use of alarm circuit on honeywell r7184u

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Old 11-23-13, 07:23 AM
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use of alarm circuit on honeywell r7184u

I use a simple freeze alarm to call me by phone when my boiler fails to fire and the temps get too low. It does not have any other sensors. However I would be able to respond much quicker if I could get that call when the R7184u goes into lockout mode. I believe when that happens the alarm circuit is closed so I need to figure out how to get that circuit to trigger a freeze alarm dial out.

I am looking at a new freeze alarm that includes both power outage and water sensor. If I could get the alarm circuit to trigger the water sensor then I would get a call from the freeze alarm much sooner than for low temp.

I believe the alarm circuit is 30vac up to 2amp but I do not know the specs on the water sensor. I suspect it is dc since the ones I've seen are battery operated.

Any suggestions on how to accomplish this? I'm not an electronics guy but some sort of simple radio shack kit to test the alarm circuit and close the water sensor circuit might work.

Not particularly interested in an expensive option like the honeywell envircom.

TIA
Steve
 
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Old 11-23-13, 08:47 AM
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I am looking at a new freeze alarm

Steve, tell us what alarm systems you are looking at.
 
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Old 11-23-13, 12:54 PM
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I am looking at the Reliance Controls THP201 Phone Call Alarm System Power Outage Freeze Flood Alert which would replace my current Control Products FA-B-CCA. I would consider other units if they have a better way to accomplish my goal.
 
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Old 11-23-13, 02:31 PM
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If I could get the alarm circuit to trigger the water sensor then I would get a call from the freeze alarm much sooner than for low temp.
I'll bet that you can.

The water sensor is using a piece of 'twin lead' (looks like the old style 300 ohm TV antenna wire!) which is likely to be installed on the floor near any possible water source leaks. The conductivity of the water between the two wires is what would trigger the response.

AFAIK (and check this before commencing) that alarm output from the 7184 is simply a contact closure, no voltage is present at those terminals... just a 'switch'.

I think that you could get that water sensor to do 'double duty'...

If you wire that alarm output from the 7184 in parallel with the water sensor wire, my guess is that when the alarm closes on the burner, the water alarm will interpret this as a water leak and dial out.
 
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Old 11-23-13, 06:25 PM
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I'll have to check that circuit. It would be great and easy to implement if it is in fact just a open/closed circuit. The alarm circuit uses two solderless connectors so I guess stripped phone cord would work there. The reason I thought it was output of 30vac and 2a was the published electrical specs are
Electrical Ratings:
Inputs:
Voltage: 102 to 132 Vac, 120 Vac nominal.
Current: 100 mA plus burner motor, valve and ignitor
loads.
Frequency: 60 Hz.
Outputs:
Relay Contacts:
Burner: 120 Vac, 10 full load amperes (FLA),
60 locked rotor amperes (LRA).
Valve: 120 Vac, 1A.
Ignitor: 120 Vac, 360 VA.
Alarm: 30 Vac, 2A.

I could turn the master power switch off and check the ohms between the two connections. If there is continuity then it is not a open/close switch and would not work with a direct connection. If there is no continuity I could turn the valve off at the fuel filter, run until failure and then check for voltage and/or continuity. I'll have to wait for a weekday so if I fry something a replacement can be obtained. I use a Tiger Loop so air purging shouldn't be a problem.

While doing my searches I found that the R7184 has been superseded by R7284U1004 which has a nice lcd display that gives much more information, history, type of fault, ignition cycles, etc. But I could not find any mention of an alarm circuit on the new box. That would put the screws to my improvised solution.

Thanks for the assist and if I get around to doing this I'll report back here.
 
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Old 11-23-13, 06:39 PM
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From training material on that control:

Alarm Contacts
(dry contacts, normally open)
Provides switch action to remote alarm panels
'dry contacts' means that there is no voltage.

Alarm: 30 Vac, 2A.
These are the ratings of the contacts. Means that you can't apply more than 30VAC to, or draw more than 2A through the contacts.

Yes, let us know what you learn.

If you do get the new control you were talking about, the first thing to do would be to short the water sensor probe wires together to see if that initiates a phone call. Just make sure you haven't programmed 911 into the call list!

By the way, the 7284 has the alarm module as an accessory:

W8735S3000 Alarm Module

W8735S3000 - Honeywell W8735S3000 - Enviracom Alarm Module

It connects to the Envira-Com interface and has contact closure for alarm output.
 
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Old 11-24-13, 04:20 PM
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I looked at the alarm connection points on my r7184u and I can't really see how they connect. There is a opening on the left side of the connector and on the right side is a raised nubbin. They are described in the manual as a solderless connector, not screw terminals.

If I push a small gauge solid wire in the opening will it friction fit or is there some special terminator I need to use. The circuit is currently open with normal operations. Haven't tested with an alarm condition but I will.
 
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Old 11-24-13, 05:37 PM
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Perhaps you have one of the models that DOES NOT HAVE the alarm outputs? Not all of them do... mine do NOT.

Do you have a camera that you can get a close up view?

I believe that you CAN use that alarm module with yours though. You would need the three wire "MTA" connector to plug into the 7184... might be able to get a 'sample' from the manufacturer... "Tyco / AMP / TE Connectivity" connectors. Maybe the module comes with one of them?

MTA 100 Connectors Overview - TE

Or buy 20 of them @ 19 cents each

3-643814-3: AMP/TYCO ELECTRONICS: Interconnects
 
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Old 11-24-13, 05:54 PM
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Wait... scratch that bit about the connector. The 7184 has screw terminals in ADDITION to the 3 pin connector, so you can just wire with 3 wires between the terminals on the alarm module and the 7184 primary.

According to the alarm module install, it will work with your 7184:

The W8735S3000 Alarm Module is compatible with the
following EnviraCOM enabled controls:
R7284/R7184 Oil Primary
 
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Old 11-24-13, 10:16 PM
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Well I guess I am a bit confused (not unusual).

Here is a pic of my r7184.

In the upper right is the 3 pin connector for the envircom.

Screw terminals are below it.

On the left is the green led at the top, reset button below that, dip switches and then two oddball (maybe) connectors.

Looking at the wiring diagram on the install sheet the screw terminals are upside down. In the diagram the top two are t and t3 jumpered then t2 and t1 below that are environcom terminals.

Then on the diagram below t1 there are two solderless connectors that are to a remote alarm circuit.

I was thinking the two oddball connectors at the lower left might be for the alarm circuit I want to use with a water sensor but maybe that is wrong and I need to use the two screw terminals t2 and t1.

So do I use t2 and t1 connected to the water sensor and what are those two oddball things in the very lower left?
 
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Old 11-25-13, 08:01 AM
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I want to use with a water sensor but maybe that is wrong and I need to use the two screw terminals t2 and t1.
No... not correct. Terminals 1, 2, and 3 are the screw terminals for the Enviracom, with the 3 pin connector above it. EITHER of those connection methods may be used for Enviracom.

NO, do NOT connect anything else to terminals 1 and 2, those are Enviracom ONLY.

Terminal 3 is 'double duty' and is supposed to be jumpered to the other "T" terminal for your application. If you connect Enviracom to the screw terminals you will have TWO wires on T/3, one is the jumper, the other is wire 3 for Enviracom.

I can't see in the picture what you are saying about the alarm connector. You are probably using a cell phone camera and they 5uck in general for this kind of picture. You need to get some light in there ... use a flashlight if you need to... and a good camera with a 'macro' function.

If you can tell us the FULL model number of the 7184 that you have, it should tell us if your model has the alarm circuit as option. Full model number will include the 4 digit suffix, i.e. R7184Uxxxx
 
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Old 11-25-13, 09:57 AM
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Here is the new pic of the r7184u1004. Ignore the tin foil like stuff on the left side, it is a reflector so I can see the green led from the door to the house.

I know the top right is the three pin connector is for an envircom cable with the four screw terminals below. It is hard to see but what is that two hole thing on the lower left below the dip switch? Is it some sort of diagnostic data port? I thought that it might be the alarm contact port.

So where would I attach the two leads from the water sensor for access to the open/close alarm relay?

Thanks.
 
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Old 11-25-13, 10:14 AM
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It is hard to see but what is that two hole thing on the lower left below the dip switch? Is it some sort of diagnostic data port? I thought that it might be the alarm contact port.
I still can't see anything in that last picture...

The lower left IS the location that the alarm connector would be in if so equipped.

I've never seen one with the alarm option installed, all of mine do not have the alarm option.

All I've got in that position is the corner of the PC board and a couple of filled in with solder holes where the connector would be mounted if it were equipped.
 
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Old 11-25-13, 05:30 PM
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Here is a closeup of the lower left corner. Does this look like the alarm connector?
 
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Old 11-25-13, 05:56 PM
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Yes, it does, and if I had to guess, I would say that those two square buttons on the left are spring loaded. It's probably a 'push in' connector, and pressing the square button would release the grabber and let you remove the wire.
 
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Old 11-25-13, 08:17 PM
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Thanks. My next test will be to force an alarm and see if the circuit goes closed.
 
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Old 11-25-13, 09:16 PM
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NJ Trooper you are correct. The little buttons are push in to release a captured wire. I did force a fault and there is continuity on the alarm circuit when the green led is flashing and no continuity during normal operation. The freeze alarm I will be ordering will put a weak 9v current through that circuit to trigger the dialer when the circuit closes during an alarm. I wonder if my boiler guy will freak out next he comes to service the unit.

Thanks a bunch for your assistance.
 
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Old 11-25-13, 09:22 PM
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I wonder if my boiler guy will freak out next he comes to service the unit.
If he don't freak, I'm pretty sure you'll get a "duhhhhh... what's that?" out of him!

Good luck! Let us know how it works!
 
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Old 12-13-13, 09:29 PM
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it works!

I installed a Reliance THP201 freeze alarm which has a 45F temp alarm, a power loss alarm and an accessory alarm which is normally used with a water sensor module. I soldered two more wires in parallel with the water sensor and ran them to the r7184 alarm circuit. Now when the green reset led starts to blink I get a phone call to up to 3 numbers long before a temp alarm would trigger.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 08:42 AM
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Very cool... well, let's hope not TOO COOL! at least above freezing!

Thanks for the update report, I'll keep this in my 'bag of tricks'.
 
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