Help Boiler clanking and tripping out

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Old 11-09-13, 07:30 PM
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Help Boiler clanking and tripping out

I recently drained the water from my hot water boiler and fixed some leaks in the baseboard piping. I filled the system and bled the air. The heat has been working for a few weeks but the upper floors have not been getting warm so I think there may have been some air in left in the system. Today it starting making a loud clanking noise when it starts up and I suspect the circulating pump may be bad. It seems like the run capacitor is bad but I am not sure. Any help you have to offer would be greatly appreciated. I would replace the capacitor to try it but I do not know where to buy one on a sunday.
 
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Old 11-09-13, 07:42 PM
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the upper floors have not been getting warm so I think there may have been some air in left in the system
Probably... and your system may be running with low pressure.

Please read the temperature/pressure gauge and tell us what both are reading.

oday it starting making a loud clanking noise when it starts up
Does this loud noise continue the entire time that the circulator is running?

What is the make/model of the circulator?
 
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Old 11-09-13, 08:01 PM
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The pressure was about 10-11 and temperature was around 100 when it turned on and starting clanking and the pipes were shaking. The pressure went up to about 15-16 and temperature went to 190. It is a bell and gossett circulator SLC-30. Thanks for the quick reply
 
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Old 11-09-13, 08:08 PM
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It is making the clanking noise the whole time the boiler burner is going. It quits when the burner shuts off. I am not sure how to tell if the circulator is running. It shows about .6 amps when I put an amprobe on the wire. Also the base boards closest to the boiler get hot but that is it.
 
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Old 11-09-13, 08:14 PM
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Your pressure is probably OK if your gauge is to be trusted.

Read this for more info about gauge accuracy:

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...ure-gauge.html

Does this loud noise continue the entire time that the circulator is running?
And it sounds like a rhythmic 'hammering'... right?

No, it is not the capacitor, it is the COUPLER if that's the case.

A capacitor bad and the pump won't start.
 
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Old 11-09-13, 08:16 PM
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OK, you posted again while I was replying..

I'm certain that your coupler is bad, and that you have air in the system still.

I'm looking for your pump model to find the replacement coupler now... standby on that.

[late edit... WRONG! thinking of a different pump... that pump does not have a coupler!]

How did you bleed the air?
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-09-13 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 11-09-13, 08:24 PM
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https://plus.google.com/116257167195...ts/bGWHHcamtke

The link above should take you to pictures. I hooked a hose to the valve at the to pf the supply like and closed the return valve. I put the hose in a bucket and drained it till no air came out. It did seem like air kept getting in the system though. Also I sound is not very rhythmic. It is a loud clanking about 2-10 seconds apart.
 
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Old 11-09-13, 08:25 PM
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Ya know ... I'm not sure now what pump you've got... finding different info on the net ...

Can you possibly take a picture of the pump and post here?

It might not be your coupler...

You're sure you re-opened all the valves and such after you worked on it?
 
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Old 11-09-13, 08:32 PM
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I am pretty certain but I will double check. the boiler just started making that loud noise today and I have been using the heat for a month or so since I bled it. You should be able to see the grey pump in the link below but I will go take a better picture.
 
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Old 11-09-13, 08:33 PM
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Yeah... not the coupler.

Does that red label next to the pipe under the pump say " INLET " ?
 
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Old 11-09-13, 08:45 PM
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Yes it does. When I bled the system I used the hose connected on the other side of the boiler and turned the blue valve off next to the valve the hose is connected to. I also added pictures of the pump to the link below on google plus. Thanks again for helping with this.
 
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Old 11-09-13, 08:48 PM
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What does the coupler look like? I am new to working on these things. I though you were talking about the pump.
 
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Old 11-09-13, 08:57 PM
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When I bled the system I used the hose connected on the other side of the boiler and turned the blue valve off next to the valve the hose is connected to
That may be correct... but with all that Reynolds wrap all around it's hard to tell where the pipes are going and such.

Closing that blue valve is the 'detour' to the water so that it goes through the zones and not take the path of least resistance through the boiler? I think the answer is yes...

The home only has one zone? the pipes split to go upstairs and downstairs on the same zone?

Any way to bleed them independently of each other?

About the pump:

I guess you could TRY the capacitor if you can find one, but I doubt that's the problem. That pump is discontinued from what I can tell... so you might just be better off replacing it with something like a Taco 007 ...

BUT... what if it's not a problem with the pump at all?

What if your pressure gauge is lying to you and you've got less pressure in the system than you should?

What if what you are hearing is 'kettling' in the boiler? (and this can definitely occur from not enough flow on those boilers!)

So, if the pump IS bad and there isn't enough flow, then the boiler could be kettling because of that.

Those boilers are supposed to be installed with a SYSTEM BYPASS to insure there is enough flow through the boiler.

Does your boiler have a SYSTEM BYPASS VALVE? IS it OPEN?
 
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Old 11-09-13, 08:58 PM
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What does the coupler look like? I am new to working on these things. I though you were talking about the pump.
I was. Your pump doesn't have a coupler. I thought you had a different pump... so scratch that.
 
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Old 11-09-13, 09:06 PM
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I will get a gage and verify pressure tomorrow. It does sound like it could be kittling. I have only one zone from what I can tell. I did not check the expansion tank pressure after I refilled the system. What will cause low pressure other than the pump? Are the pumps universal because I don't want to have to change the piping and it would be nice if it just bolted in. Where would the system bypass valve be? Thanks for all the help and I am sorry that I am so green when it comes to these things.
 
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Old 11-09-13, 09:43 PM
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I did not check the expansion tank pressure after I refilled the system.
You don't want to check AFTER refilling, but BEFORE refilling. If there is pressure on the boiler, you will not get an accurate reading. Tank looks new... why was it moved to 'stand on it's head' like that, rather than hanging from the green air scoop where it probably was?

Read this... there's instructions for properly setting the air charge in the tank, step by step, follow exactly!

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...sion-tank.html
 
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Old 11-09-13, 09:51 PM
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What will cause low pressure other than the pump?
Pump won't cause low pressure.

That B&G valve up high, the one with the handle on it (FB-38 I believe) ... that is your pressure reducing valve and it sets the minimum pressure on the boiler. They sometimes get plugged up.

If you have any small leaks in the system, the pressure can slowly drop... and if that valve is plugged up and the MANUAL shut off valve is closed, you can see a pressure drop.
 
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Old 11-09-13, 09:52 PM
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Are the pumps universal because I don't want to have to change the piping and it would be nice if it just bolted in.
Measure the FLANGE TO FLANGE distance on the pump. If it is 6-5/8" the Taco 007 should bolt right in.
 
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Old 11-09-13, 10:01 PM
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Where would the system bypass valve be?
This would be a pipe and valve that is in between the HOT SUPPLY OUT of the boiler, and the RETURN pipe back to the boiler.

Maybe this diagram will help?



Don't worry about what is says about "depriving the system of flow" ... because the Lars boilers MUST have this bypass installed according to the manufacturer.

So, look for a pipe that looks like a 'short circuit' on the boiler...

I am sorry that I am so green when it comes to these things.
Not a problem! We all gotta start somewhere, right?
 
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Old 11-10-13, 08:12 AM
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I did not see a bypass installed as shown above. I have all valves open as far as they go.

I sketched a diagram of my boiler piping and attached it on the Google link below. I also included a video of the noises it is making. When I bled the system again this morning I turned off valves 4 and 5 as shown in the diagram and drained it into a bucket attached to valve 2.

It appears that pressure is building in the boiler and it is shutting off when max pressure is reached. The first 15 feet of baseboard heaters are warm but the others are ice cold.

I also measured the pump and it was 6 7/16" from outside to outside of the flanges.

https://plus.google.com/116257167195...ts/bGWHHcamtke
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-10-13 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 11-10-13, 09:02 AM
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Ken, don't run that until this is fixed. It's very possible to damage that heat exchanger inside...

Does the pressure gauge 'jump' when it does that? I was hoping you would stay on the gauge while it was making the noise.

What's the full model number of the boiler? It's been a while since I've looked at a manual for one of them, I want to refresh my memory.

measured the pump and it was 6 7/16" from outside to outside of the flanges.
The piping under that wrap is copper, yes? I think you would have no problem fitting in a Taco 007.

Looking at your diagram, I don't see how you can effectively purge the system like that.

Wouldn't the water simply come in the green pipe and right out the valve on that same green pipe?

How would it travel through the system?

You could very well have little to no water in that system!

Please relate the valve numbers to which valve is which... for example, which one is the 'blue' valve that you closed to fill and purge?

Which valves are DRAINS, and which are SHUT OFFs?

When you filled and purged, did you manually open the zone valves? Wait, scratch that... I just looked at your diagram again and I noticed that what I thought were electric zone valves are thermometers... I just didn't read it. Saw what I thought were wiring, but it was arrows...

Once again, do NOT run the boiler again until you get this sorted out or you will be looking for a new boiler soon.
 
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Old 11-10-13, 09:39 AM
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Ken, here's a link to the manual for your boiler... I think it's a "JV" isn't it?

http://www.laars.com/LinkClick.aspx?...edownload=true

Pay particular attention to section 5 and all the warnings about proper flow. Note that ALL the piping diagrams indicate that a system bypass or primary/secondary piping is to be used.
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-10-13 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 11-10-13, 09:58 AM
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I do not see a link to a manual above.

The boiler is a Teledyne Laars Model JVT125N dj

The gauge goes up fast but I didn't notice it jumping when it was making the noise. The pipes do tend to shake when it clanks. When I first refilled the system started it up and bled it all the pipes were getting warm. It appeared to be working ok for a month or so but yesterday it started making that loud noise and the pipes are cold.

There is some water in the system because I get water when i open the bleed valves at the radiators on the main and second floor. There are only two drains valves on the system. The one in the picture on the supply line and the one on the bottom of the boiler. I am not sure how to properly bleed the system.

As far as replacing the pump some of the pipes are cast iron and some are copper. I think the connections to the pump are cast iron.
 
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Old 11-10-13, 01:41 PM
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I do not see a link to a manual above.
That's because Mr. Doomazz forgot to include it! It's there now!

There are only two drains valves on the system. The one in the picture on the supply line and the one on the bottom of the boiler. I am not sure how to properly bleed the system.
Is that drawing actually PHYSICALLY accurate? The drain valve you were using is on the fill pipe leading to the boiler piping? NOT actually 'in-line' with any of the boiler circulation? If so, I think for some reason you 'got lucky' in the fact that any water went into the system at all.

You do see my point about not getting any water into the boiler if that drawing is correct, yes? I want to make sure you understand WHY you might still have air in the system.

We are going to have to get 'creative' in order to purge the air from the system.

First, shut the boiler OFF and allow it to cool to 100F or less.

If you have an old washing machine hose with two female ends you can use that. Might have to buy one or use the one connected to the washing machine if you don't have a spare one laying around.

The idea is to use the drain valve on the boiler to feed water into the system from an 'external' source, and use the drain that you were previously using as the outlet.

Connect a garden hose to the drain on the boiler. To the end of the garden hose connect the washing machine hose.

Connect your drain hose to the drain on the feed line.

CLOSE valve #1, you are using an alternate water source for this.

CLOSE valve #3.

CLOSE valve #4. (leave #5 open for now, this is the one we'll do first.

OPEN the water source to the garden hose, leaving the boiler drain closed.

OPEN the drain #2. (that 5 gallon cooler might not be big enough, you will have to empty it a few times)

SLOWLY! OPEN the boiler drain on the boiler and feed water into the boiler watching the pressure gauge to be sure that you don't go over 30 PSI and open your relief valve. MODULATE that valve to try to maintain around 20-25 PSI on the gauge as you are purging. When stopping the process to empty the bucket, always close the boiler drain FIRST, and the hose drain SECOND so that you don't blow the relief valve.

Water will be fed into the boiler, will travel up and through the zone, and out the drain, pushing the air ahead of it.

When no more bubbles,
CLOSE the boiler drain,
CLOSE the drain hose,
CLOSE valve #5,
OPEN valve #4
and repeat the process to push the water and air through the other loop.

When no more bubbles,
CLOSE boiler drain,
CLOSE drain hose,
OPEN valve #5
OPEN valve #3
OPEN valve #1

You should now have all the air out of the system.

If you STILL have the banging, STOP... and consider replacing the pump.

As far as replacing the pump some of the pipes are cast iron and some are copper. I think the connections to the pump are cast iron.
The reason I asked about copper pipe was because it will likely be flexible enough to take up the 1/4" or so of difference in the flange to flange dimension.
 
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Old 11-10-13, 05:06 PM
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Years ago I had the occasion to put 18 of these to replace a huge oil boiler in an apt. house. My experience with these are they are very low water content boilers and without flow even though there is water they will heat up so fast they want to make steam. I never heard the term ketteling but it sounds like the same thing. It always astounded me why T.L. didn't have a flow switch incorporated somehow as a safety.
To get back on track I noticed you have no flocheck valve installed and only a small portion of pipe gets hot, probably by conduction which means there's no flow.
My suggestion is to disconnect the circulator wiring, it's line voltage, attach a cord and plug in to an outlet and see if it runs. If it doesn't, replace it. If is does you've eliminated one cause.
With your circulator disconnected from the boiler, start the boiler and see if you get the same sound. My guess is you will and you will find you need a new pump.
It really doesn't take long and it might shed some light on the project.
Good Luck.
 
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Old 11-10-13, 06:01 PM
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Thanks for the information. I know there is voltage to the pump. I am having trouble determining if it is running though. How can I tell if the pump is running? One thing I find strange is the pump appears to be wired to run any time there is power to the furnace.
 
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Old 11-10-13, 06:05 PM
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Thanks for all the help so far. I will try that procedure in the morning. I hooked the hose to the drain on the boiler this morning just to see if it had water in it. The thing that puzzles me is it worked ok for a month then started making all that noise. I am thinking I did not get all the air out and it caused the pump to go bad. Where would you suggest I purchase the Taco pump?
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-10-13 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 11-10-13, 07:15 PM
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You need to get to a 'known point'...

Based on your piping diagram, in my opinion, there is no way that you could have gotten all the air out if you trying to purge the way you were.

So, the 'known point' that you need to get to FIRST is KNOWING that you have all the air out.

After that, THEN worry about the pump.

I'm trying to lead you logically through the best troubleshooting...

I have a suspicion that the pump is OK.

Where would you suggest I purchase the Taco pump?
Our local Home Depot carries the 007. It's a VERY common pump.
 
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Old 11-10-13, 07:45 PM
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As far the pump goes it is wired so that pump does run when the boiler runs. If it doesn't, because of boiler design it creates a problem like the one you're having now.
Trooper is right though about the air, especially in that boiler because any air will hamper the flow.
If you try the pump seperately put the metal end of a screwdriver on the motor and the other end to your ear and you'll hear it or not.
As far as buying one try plumbing & heating supply house if you have one near buy or the home centers have them depending on your size. Don't forget to get your pipe size if you go that route.
 
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Old 11-10-13, 08:32 PM
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I agree with you and I am planning to try to bleed it in the morning. I thought it was a long shot it would bleed through the same line it was fed through. It would be great if it is only air in the system. Thanks for all the help.
 
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Old 11-10-13, 08:37 PM
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I think it is actually wired to run when there is power to the boiler whether it is on or not. It is tied directly to the hot wire coming to the boiler. How do I determine what flange size my pump is?
 
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Old 11-10-13, 08:49 PM
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It is tied directly to the hot wire coming to the boiler.
Not sure why someone would do this with your system... but OK... I guess it is what it is then.

How do I determine what flange size my pump is?
Not sure what you mean Ken?

You don't need to change the flanges. The 007 should bolt right up to them.
 
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Old 11-11-13, 04:54 AM
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Is the circulating pump normally feed a hot when when the furnace is activated by the thermostat?

I was curious if the flange size was standard. I am going to bleed the system as you described today and if that doesn't work I will change the pump and go from there.

Are there any additional steps required when changing the pump other than bolting it in and bleeding the system?
 
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Old 11-11-13, 08:16 AM
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Yes, in your case the pump comes on with the boiler.
As long as the new pump fits the space you have you shouldn't have to change the flanges. They are standard size. Make sure you get the gaskets with the pump. They should be in the box, if not you'll have to buy them.
No additional steps for the pump.
 
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Old 11-11-13, 09:40 AM
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Update

I tried to bleed the system through the boiler drain as described below and it did not work as described. The water would not back flow through the system. Only about a gallon of water cam out the top. I tried opening valve three and that made a bit more water come out but it stopped after about another gallon. Do you have any other recommendations on a way to bleed the system.

I installed a new capacitor and the system is working again and not making that loud noise but I don't have heat on the second floor. I think there is still air trapped in the system. I was able to bleed some air at the baseboards in various rooms. any additional advice you have to offer would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Ken
 
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Old 11-11-13, 10:13 AM
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Unless there are some flow-check valves that you haven't told us about, or something else blocking the flow, there is no reason that you should not have been able to 'back-feed' the water into that boiler drain and have it flow through the system.

You did understand that you need to hook the hose on the boiler drain up to a water source, right?

You are not DRAINING from that drain, but rather using it in reverse to feed water back INTO the boiler...
 
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Old 11-11-13, 10:35 AM
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I hooked the water hose to the drain as described an closed and opened valves as you suggested. I am not sure what was preventing it from flowing. It started flowing out initially then it stopped and the pressure in the system went from 15psi to zero. Could it have been vapor locked preventing it from flowing or possibly not enough water pressure to push it through the bottom to the second floor? The baseboards on the second floor are stone cold. There is water in them though because after some air came out bleeding them water started to come out.
 
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Old 11-11-13, 11:07 AM
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I don't think you understand what I'm saying Ken...

You need to hook the hose on the BOILER drain up to a GARDEN HOSE FAUCET in your home so that you can feed water INTO the boiler from the domestic side.

You are not going to drain from both drains....

You are only going to drain from one drain and feed water INTO the boiler on the other.

possibly not enough water pressure to push it through the bottom to the second floor?
Domestic water pressure is usually at least 50 PSI, and that is more than enough.
 
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Old 11-11-13, 11:46 AM
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I think I do have it hooked up correctly. I am feeding water into the boiler from the boiler drain at the very bottom of the boiler and have a hose hooked to valve number two to drain into a bucket. I understand the concept and it should push fresh water through the whole system and push the air out. I am not sure why it will not work either. When I try that the mister on top of the air scoop starts drawing air in. I hope I am not frustrating you. It seems like there is a valve that is off in the system but they are all open. Thanks for the help and please let me know if you have any other ideas.
 
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Old 11-11-13, 02:20 PM
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No, not frustrated, just completely confused...

You've definitely got water pressure on the filling hose?

Try reversing the two hoses and see what happens...
 
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