weil mclain boiler not working properly


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Old 11-04-13, 07:26 AM
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weil mclain boiler not working properly

I just had a Weil McLain 97+70 boiler installed to provide hot water to my radiant heat system. Its not working properly. Does anyone know what the symptoms would be if the installer had not flushed the system before hooking up the boiler? There was a lot of sediment in the system.
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 11-04-13 at 07:49 AM. Reason: Fixed header....
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Old 11-04-13, 07:51 AM
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I just had a Weil McLain 97+70 boiler installed to provide hot water to my radiant heat system. Its not working properly.
I dont think sediment but we would need more info and specifics on how the unit is piped. Pics work best..

What is the exact issue? Lack of heat?

What was installed before this and did that work fine?

Lets start there...
 
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Old 11-04-13, 08:10 AM
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The installation was completed last Thursday. Early Friday morning I was awakened by what I thought was my dog groaning intermittently. When I went downstairs I realized it was the boiler. It would turn on, then turn off after about 30 seconds, making that noise. After an hour or so, I called the installer and he came back to take a look. He'd had two of his employees actually do the installation. I asked him if the system had been flushed and he said of course, that would be the only way to get water to the boiler. I asked him how, and he started showing me the manifold and unscrewing the caps. When I pointed out that this was for purging air, he said that he was sure his guy would have flushed the system, probably had taken a hose out the back door, etc. Then he fiddled around with the controls and shortly afterward asked me for my garden hose, hooked it up in the mechanical room and ran it outside over a ledge for a bit.

He read the manual awhile, and then turned the target on the control way up. He said it would probably stay on for two days before it shut off, but wouldn't keep cycling on and off. He said he'd make some phone calls on Monday and get back to me.

The boiler stayed on continuously from Friday evening until I finally turned off the power and closed the gas supply on Sunday night - by then it was 80 degrees in the house and still rising. The return water temp was up to 107 degrees, with a supply of 133.



The control is telling me that it is actually about 7 degrees colder outside than it really is. The outdoor temp sensor is on the wall about a foot from the air intakes and outlets for both this boiler and the domestic hot water heater.

Any ideas of what's going on here? Oh, I used to have an A.O. Smith water heater to heat the radiant heat supply. It lasted 19 years and then gave out, which is why I purchased this boiler.
 
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Old 11-04-13, 08:16 AM
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Can you take pics?? I would like to see how this was piped as there are specfics with this boiler.. Some installers dont have a clue and try to install them like regular boilers...


Posting the manbuals for convienience.

Let me look through the install manual here.

http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets...anual_0113.pdf

Here is the user manual


http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets...al_%200113.pdf
 
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Old 11-04-13, 09:17 AM
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I guess the question is if the valve 5 is opened or closed and how the rest of the system is piped.

Are they using just the internal pump?

And then the daunting task of going through the settings of the controls...


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Old 11-04-13, 11:55 AM
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I will get some photos and send them tomorrow. I did purchase a separate circulator pump, but didn't notice it when I looked at the finished job. Would that possibly have been installed inside the boiler unit? I can ask the installer if valve 5 is open or closed. I only have one zone, if that has any significance in this.

Should an outside temp sensor be located within a foot of the air vents for this and the other water heater? I saw steam coming from those yesterday.

Thanks.
 
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Old 11-04-13, 12:24 PM
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Would that possibly have been installed inside the boiler unit?
No.........


Should an outside temp sensor be located within a foot of the air vents for this and the other water heater?
Probably should be farther IMO, but I would check the manual...


The return water temp was up to 107 degrees, with a supply of 133.
This seems normal to me..

by then it was 80 degrees in the house and still rising.
With infloor heat its easy to overshoot the temp... Possibly its just proper t stat adjustment of the anticipater.

and then turned the target on the control way up. He said it would probably stay on for two days before it shut off, but wouldn't keep cycling on and off.

I have to read the manual more... Not a lot of time today... Curious to the piping layout... But also wonder what he turned up?

The unit should probably cycle on and off and thats normal. Its trying to maintain temp as the radiant floor heat may cool the water more rapidly.

But IMO you should not by pass the ODR if thats what he did.
 
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Old 11-06-13, 07:46 AM
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Here is the latest - I have to be fast as I'm at work, so don't have time to upload photos. I got another guy to come look at this yesterday and he called someone who supposedly knows these boilers well. They say that the circulator inside the boiler is just moving water inside in a loop. And that without the external circulator the supplier sold me with the boiler it would just keep cutting off which is exactly what was happening. What the first guy turned up was the target temp. By the way, I emailed those folks yesterday about my circulator - not only did they not install it, but they took it when they left. They returned it, still in the box in which it was shipped to me. Meanwhile, they were supposed to research this and get back to me and I've heard nothing since Saturday morning. The guy who was here yesterday is going to come back and install my circulator later this week and hopefully all will be well. Do you think I should replace my current thermostat, which I put in in 1996? Thanks!
 
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Old 11-06-13, 12:52 PM
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Just close that valve # 5 and you may be fine....Put the target back to where it was...

I still want to see pics because it sounds like a botched job...

I will look through the docs later.... You may not need that other circ.... Its only one zone correct?
 
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Old 11-06-13, 02:14 PM
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photos

Here are some photos. I'm curious to hear your opinion. The 1/2 inch pipe on the very top in one or two of these is a loop from the water softener.
 
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Old 11-06-13, 02:18 PM
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in the third photo, the pvc pipe that says "out" is actually from a separate water heater, not from this boiler. It looks like # 5 is already closed, yes?
 
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Old 11-06-13, 02:44 PM
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I dont see an issue so far. Can you take a pic from afar?

1. Do you only have one zone?
2 Are you concerned with the cycling or do you have problems heating.
3 Is this radiant in slab or under floor?
 
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Old 11-07-13, 11:03 AM
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I can't get a picture from more of a distance. I have one zone in regard to not having two distinct temp controlled areas. I have one manifold with 3 loops that serves most of the house - pex tubing in a cement slab. I have another loop, with no manifold, that heats a small addition. The supply pipe tees off and goes in one direction for the manifold and the opposite direction for the loop to the addition. Photo attached shows the return piping for both of these. The issue is that I can't get heat when the boiler is turned to the temp it should be at - it keeps shutting off after 30 seconds. When it is turned way up it does not shut off at all - I turned it off myself after 2 days when it got to be above 80 degrees in the house.
 
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Old 11-07-13, 12:47 PM
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I am not sure that set up is adiquite for radient heat...
Using that circ only for the boiler and the system side I believe the head is to great and your flow rate is diminish severly..

Says this in the manual.. They really have to calculate the head in the system to determine. You have radiant.

For systems other than finned tube or cast iron baseboard
Use the CIRCULATOR HEAD AVAILABLE to
determine whether the boiler circulator can provide the flow
needed. (See Figure 52, page 45.)


They may be raining the temp to compensate not enough flow. They your boiler becomes just like any other boiler and not as efficient as it could be. Plus you do not want your radient in the slab to produce more then 140f water I believe.

What did they set the target temp at???

IMO is should be piped with the additional circ and that #5 valve open.

fig 53 page 46...


http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets...anual_0113.pdf


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Wait for others to chime in....
 
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Old 11-07-13, 01:14 PM
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IM sorry... read page 50... You need a circulator for each zone on the radiant system... This is how it should be piped.


http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/assets...anual_0113.pdf





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Old 11-07-13, 01:27 PM
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Thank you, this is very helpful. They set the target originally at 80 - that's the target temp for the slab, right? When it wouldn't stay on they set it for something like 140 or more - possibly even 180. If I turn the system on again will it tell me what the last settings were?

Does the second loop I have, the one that doesn't pass through the manifold, constitute a separate zone, or does it just increase the need for the additional circulator to push the water through the system?

Thank you. I will be sure the person who fixes this calculates the head.
 
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Old 11-07-13, 02:16 PM
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They may be able to add that small loop to another smaller loop. They need to know how many feet of radient you have in the floor..

But you have one zone right? 1 t stat only?

I have my head in my butt today... You probably only need one circ for the zone, but they need to size correctly.. It may be a big pump.. Multiple circs would be for multi zones...
 
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Old 11-07-13, 02:19 PM
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Plus you do not want your radient in the slab to produce more then 140f water I believe.
140 is a bit high... 120 is about max. In any case you don't want the floor surface above 85.
 
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Old 11-08-13, 09:55 AM
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yes, one thermostat. the circulator I have is a Taco. stock # T007F57IFC. A pretty hefty unit. When I bought the boiler and circulator at Fergusen's I told them the details including the square footage. I'm assuming they knew what to sell me. Now if the installer had only put it in, I'd be in good shape!
 
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Old 11-08-13, 09:58 AM
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True. And I prefer a cooler house to a warmer one.
 
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Old 11-13-13, 08:43 AM
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Thanks for the help. The circulator is installed and all is now fine.
 
 

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