not open it will have spring tension on it and will need some force to move.

Also you can open them manually and lock them open by hooking the lever on the small offset tab all the way to the right.

Sounds like the zone may be open but you have air in that zone. Possibly need to re purge.
 
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Old 09-21-13, 08:54 PM
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no heat on second floor.
Have you followed the procedure to purge the air out first? If you did not get the air out you won't have heat.

he lever does not move from automatic to open/max position
The lever doesn't have to move when the valve opens automatically.

The first thing to do is listen:

Have a helper turn up first one thermostat, and then the other, while you are standing next to the valves. You should hear the motor 'whirring' when the thermostat is turned up to call for heat.

As soon as the valve opens, the boiler should fire to heat the water.

These valves have a motor that opens the valve, and there is a 'limit switch' that is pushed by a cam when the valve is all the way open. The limit switch (we call it an 'endswitch') is what calls the boiler to fire.

If you hear the motor whirring, and the boiler does fire, it means that the valve is working.

Another way to check if a valve is open or closed is to operate the lever by hand.

If the valve is already open by the motor, the lever will be 'free'. You can move it back and forth with no resistance at all.

If the valve is closed, when you push on the lever, you will feel resistance. If you push the lever toward the open position, you will hear the 'whirring' noise of the gears as you manually open the valve. If you release the lever, it will automatically return to closed position unless you slip in into the small 'notch' to hold the valve open.

Do these things first and let us know. If you have and know how to use a multimeter, there is some electrical testing which you can do.

I do believe that you may still have air in the upper zone though...

[edit: while I was typing my long-winded response, Mike said the same thing I did, but with far less words! Great minds think alike!]
 
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Old 09-22-13, 03:21 AM
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Gurus,

I will bleed the system again.

I do have multimeter and can do basic tests.

As always, I thank you very much.

A'Z

p.s Information I am getting here is priceless.
 
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Old 09-22-13, 06:26 AM
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Newbie Question

Followed instructions and bled the system again. It worked, we have heat on second floor. I have a question though, When to bleed the system with zone valve closed and when to bleed with zone valve open ? I am thinking if the air is in boiler we would open the zone valve!!

What multimeter test would you have done if the zone valve was suspect ?

All the baseboard in the house are the same as in picture, No air vents.

Thanks.
 

Last edited by AbsoluteZero; 09-22-13 at 06:50 AM.
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Old 09-22-13, 08:37 AM
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What multimeter test would you have done if the zone valve was suspect ?
Thermostat, and 24 voltls test to valve. Also end switch continuity.

I always bleed zone open and its never the boiler that's air bound.
 
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Old 09-22-13, 10:40 AM
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I always bleed zone open
Let's clarify this a little bit...

I believe there is a difference between BLEEDing and PURGING.

I think of BLEEDING as opening a little air vent and releasing trapped air.

PURGING on the other hand is when you hook up a hose to a drain and blast the water through by opening the fast fill on the pressure reducing valve.

If you are BLEEDING a system, it really doesn't much matter whether the zone valve is open or closed.

When you are PURGING though, it's a little different...

Since the water will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance, and ALWAYS flow from HIGHER (the water inlet with fast fill open) to LOWER (the open drain valve) pressure, if when performing a PURGE the zone valve is open, the water will flow into the boiler, but instead of traveling up through the zone, it would take the shortest, easiest, path up the return, past the zone valve, and out the drain.

There would be little or no water going up into the zone to push the air out.

When doing a purge (or filling the system) using the method I described with the zone valve closed, the boiler would fill first. Air in the boiler would be vented out of the automatic air valve at the top of the boiler, and would also be pushed up, through the zone, and out the drain.

There MAY be some air trapped in the pipe below the zone valve, and if this was a concern, you could certainly open the zone valve manually for a few seconds during the purge process in order to fill that pipe with water, and then close it again to complete the process.

It's important to understand that there is a difference between bleeding and purging.
 
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Old 09-22-13, 07:29 PM
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Newbie Question

Oops, I use the words loosely not understanding the difference.

Is there any maintenance I can perform on burners ? Does the flame look ok?


Video:

Peerless MMW 145A WC | Flickr - Photo Sharing!




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Thanks.

A'Z
 
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Old 09-22-13, 07:40 PM
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They look pretty good. Flame looks good.

Just remove the burner tubes and clean them once a yr.

Then vacuum all around down there after the tubs are remove....

Can always remove jacket and brush boiler sections too.... Most dont do this with gas.
 
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Old 09-22-13, 07:45 PM
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For comparison here is my 30 plus yr old boiler with cast iron burners.

Note: Dont mind the spider. He is in a better place.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoxgfORyfIo
 
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Old 11-05-13, 07:18 AM
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Newbie Question

Hello Gurus,

Need your help again!!

Boiler turns off (and on again) before reaching the thermostat set temperature of 67F, at this point temperature/pressure is around 180F /25psi. I
am keeping water inlet valve (before pressure regulating) in closed position. When boiler shuts off before reaching the thermostat temperature, I hear kind of humming
noise that is twice as loud as transformer humming noice when burner is off after reaching the thermostat set temperature.

On the coldest day (Monday) in NJ, house reached the set temperature of 67F from 60F after 2.5 hours of cycling at 7am. House was built in 1980, covered area is 2300

square feet and has original double hung windows.
Questions:
1, Is humming noise coming from circulating pump? How to confirm the source and how should a normal circulating pump sound like? I do not hear the humming noise when

burner is on and circulating is also on.
2. Should it take two and a half house to heat the house seven degrees? I think normal time would be around 30 minutes!!!

Thanks.
AB
 
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Old 11-05-13, 06:39 PM
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If your boiler is oversized, a definite possibility, then yes, it would be normal to have the burner cycle on and off while the house was heating. If you have a minimal amount of heat emitting surfaces (baseboards, convectors or radiators) it could take a few hours to warm the place.
 
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Old 11-06-13, 04:21 AM
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Newbie Question

How to determine if boiler is oversize ?

Two rooms on second floor that are not in use, I have closed baseboard opening covers!!

In September, I replaced the

1. Temperature pressure relief valve (Watts 30psi)
2. Air Bleed Valve (Taco)
3. Temperature pressure gauge
4. Extrol Tank Model 30. Charged it to 15psi before installing.

This will be first winter in this house!!! I am also a novice in water heating system.

Sometimes we hear pipe expansion noise (not really banging) when heat comes on, it wakes us up. I am thinking of purging the air again. But how will I set the boiler pressure to 15 psi ( two Floors) after purging when the water is hot boiler under pressure.
Thanks.
 
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Old 11-06-13, 04:36 AM
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How to determine if boiler is oversize ?
We can guestimate but you need to do a heat lose of the home.

How many sq ft is the home and what size boiler?


Sometimes we hear pipe expansion noise (not really banging) when heat comes on, it wakes us up.

Could be thermal expansion. What is the high temp set to in the aquastat? Reading your temp gauge whats the highest temp it reaches?

Also if you want look inside your baseboards. Tell us how many ft you have in the home of only the part that has the aluminum fins on the copper pipe..
 
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Old 09-06-14, 10:44 AM
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Hello Experts,

Last winter around 5am when boiler would turns on and also some other times, baseboards made clicking noise (sound clips attached), I am thinking it thermal expansion noise not air. In any case how do I get rid of it. I did remove air from the system couple of times last winter.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6nj5i97bh...zyvjHc8ra?dl=0

Thanks.

AbsoluteZero
 
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Old 09-06-14, 11:01 AM
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Yes, absolutely, expansion noise.

It's the same principle as an earthquake.

There's friction between the pipe and something else... wood framing member usually ... and as the pipe heats and expands, the friction is overcome and the pipe moves.

It's usually caused because the holes for the pipes are too small, but even when they are correctly sized, if the pipe is laying on the wood this is what happens.

You need to locate the source of the noise... and that isn't easy because the sound is 'transmitted' along the pipes. You might hear it through a whole run of baseboard.

If you can find the source, very often a plastic shim cut from a milk bottle can be slipped under the pipe to allow it to move without making noise.
 
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