Need help replacing circulator pump


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Old 11-13-13, 05:08 PM
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Need help replacing circulator pump

It appears that my circulator pump is leaking from inside. I'm guessing that it is a seal or something inside. So the plan is to replace the current pump with a new one. Maybe a Taco, or a Grundfos. The current pump is a little bit older, its a Bell and Gosset Little Red Rooster pump (LR20BF). Basically i just need help planning out the change. I am going to post some pictures along with this post, and i was hoping some of you could clear up whats in the pictures, and how to bleed the system of air after. I can't seem to find the regulator on my system. I know normally there is an override to add more water when refilling the system. However i can't seem to find one. Is it the valve in the pics below? that valve has a little knob on top that is adjustable. Is that just a normal valve? Is the reducer the little valve above the expander? Is it normal to have a shutoff for the water right before the expander?

Thank you!
 
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Old 11-13-13, 06:05 PM
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It appears that my circulator pump is leaking from inside.
From inside of what? Can you pinpoint in the photo where it is leaking? It may just be a gasket.
 
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Old 11-13-13, 06:44 PM
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I can't seem to find the regulator on my system. I know normally there is an override to add more water when refilling the system. However i can't seem to find one.
What you've got there is a " FILL-TROL " system. The fill valve is the brass thingy that the expansion tank is screwed into.

amtrol.client.sprintout.com/media/documents/boiler_fill/filltrol.pdf

So unless there's a regular valve on a bypass line around that valve, you have no fast fill capability.

What you CAN do though when you are bleeding is to jack up the pressure in the tank to 25 PSI and this will in turn jack the system pressure up to 25 PSI. Still won't 'fast fill', but you'll have an easier time bleeding with higher pressure in the system. When done bleeding, return the tank pressure to 12 PSI.

That expansion tank is SPECIAL. A 'regular' tank from HD or Lowes will NOT work with your system. Because standard tanks do not have that valve actuator rod built in, no water will enter the system if you use a standard tank.

Amtrol Fill-Trol , Amtrol Fill-Trol Expansion Tanks , Amtrol Expansion Tanks - PexSupply.com

Is it the valve in the pics below? that valve has a little knob on top that is adjustable. Is that just a normal valve? Is the reducer the little valve above the expander? Is it normal to have a shutoff for the water right before the expander?
That valve in the first picture appears to be a regular shutoff valve but I can't tell for sure from the perspective of the photo (too close).

What do you mean a " ... little knob on top ... " ?

When you say 'expander', I think you mean 'expansion tank' ?

Yes, it is normal for there to be a shutoff on the water line that feeds the boiler, ahead of the fill valve.

More pics from further away might be helpful... let us see all the pipes and valves around the boiler.
 
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Old 11-13-13, 07:44 PM
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Leak

Gilmorrie - The leak is coming from the bottom of the pump. The picture in this post depicts where the leak is coming from. Where the pump is sort of green there on the bottom side. That is where the leak is coming from. If this is just a gasket, can you go into a little more detail on the repair? For the repair, would i still have to take the pump off?
 
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Old 11-13-13, 07:55 PM
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Pics

[See pics in album in later post]

More info:
Its a Hydrotherm boiler. The pipe coming into the pump is the return line, it them goes into the boiler and back up through the top. That is the like that connects to the expansion tank, and the water input line. The water input line is the one with the shutoff, and the little knob on top.

You indicated i could boost the pressure up. What do i adjust to do this? is it something on that brass valve on top of the expansion tank?


Thanks alot to both of you. I really appreciate the information.
 

Last edited by NJT; 11-13-13 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 11-13-13, 07:59 PM
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Yeah... well... our forum does not 'like' t i n y p i c dot com so it replaced the URL with *****

Please use Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing instead.
 
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Old 11-13-13, 08:07 PM
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You indicated i could boost the pressure up. What do i adjust to do this? is it something on that brass valve on top of the expansion tank?
No... not exactly... from previous post:

jack up the pressure in the tank to 25 PSI and this will in turn jack the system pressure up to 25 PSI
Please read the attachment I posted from Amtrol about how your valve works.
 
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Old 11-13-13, 08:10 PM
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Pics

Yeah i noticed. I tried to fix them but it still didn't work. I am uploading all the pics now to photobucket. There will be alot more to see once i get them up. I have added descriptions underneath the photos.

Photos:
Boiler Photos by cpentasuglia | Photobucket

Just doubled checked the link. Should be all set now. They are in the boiler album.
 
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Old 11-13-13, 08:17 PM
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Yes, that is a normal shutoff valve. That small knob on top is a 'drain' that would allow one to drain the pipes 'downstream' of the valve. In this case, useless, no point in it, it's just there.
 
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Old 11-13-13, 08:27 PM
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Take a wrench and 'snug up' that rusty nut. Under that nut is a 'packing' material that is squeezed around the valve stem to keep from leaking. It's been leaking a little bit. When I say 'snug up', don't "Kramer it"... just lightly tweak it a little tighter.

Before you close that valve, clean that crud off with a small wire brush.

 
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Old 11-14-13, 04:32 AM
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NJ Trooper

Sounds good. So just to make sure i understand (this is my first time working with a boiler, and heating system). I am going to the run through the steps of the repair i am planning to do, and i just want to make sure they sound correct.

1. Shut off the gas and electric to the pump and boiler.

2. Shut off the water input valve.

3. Open the drain that is below the pump, and drain the water out of the system (unfortunately my system does not have shut off valves anywhere but the main water. So i will need to drain the entire system right?

4. Repair or replace the pump.

5. Increase the tank pressure to 25 PSI (do i do this by just adding air? I've never checked but i'm guessing that's what the spout if for on the bottom of the expansion tank?) Leaving the drain open.

6. Allow water to run through until i get a constant flow, and then shut off the valve? When i shut off the valve, and the pressure in the tank is still 25. Will this cause that emergency valve by the pressure gauge to activate? Or is that not enough pressure to set it off.

7. Decrease pressure to 12psi.

Do i need to adjust or drain any of the little nozzles on the radiator pipes themselves? I've heard that doing this helps remove any air that has risen to the pipes in the floor. How well does the air purger work for correct any of the air that is left? Please let me know if i am missing any steps, and also if you think it is worth attempting to fix the pump Vs getting a new one. Is the pump i have a good one? I notice that the new ones are self oiling, and mine requires oil. Is this a special type of oil? I never realized that it needed oil until i saw the leak.

Thanks again!
 
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Old 11-14-13, 05:42 AM
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(unfortunately my system does not have shut off valves anywhere but the main water. So i will need to drain the entire system right?
Yes, it appears so. That was why I wanted more pictures to see if there were valves I could suggest you close to avoid having to drain the system.

Increase the tank pressure to 25 PSI (do i do this by just adding air? I've never checked but i'm guessing that's what the spout if for on the bottom of the expansion tank?) Leaving the drain open.
The 'spout' on the tank is a regular tire valve, a "Schrader" valve.

Yes, add air with small compressor or tire pump.

Before you shut off and drain the system to work on the pump though, do this:

Shut off the boiler and allow it to cool way down. Read the PRESSURE and TEMPERATURE from the gauge and let us know what you've got.

Take your tire gauge and measure the air pressure that is currently in the tank. If the boiler is quite cool, the pressure in the tank should compare closely with the pressure in the system. If it is more than a couple PSI different, you should probably verify the accuracy of the pressure gauge on the system before proceeding much further because it would indicate that the gauge is NFG.

So yes, before you close the drain and open the water supply, pump the air in the tank to 25 PSI, then close the drain and turn on the water. The system should automatically pressurize to 25 PSI.

more...
 
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Old 11-14-13, 06:25 AM
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Allow water to run through until i get a constant flow, and then shut off the valve? When i shut off the valve, and the pressure in the tank is still 25. Will this cause that emergency valve by the pressure gauge to activate? Or is that not enough pressure to set it off.
Need a bit more explanation here...

Since it doesn't appear that you have any other valves on your system that can be closed to keep the water UP in the piping, what that means is that when you go to refill the system you also have no way to 'direct' the water to go UP and fill the zone piping.

When you close the drain and turn the water back on, the BOILER will fill, and the pipes will fill only up to the level of the AUTOMATIC AIR VENT on the air scoop above the tank, but NOT the radiators and pipes above that point. They will still be filled with AIR which will be compressed to 25 PSI.

Let's talk about that AIR VENT. Make sure it's functional, because if it's NOT, while the system is drained would be the time to change it.

The small cap on top needs to be LOOSE to allow air to escape. If it is TIGHT, then OPEN IT before draining system. If WATER LEAKS out the cap, it needs to be replaced while the system is down.

As you drain the system, that valve will SUCK AIR IN, and that's a good thing because it will break the 'vacuum' that will form as you are draining and allow the water to flow OUT.

Yes, after you get the boiler filled, and air stops coming out of the automatic air vent, then you need to go to all the bleeders at the radiators and open them until a steady stream of water comes out. This is the only way that you will be able to fill the rest of the system since you don't have what we call a "purge station"

By the way, before you refill and purge, MANUALLY OPEN the two zone valves. There should be a lever on the valve for this purpose.

I would also suggest that you replace two more things while the system is down for service...

The BOILER DRAIN below the pump. Replace that with a 1/4 turn BALL VALVE boiler drain, many different 'styles':


image courtesy ferguson.com


image courtesy ahturf.com

Chances are always pretty good that old drain valves won't shut off without leaking.

Also, the PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE should be changed. It appears original to the install. It is wise to change it now. When doing so, I would recommend that it be installed correctly, which technically, now it is NOT. They should be installed with the valve stem pointing UP.

To do this, you will need a short pipe nipple out of the existing TEE, an elbow turned UP, with new relief valve on top. Then, a STREET ELBOW out of the valve pointing DOWN, with a pipe to within 6" of the floor.

WRONG! In more ways than one! The outlet pipe size should NEVER be reduced!

image courtesy inspectapedia.com

RIGHT:

image courtesy masterplumber.net
 
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Old 11-14-13, 06:30 AM
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Will this cause that emergency valve by the pressure gauge to activate? Or is that not enough pressure to set it off.
Not enough pressure.

Relief valve is 30 PSI rating.

If you HEAT THE BOILER with 25 PSI in it though, you can expect the relief valve to open because as the water heats, the pressure will rise and go above 30 PSI.

So, before heating the boiler, after bleeding, turn off the water supply to the boiler again, open the drain and let the pressure drop BELOW 12 PSI ... let's say TEN PSI.

Let air out of expansion tank so that you have 12 PSI in the tank.

Reopen the water supply and the boiler pressure should climb to 12 PSI.

Then you should be 'good to go'.
 
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Old 11-14-13, 09:52 AM
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I guess you won't know until you take it apart exactly where it's leaking from, but here is a parts list. Pex Supply has the body gasket for like $2.00 ...

 
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Old 11-14-13, 09:57 AM
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Bleeding

So is the bleeding of my system a little different than the tradition bleed? In mine I don't really bleed until i do the radiators right? Instead of leaving the drain valve open, i just close it and turn the water back on? Traditionally would you leave the drain valve open and then run the water until it pushed the air out if you don't have an air vent?

I will definitely take your advice on the valve changes. So just to be 100% sure. When i get to the point where i want to re-introduce water into the system I:

1. Close the drain valve
2. Turn the supply line back on (this should push the air through the air vent)
At this point most of the system should be re-pressurized (25) right? All except the radiators.
3. Once full, open the drain until the system has been reduced to about 10 psi (water supply off). Then, let the air out of the tank (12 psi).
4. Lastly, turn the water back on and the system should re-pressurize to 12.

Once i turn the water on for the first time after re-connecting everything. You said that the water can't make it past that valve. Can it travel back up the return line, or will the pump stop it like a check valve?

So then after this in theory, all the air should be out, and the system should be at the right pressure? So then i just turn the electric and gas back on and let it run? Once i begin the procedure i will post the psi readings on here and keep you up to date. I really can't begin to tell you how much i appreciate your help and knowledge.
 
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Old 11-14-13, 01:44 PM
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Traditionally would you leave the drain valve open and then run the water until it pushed the air out if you don't have an air vent?
Every system is different in the way it's piped and valve. Your installers definitely went the 'economy' route and added absolutely NOTHING that wasn't absolutely needed to get the system operational. Typical 'builder special' job.

What this means is that you don't have the valves on your system that would make the type of 'purging' and 'bleeding' that you are talking about possible.

There would have to be at least two additional valves added to your system, and the pipe coming down from the ceiling to the pump would probably be the best place for them. You would need a DRAIN valve, and BELOW that a 'FULL PORT BALL VALVE'.

What these valves would allow you to do is 'direct' the water to flow through the zones, rather than take the path of least resistance and come in the fill line, down into the boiler, and right out the open drain at the bottom of the boiler.

Think about where you would go if you were the water trying to get out of the boiler. You would not detour up through the zones and out the boiler drain when all you had to do is run directly out the drain, right?

At this point most of the system should be re-pressurized (25) right? All except the radiators.
Actually, the whole system will be re-pressurized. It's just that a good portion of it will be pressurized with compressed air.

Yes, I believe you have the sequence correct...

You said that the water can't make it past that valve.
I'm not sure which statement you are referring to?

Can it travel back up the return line, or will the pump stop it like a check valve?
Some pumps have built in check valves, but I do not believe that yours does, so yes, the water can and will flow backward through it while you are removing the air from the radiators.

So then i just turn the electric and gas back on and let it run?
Yes, pretty much... but there's a 'down side' to opening a system for service and then refilling it with fresh water...

Fresh water has tons of 'air' dissolved in it. When this water is heated, that air will be driven out and form bubbles. You will likely hear the bubbles gushing through the system from time to time...

Your automatic air vent SHOULD catch most of those bubbles, but in reality it probably won't.

Be prepared to go around and bleed the radiators a few more times before all the air is out and the system is quiet again.

It can actually take weeks to get all the air out after a complete drain and refill.
 
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Old 11-14-13, 07:25 PM
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When i referring to the valve, i just meant the fill-trol valve you spoke of. I believe you said the water won't make it past that when filling the system.

Yeah i was disappointed when i realized that there was not valve above the pump. Can you describe where i should add these valves. You spoke of a drain valve, how is that different than the drain valve i currently have below the pump? I figured these would be a good place to add the valves because i have the ability to close the zones, so if i had a valve before the pump, i think i could have saved most of the water. So where do you suggest i add these valves. Would one go before the pump, and one after?

Good news. When i came home today i checked the valve on top of the air vent, and it was loose and there was no sign of water leaking out. Also i check the pressure gauge and it was dead on 12psi.

Another question, my radiator drains are on the bottom of the lines. So the access to them is easy because its from the basement, however ive heard they are more effective when they are on top because the air rises to the top of the lines. Are they okay being on the bottom of the lines that go up through the floor, vs up top under the little metal door on the radiator covers?
 
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Old 11-14-13, 08:00 PM
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When i referring to the valve, i just meant the fill-trol valve you spoke of. I believe you said the water won't make it past that when filling the system.
No, I don't recall saying that?

Can you describe where i should add these valves.
Would one go before the pump, and one after?
Both on the pipe ABOVE the pump... but how will you do that? Isn't it a steel pipe?

You spoke of a drain valve, how is that different than the drain valve i currently have below the pump?
A drain is a drain. It's the LOCATION of the drain that would allow it to be used to direct the water through the radiators as the system is being filled. And the fact that there would be a SHUTOFF valve BELOW that drain. I think I would need to draw something in order to explain it.

Another question, my radiator drains are on the bottom of the lines.
You need to show us those valves. Take pictures. They may not be bleeders after all. Time to re-group I'm afraid.

What type of radiators are they again? Cast iron?
 
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Old 11-15-13, 04:40 AM
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Shanon, please explain... what exactly is this "... pump valve ..." that you mention?

Did you look at the pictures?
 
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Old 11-15-13, 04:47 AM
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I've just looked at your pictures again and I believe that what looked as if it might be a steel pipe is in fact copper.

I'll make up a simple drawing to try and explain the valves that can be added optionally.

In the meantime though, please provide the photos of those valves you mentioned under the radiators.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 04:48 AM
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No, I don't recall saying that?
I apologize, this was an assumption on my part. I was referring to when you stated that the 25psi of air in the lines would stop the water from flowing into the radiators. I should have stated it better.

Both on the pipe ABOVE the pump... but how will you do that? Isn't it a steel pipe?
That pipe coming down is actually a copper pipe. Most of the piping is copper.

A drain is a drain. It's the LOCATION of the drain that would allow it to be used to direct the water through the radiators as the system is being filled. And the fact that there would be a SHUTOFF valve BELOW that drain. I think I would need to draw something in order to explain it.
Is this depiction correct

Ceiling
|
|
|Drain valve
|
|Ball valve
|
|Pump
|
|---Line into boiler
--|
^Boiler drain

That drain would allow me to completely segregate the radiator lines, and the boiler components right? That way when i work on something on either or i have some separation to keep water in some part of the system? Can you explain how that would allow me to redirect the water up? I'm apologize if i'm a little slow to catch on. Still learning with most of this.

You need to show us those valves. Take pictures. They may not be bleeders after all. Time to re-group I'm afraid.
I will add the new pics to my photobucket
Link: Boiler Photos by cpentasuglia | Photobucket

What type of radiators are they again? Cast iron?
They are just hydronic baseboard radiators. Plain old white ones along the floor.

Ps. I added three new pictures total. One of the bleeder, and two of the return coming down from the ceiling.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 04:55 AM
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Hmmmm... someone didn't understand the bosses instructions... must have been a 'greenie' on this job!



Yeah, those will do you ZERO good in bleeding the air out of the system. All you would succeed in doing is draining more water.

Are there none of these inside the cabinets of the baseboard? pointing UP, preferably on the downstream end where the pipe turns to go back into the floor?
 
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Old 11-15-13, 04:57 AM
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By the way, I've been meaning to ask...

One story home? or two?
 
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Old 11-15-13, 04:59 AM
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Yeah that is what i figured when i saw these. .

I've only check one cabinet so far and i didn't see them, but ill double check them when i get home. I know that each section in the basement has one like this on the bottom though. I figured they would be no good because the air will rise to the top and almost never escape from them. If there are non at the top, it would probably be worth adding them while everything is down right? They seem like they'd be a pain to solder up in the cabinets though because of the lack of room.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 05:03 AM
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It's a one story ranch. It has two zones, one zone for the all the bedrooms and one for the kitchen and living room.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 06:01 AM
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If there are nonE at the top, it would probably be worth adding them while everything is down right?
I don't think I would go to that much trouble. You're talking MAJOR PITA! I think in the long run though, you wouldn't be sorry... but trust me, you WON'T be a 'happy camper' doing this... and if you aren't fairly skilled with a soldering torch... prone to leaks, etc...

Here's a basic diagram. Note that if the system is completely drained and full of air, this is what happens as system is filled and pressurized. Fill water displaces air, air exits float vent until water fills vent and float closes valve, remaining air rises to top, is compressed to system pressure, and stays in baseboards.



If those bleeders had been properly placed at the TOP, inside the baseboard cabinets, they could simply be opened to release the trapped air.

Next post will show location of added 'purge station'... standby...
 
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Old 11-15-13, 06:46 AM
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This drawing shows how adding two valves comprising a 'purge station' allows one to 'direct' the water flow in the desired direction. Remember that water ALWAYS flows from high pressure to low pressure, and an open drain at the bottom of a system is always the lowest pressure point.



By the way, there are other options to the individual ball and drain valves...

There are circulator flanges with both valves built in. If you install these above and below the pump you'll never have to drain the system to work on a pump again!


image courtesy pexsupply.com

There are in-line ball valves with a full flow drain built in, and the main handle on this type of valve is reversible to enable the drain to drain EITHER SIDE of the main ball valve.


image courtesy pexsupply.com

Earlier you wondered if adding valve in return line would prevent having to drain system... yes, it would, and adding a FULL PORT ball valve in the hot supply line would be needed too.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 07:30 AM
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So those Webstone valves are like a combination FULL PORT ball valve, and drain valve right?


I think the best solution is to use the flange ones. If i can avoid doing this with such a loss in water again then that would be the best case scenario. Also with the flange valves, i don't have to cut and solder the old copper return. I can just remove the current flanges and add those.

I think that this is an excellent solution for my system. It is a great way to enhance the system for the future and solve the issue of air in the radiators. I plan to take all of you advice, and make everything correct. It's unfortunate that i have the issue i do with the pump, but the way i see it, now i can make the system better and fix the issue. I definitely would not have been able to do this without your help (at least not with the knowledge i posses now). I'm grateful to know as much as i do now about my system now.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 07:42 AM
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Pipe size

Actually i just noticed that with the size of those flanges i may need to adjust the pipes a little bit. No big deal though. I'm not really good with eye balling pipe sizes. Based upon the pictures, would you say that the copper return pipe is 3/4?

I was looking at these
40413 - Webstone 40413 - 3/4" IPS Isolator Flange with Drain (Pair)
 
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Old 11-15-13, 08:52 AM
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So those Webstone valves are like a combination FULL PORT ball valve, and drain valve right?
Yes.

Based upon the pictures, would you say that the copper return pipe is 3/4?
I had the impression that it was at least 1", but it's nearly impossible to tell from pictures.

I just looked again and can't really tell.

I would suspect that the piping between the baseboards is 3/4", and good practice would be to feed a pair of 3/4" from a single 1" ... so if that pipe is NOT 1", it probably should have been.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 10:15 AM
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It is indeed 1" pipe. It seems like they used black steel on that relief valve, shouldn't it be galvanized at the least? It is worth putting copper? The chances of that valve going off are hopefully slim. However it has me questioning if that tee at the bottom is black steel also or just dirty.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 10:42 AM
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It seems like they used black steel on that relief valve, shouldn't it be galvanized at the least? It is worth putting copper?
It probably should actually be copper. The problem with using steel is that it can rust up inside and block pipe off. Chances of this are pretty slim, but it can happen.

With that horizontal pipe off the valve in that fashion, that relief valve could drip...drip...drip... and not be noticed for a long time, all the while corroding the valve and pipe... until when you need it, it doesn't work.

This is why the pipe should turn vertical ASAP after coming out of the valve.

It's the valve manufacturers that specify vertical orientation of the valve.

The chances of that valve going off are hopefully slim.
Reasonably slim. As long as one does due diligence in monitoring the system pressure and keeping the expansion tank up to par, it might never open. I've not had one open on my system in over 30 years!

However it has me questioning if that tee at the bottom is black steel also or just dirty.
Tee at the bottom of what? The relief valve pipe?

Pipe at bottom of relief valve pipe must have NO THREADS per code. This is to stop someone thinking that it might be a good idea to put a pipe cap on the bottom of a leaking relief valve pipe... and then they wake up dead from a boiler explosion.

Or are you talking about the pipe coming out of the boiler and up to the pump? I'm pretty sure that's steel pipe... in fact positive it is. The pipe itself is threaded where the flange is screwed on.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 11:46 AM
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Yeah i see exactly what you mean with the pipes coming off the valve. I was just at Home Depot getting a few things and i asked the guy about steel pipes. He said that if it's black steel then it should never be used with water because it rusts almost instantly. Galvanized steel can be used, but copper is still the best. So my concern is that not only are those pipes from the relief valve steel, they look like black steel which rusts even worse (unless they are painted). So then i started to wonder if the tee at the bottom of the pump is black steel also. If its galvanized, then in theory it should be fine. I'm wondering if i should replace it with copper though.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 01:48 PM
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I was just at Home Depot getting a few things and i asked the guy about steel pipes. He said that if it's black steel then it should never be used with water because it rusts almost instantly.
Be very careful listening to the guys at HD. Truly there are some knowledgeable folks there who would be doing more with their education if they could find a job... but I think there are at least as many who don't have a clue, and your guy was technically correct... but probably doesn't understand the following...

It is TRUE that black steel (we actually call it black iron for some reason or other) should NEVER EVER be used for a potable water system, or any system that is OPEN to the atmosphere.

But it is perfectly fine for a CLOSED heating system. It's been used for over a century.

The reason is that the water in a heating system becomes INERT in a short period of time... meaning that the water carries with it no OXYGEN.

For rust to form, there must be three things: WATER, OXYGEN, FERROUS METAL

Take any one item from the triad and you won't have rust. In this case, by heating the water in a CLOSED system and driving out the Oxygen in a short time there can be no rust inside the pipes.

DO NOT worry about the pipes that carry the water in your heating system, they will not rust out.

On the other hand, the pipe from the relief valve is OPEN to the atmosphere and thus it's NOT a good idea to use black pipe for that vent. It is PERFECTLY OK to use black pipe and fittings on the BOILER SIDE of the relief valve.
 
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Old 11-15-13, 02:14 PM
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While I'm at it, a little bit about general plumbing...

Black pipe fittings have TAPERED THREADS, and these threads are designed to form a METAL TO METAL seal on the first few threads. In order to achieve this seal, there should be between 7 and 8 threads engaged on that fitting. What this means is that the fittings need to be a LOT TIGHTER than you might be inclined to believe. You will have to WORK to get those threads properly tightened.

This brings up the 'so-called' pipe sealants, both the paste and tape varieties...

TECHNICALLY they are NOT to be depended on to SEAL a threaded pipe joint! They were originally designed and labeled as a LUBRICANT and meant to only assist in getting the pipes tight enough so that they would not leak. Most are now labelled as a 'sealant' also... but don't count on it. If the joint is not tight enough, no matter how much sealant you put on it, it will eventually leak.

Here are some 'best practice' tips to follow:

ALWAYS inspect the threads of black pipe and fittings before purchase. REJECT any that have gouges or badly formed threads. They WILL leak.

BEWARE THE CHEAP CHINESE CRAP THEY SELL AT THE BIG BOX STORES! Trust me, it's JUNK. When you have a choice, buy AMERICAN!

ALWAYS wire brush the threads before assembling to remove any metal chips left over from the thread cutting process. They WILL cause the joint to leak.

NEVER put any tape or 'sealant' on the FIRST 2-3 threads of the male ends. This is where you want the metal to contact the metal and form the seal. The 'imperfect threads' at the male end, and inside the female fittings are actually designed to deform and 'mash together' to form the seal.

DO NOT use more than 1-2 wraps of teflon tape. More is NOT better. Too much tape can actually PREVENT you from getting a threaded joint tight enough. You may THINK it's tight enough but I guarantee if you come back to it a few hours or a day later and try to tighten it again you will find it MUCH looser than you left it. This is because the tape 'cold flows' out of the threads and the joint loosens up. Sadly, you will see knuckleheads, even professional knuckleheads, using 5-6 wraps of tape, but I maintain that practice is WRONG WRONG WRONG! Don't do it.

Many guys now a days will put a wrap or two of teflon tape, and then dab some paste dope on top of that. It works... I do it too... but again, none on the first 2-3 threads, and TIGHTEN IT!

Actually COUNT the threads on the fitting. You will see that there are usually 10, give or take, so if you've got more than 3 threads sticking out, it's probably not tight enough. It takes practice to get a feel for how tight they need to be... and I may be over-stressing the point... but they do need to be TIGHT!
 
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Old 11-16-13, 05:26 AM
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Please over-stress all you like. Those are the kind of things you can only learn from experience, and i like to learn as much as i can. So if i choose to put a little pipe dope on my tape, is it normally a thing layer? Will too much be bad, or will it just ooze out?

An update:

I ordered the top and bottom set of the Webstone 1" full ball drain valves. They should be coming in next week with the rest of the parts i ordered.

Also (the good news), as it turns out i never checked the other side of my radiators to see if they had bleeders. I checked one side and then saw them in the basement, so i assumed they installed them incorrectly. The radiators do have bleeders up top. So at one end in the basement they have a bleeder, and at the opposite end upstairs they also have a bleeder. However now that i will have those drain valves, is that the better approach to getting the air our. It seems like more of a time saver to just drain downstairs on those flange valves. Is there a possibility that there will still be air in the system even after i drain with the new valves downstairs? In that case ill have to use the bleeders upstairs right?
 
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Old 11-16-13, 10:34 AM
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if i choose to put a little pipe dope on my tape, is it normally a thing layer? Will too much be bad, or will it just ooze out?
Yes, a thin layer of dope. (I like RectorSeal #5 or Hercules Blue). Too much will probably just squeeze out as you thread the fitting in. Too much dope is not nearly the problem that too much tape is.

The radiators do have bleeders up top. So at one end in the basement they have a bleeder, and at the opposite end upstairs they also have a bleeder.
Great! Are the ones on top at the DOWNSTREAM end of the baseboards?

Here's why they ought to be, but if they aren't, all is not lost. They will still work but you might have to bleed with pump OFF. Air has to collect under the bleeder for it to do any good.



However now that i will have those drain valves, is that the better approach to getting the air our.
When you refill the system, use the drains at the boiler. This will allow you to get MOST of the air out before you start the system.

Remember that the fresh water you add is going to contain large amounts of dissolved air which will form bubbles after heating. It's best after the system is filled to not add any more fresh water than is necessary (remember about the corrosion triad, add fresh water and you are adding Oxygen).

So, for initial filling and purging, the valves at the boiler will be used. After the system is operating, the air scoop and vent should take care of the remaining air, but it's a good idea to go to each bleeder on the baseboards a couple times in the first few weeks of operation to bleed of what air might get stuck in the loops. Hopefully it won't be much.
 
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Old 11-17-13, 08:16 AM
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Good deal. Here is a picture of the bleeders up top. They are at the downstream end of the water flow. So they should work well. So by the time i'm done the system should be a lot better than before. No leaks, new valves, and the modularity to work on one part at a time. PexSupply sent out those valves quickly. They should be arriving tomorrow some time, so then i'm just waiting on the new pump parts. I went to Lowes yesterday and got all of the piping and valves i need. Currently the boiler drain points straight out in line with the tee it comes out of. Would you see it being a problem if i put an elbow out of that tee, and then the valve. I have the extra parts, and i think it would make the valve more accessible because the chimney is right there.

null_zps98a5290a.jpg Photo by cpentasuglia | Photobucket

I ordered a pump seal kit for my pump. One thing i think i missed is the gaskets that go in between the pump ends and the flanges. Are those a specialized part? Or will i need to order those too. I think they look like big o rings. Ive also seen gaskets for between the flanges that look the shape of the flanges. I guess the main question is if you happen to know what kind of seals i need i need between the pump, and the flanges.
 
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Old 11-17-13, 09:04 AM
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Would you see it being a problem if i put an elbow out of that tee, and then the valve.
No, not at all, as long as it doesn't stick out so far as to be an ankle buster if you are working near the boiler.

One thing i think i missed is the gaskets that go in between the pump ends and the flanges. Are those a specialized part?
Those should be a standard size 'pump flange gasket' which you should be able to obtain locally. Probably HD or Lowes, or any plumbing supply.
 
 

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