Energy Save On - Should we Disable Outdoor Reset Module on Burnham ES-2?

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  #41  
Old 12-18-13, 07:17 PM
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Wiring at the high limit control sounds correct. Nothing to do there... temp is correct too.

The boiler appears to be attempting to fulfill DHW and Central Heat which is good.
Lights on Taco indicate that both valves are open?

Boiler coming up to temp... with DHW call the ODR setting is over-ridden so you should see the boiler fire to 180 (or whatever you have the high limit setting at).

Pump seems to be running?
 
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Old 12-18-13, 07:28 PM
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Lights on Taco indicate that both valves are open?

Boiler coming up to temp... with DHW call the ODR setting is over-ridden so you should see the boiler fire to 180 (or whatever you have the high limit setting at).

Pump seems to be running?
Lights are on at the Taco for Thermostat and DHW. Valves open for both.

I'm unable to determine if the pump is running. Is there a surefire way to tell?

I've upped the Circulator Overrun (Or) from 0 seconds to 120 seconds.

Radiant Fins are still cold to the touch.

No hot water. It almost appears the tank needs to be re-heated. Typically we get hot water at the tap in 12 seconds.

It is cold for 20 seconds.
 
  #43  
Old 12-18-13, 07:32 PM
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Boiler coming up to temp... with DHW call the ODR setting is over-ridden so you should see the boiler fire to 180 (or whatever you have the high limit setting at).
Boiler is coming up to temp High Limit and then cooling down and will fire again.
 
  #44  
Old 12-18-13, 07:37 PM
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Boiler is coming up to temp High Limit and then cooling down and will fire again.
And still no heat or hot water?

Sounds as if pump is not running...

WTH is going on there?

Disconnect one of the indirect wires, either at the Taco, or at the 6006... stop the call from the indirect and see if the baseboards start to heat up.

I'm unable to determine if the pump is running. Is there a surefire way to tell?
Is the pump motor body hot?

Take a screwdriver and place the handle to your ear and put the point on the circ pump body like a stethoscope and see if you can hear the water moving...

You can also use your 'five finger tool' and do the 'ouch test'. Put your hand on the pipe coming out of the boiler and follow the heat. Is any hot water moving out of the boiler at all?
 
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Old 12-18-13, 07:46 PM
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Just to confirm DHW Priority time on the boiler ODR Pt should be set to zero?
Yes, I believe that's how it's turned off on that control... zero minutes means no priority.
I think a correction is needed here... Yes, DHW PRIORITY time goes to zero...

But, what was the ODR Pt time again? I guess I need to look at the books again, I forget what that one is...

OK, false alarm:

Domestic Hot Water Priority Time
When the Domestic Hot Water Priority Time parameter is non-zero and Domestic Hot Water (DHW) heat demand is “on” the DHW demand will take “Priority” over home heating demand for the specified time. During DHW Priority the system circulator will be forced “off”. DHW Priority ends and the system circulator is released to service home heating demand when Domestic Hot Water Priority Time is exceeded. If this parameter is set to zero, there is no domestic hot water priority and the system circulator is not forced “off”.
Yes, ODR Pt goes to ZERO.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 07:54 PM
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And still no heat or hot water?

Sounds as if pump is not running...

WTH is going on there?

Disconnect one of the indirect wires, either at the Taco, or at the 6006... stop the call from the indirect and see if the baseboards start to heat up.
I've disconnected the 6006. The DHW call and valve lights on the taco are now off.

The thermostat and valve lights remain on.

The boiler has gone into energy save on and won't answer the call for heat. Supply is 158, HL is 180 and Reset Setpoint is 138.

The lines leaving the boiler are nice and hot. The return line is cold feeding back into the boiler.

Is my pump a Red "T" wiht a black box just after the pressure valve leaving the boiler? Looks like it is called Grundfos. That black box has low medium and high switch on it. When I moved it from Medium to High, a whoosh of water pressure sounded like it had been set free.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 08:00 PM
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Is my pump a Red "T" wiht a black box just after the pressure valve leaving the boiler? Looks like it is called Grundfos. That black box has low medium and high switch on it. When I moved it from Medium to High, a whoosh of water pressure sounded like it had been set free.
Yes, Grundfos, probably a 15-58 model?

OK, and when you switched to high and heard that whoosh of water, is the system now starting to get HOT ?

It's possible that the pump was 'stuck'... that does happen to them from time to time.

So, do you have heat now? Leave it on high for a while.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 08:07 PM
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The boiler has gone into energy save on and won't answer the call for heat. Supply is 158, HL is 180 and Reset Setpoint is 138.
But the pump should still be running.

The boiler will refire when boiler drops down to Reset Setpoint.

This is NORMAL and the function of the ODR.

The reason that the boiler was firing hotter is because the DHW was also calling and boiler was firing to high limit.

I think you may have freed up the pump by switching to HIGH and you should now be getting heat into the baseboards.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 08:07 PM
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Can you post some pics of the boiler and piping all around so we can see what we're working on?
 
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Old 12-18-13, 08:08 PM
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Once we get some heat back in the home, we're going to turn down the thermostat and reconnect the DHW and see how that goes.

I think the pump was stuck.
 
  #51  
Old 12-18-13, 08:25 PM
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With the DHW disconnected at the 6006, the boiler remains in Energy Save On.

Supply temp has dropped to 90 degrees and the pipes leaving the boiler to the pump have gone cold.

I connected the DHW to the 6006 and the boiler fires right up, the pump works and the pipes quickly heat up.

Removing the wire to the 6006 while the boiler is running, quickly stops running and reverts back to Energy Save On and won't answer the call of the thermostat.


But the pump should still be running.

The boiler will refire when boiler drops down to Reset Setpoint.

This is NORMAL and the function of the ODR.

The reason that the boiler was firing hotter is because the DHW was also calling and boiler was firing to high limit.
I agree this should be what I'd expect to experience.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 08:32 PM
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So are you saying that when you had the indirect disconnected, and the thermostat in the home was still calling for heat, and you switched the pump to HIGH and heard that whoosh, that the baseboards did not immediately begin to get warm?

The pump was RUNNING, NO?

Why didn't that pump the boiler water into the baseboards?
 
  #53  
Old 12-18-13, 08:33 PM
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Pictures of the setup

Pictures of the layout.

Left hand side:

Pressure Guage, Supply line, Pump and Taco.

Supply goes all the way to the top past the pump around to the right to the valve for the DHW / Alliance then drops into the floor for the radiant heating system.

Single Zone.

Not pictured is the Alliance on the right of the boiler in a closet.
 
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  #54  
Old 12-18-13, 08:34 PM
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Removing the wire to the 6006 while the boiler is running, quickly stops running and reverts back to Energy Save On and won't answer the call of the thermostat.
But again, this is NORMAL.

And the pump should be running.

See previous post... I thought you indicated that the pump WAS running at this time?
 
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Old 12-18-13, 08:39 PM
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So are you saying that when you had the indirect disconnected, and the thermostat in the home was still calling for heat, and you switched the pump to HIGH and heard that whoosh, that the baseboards did not immediately begin to get warm?

The pump was RUNNING, NO?

Why didn't that pump the boiler water into the baseboards?
The Boiler would not run while the indirect was disconnected even after the supply dropped beyond the Reset Setpoint of 138. The supply dropped down to 95 and the boiler would not answer the call for heat.

The pump was not running.

I think you were right about the pump potentially being blocked.

When I re-connected the Indirect, water gurgled from the DHW Zone 2 valve into the indirect tank.

The boiler has been running with the indirect connected, the pump is running and my baseboards are now getting nice and toasty.

No hot water yet. When I run the hot water at the tap, it no longer feels as frigid as it had been.

I understand it is getting late on the East Coast.

With the Indirect connected and the baseboards warming, I feel that we're now seeing reliable boiler firing.

As you'd mentioned earlier on, the mis-wiring may not fix my root issue of why the Energy Save On is operating in an upredicatably.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 08:43 PM
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then drops into the floor for the radiant heating system.
Hang on a minute...

What do you mean 'radiant heating system' ?

Are you saying that you do NOT have FIN-TUBE BASEBOARDS?

Are you saying that you have tubing in the floor?

Man this is getting complicated and going in every direction possible.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 08:53 PM
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As you'd mentioned earlier on, the mis-wiring may not fix my root issue of why the Energy Save On is operating in an upredicatably.
I think you are focusing to much on the Energy Save On being part of the problem.

I don't think that it is.

Remember a ways back we (along with rbeck) were talking about the 'HR' parameter?

This parameter is OFF when the boiler is not 'seeing' a heat request, and "ON" when it is.

You need to view that parameter. At one point you said it was OFF when the Taco was clearly calling for heat. And I said "there's your problem right there". We should have stayed focused on that at that point.

OBSERVE THE "HR" PARAMETER WHEN THERE IS A CALL FOR HEAT AND WHEN THERE IS NOT.

Tell us what you see.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 08:54 PM
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Hang on a minute...

What do you mean 'radiant heating system' ?

Are you saying that you do NOT have FIN-TUBE BASEBOARDS?
We have Fin-tube baseboards. I call them radiant baseboards. Is that not a correct term for them?

We do not have tubes in the floor.
 
  #59  
Old 12-18-13, 09:00 PM
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At this point I would like you to get out that multimeter and set it to read AC VOLTS.

Disconnect again the indirect wire.

Turn the house thermostat all the way DOWN.

I want you to place the probes on the TACO ENDSWITCH TERMINALS. measure the voltage you see with NO HEAT CALL of either type. Tell me what you get.

Go to the T T terminals on the IQ panel in the boiler and do the same thing. You should see the same thing at both ends of those wires...

Turn the house thermostat all the way UP.

Measure the Taco endswitch terminals again. Tell me what you get.

Go to the T T terminals on the IQ panel in the boiler and do the same thing. You should see the same thing at both ends of those wires...

You SHOULD SEE 24VAC when there is NO CALL FOR HEAT.

You SHOULD SEE ZERO VOLTS when there IS a call for heat.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 09:04 PM
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I call them radiant baseboards. Is that not a correct term for them?
When you said:

...drops into the floor for the radiant heating system.
I thought you meant that you had 'in-floor radiant heat'.

It gets confusing sometimes.

Baseboard heat IS partially radiant, but mostly convective.

Terms get mixed sometimes... we're clear now though.

Just call baseboard baseboard and in-floor radiant in-floor radiant and we're all good.
 
  #61  
Old 12-18-13, 09:08 PM
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Here is a quicker test.

With the indirect still disconnected, and the house thermostat turned all the way DOWN, with NO CALL FOR HEAT:

Take a small piece of wire and touch it across the T T terminals in the boiler on the IQ panel where the wires from the Taco endswitch come in.

When you touch that wire on, you should see the "HR" parameter change from OFF to ON.

Do you?

Does the boiler fire on a heat call when you do that?

I'm beginning to think that you have a problem in the Taco panel.
(or the high limit 4006 control)

This test will tell us if the boiler control has a problem, or if it's up in the Taco or the high limit.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 09:09 PM
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At this point I would like you to get out that multimeter and set it to read AC VOLTS.

Disconnect again the indirect wire.

Turn the house thermostat all the way DOWN.

I want you to place the probes on the TACO ENDSWITCH TERMINALS. measure the voltage you see with NO HEAT CALL of either type. Tell me what you get.
Multimeter set to ACV, the 200 scale reads 25.4.


Go to the T T terminals on the IQ panel in the boiler and do the same thing. You should see the same thing at both ends of those wires...
Multimeter set to ACV, the 200 scale reads 25.4.


Turn the house thermostat all the way UP.

Measure the Taco endswitch terminals again. Tell me what you get.

Go to the T T terminals on the IQ panel in the boiler and do the same thing. You should see the same thing at both ends of those wires...
Uh oh. Multimeter set to ACV, the 200 scale reads 25.4.

You SHOULD SEE 24VAC when there is NO CALL FOR HEAT.

You SHOULD SEE ZERO VOLTS when there IS a call for heat.
What would you recommend here that is isn't zero volts?

The Zone 1 TT on the Taco from the thermostat is 00.8
 
  #63  
Old 12-18-13, 09:15 PM
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What would you recommend here that is isn't zero volts?
That's what I thought...

If we had stayed focused on that "HR" thing way back, we would have found this sooner...

There's a problem with the Taco.

Follow up with the test of placing the wire jumper across the T T in the boiler (post #61) and see if it responds.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 09:17 PM
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Here is a quicker test.

With the indirect still disconnected, and the house thermostat turned all the way DOWN, with NO CALL FOR HEAT:

Take a small piece of wire and touch it across the T T terminals in the boiler on the IQ panel where the wires from the Taco endswitch come in.

When you touch that wire on, you should see the "HR" parameter change from OFF to ON.

Do you?

Does the boiler fire on a heat call when you do that?

I'm beginning to think that you have a problem in the Taco panel.
(or the high limit 4006 control)

This test will tell us if the boiler control has a problem, or if it's up in the Taco or the high limit.
When I jump these two T-T terminals on the boiler, the HR parameter changes from off to on.

The boiler attempts to start and goes into Central Heat On. I believe it would've fired if weren't at the High Limit.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 09:21 PM
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I would like you to repeat the multimeter test with the house t'stat all the way down, and the indirect connected and calling.

This will tell us if it's the 'channel 1' on the taco bad, or if the endswitch relay is bad.

If it's only channel 1 bad, you can move the thermostat and zone valve from channel 1 to the unused channel 3

If it's the endswitch relay bad, I think those are 'plug-in' relays, and you may be able to get a replacement. If not, you're looking at a new taco panel.

I do have a possible temporary work-around...

But it's getting late here and I need some zzzz's...

I want to stick long enough to see the results of the last tests though.
 
  #66  
Old 12-18-13, 09:23 PM
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When I jump these two T-T terminals on the boiler, the HR parameter changes from off to on.

The boiler attempts to start and goes into Central Heat On. I believe it would've fired if weren't at the High Limit.
OK, now we're making progress!

The boiler is fine.
 
  #67  
Old 12-18-13, 09:26 PM
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One more test, before going to the trouble of moving all the wires to channel 3.

Place a wire jumper across the terminals 3 & 4 on the channel 3 zone valve output.

Place a jumper across the channel 3 thermostat input.

Does boiler register HR ON ?

If so, move all channel 1 wires to channel 3.
 
  #68  
Old 12-18-13, 09:26 PM
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I would like you to repeat the multimeter test with the house t'stat all the way down, and the indirect connected and calling.

This will tell us if it's the 'channel 1' on the taco bad, or if the endswitch relay is bad.

If it's only channel 1 bad, you can move the thermostat and zone valve from channel 1 to the unused channel 3

Absolutely. Checking now.

Indirect connected and the house thermostat not calling for heat:

T-T on the Boiler with the indirect calling for DHW is 00.0.

End Switch on Taco with the indirect calling for DHW is 00.0.


Long term would you buy another Taco ZVC403-4 3 Zone Valve Control Module or recommend another module?

I'm thinking based on your recommendation, that I can move the thermostat from zone 1 to zone 3?
 
  #69  
Old 12-18-13, 09:29 PM
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I'm thinking based on your recommendation, that I can move the thermostat from zone 1 to zone 3?
Yes, I think so.

AND the zone valve wires also.

Do ONE AT A TIME! so you don't get them mixed up!

If you want to verify that channel 3 works properly first, you can do the test in #67 ...

Or just go ahead and move them over.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 09:31 PM
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I think we're on the road to recovery here...

The UP SIDE to all this is that you got the panel rewired so that you won't damage the ODR control by back feeding 24VAC into that from the Taco... that had to be done one way or the other.

That part is all good now.
 
  #71  
Old 12-18-13, 09:35 PM
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Long term would you buy another Taco ZVC403-4 3 Zone Valve Control Module or recommend another module?
Probably. They are generally pretty reliable. You don't know for sure that the boneheads who installed it didn't screw it up somehow.

If you buy a new one, be advised that they are now quite a bit different looking. New features are added... still all the same old stuff though. Terminal strips a bit different...

But, if channel 3 works, just hang with it and see how it goes.
 
  #72  
Old 12-19-13, 05:55 AM
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Long term would you buy another Taco ZVC403-4 3 Zone Valve Control Module or recommend another module?
The Burnham can control 2 heating zones or 1 CH zone and 1 dhw zone. For this application, isn't the Taco Zone Control Module redundant?
 
  #73  
Old 12-19-13, 06:11 AM
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The Burnham can control 2 heating zones or 1 CH zone and 1 dhw zone. For this application, isn't the Taco Zone Control Module redundant?
I believe that it can control two PUMPED zones, but not zone valves.
 
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Old 12-19-13, 06:28 AM
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Ah Ha...I missed that single circulator part.
 
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Old 12-19-13, 10:01 AM
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Good Morning.

Thank you again for all of your assistance yesterday.

I tested zone 3 as outlined in #67. Hr moved from off to on so I migrated all wires one at a time to the zone 3 terminals.

I re-tested the steps in #59 and ended up with the same results. The T-T and End Switch continue to register 24.5 volts.


Would this indicate a wiring issue or short?


I've ordered a new Taco which will be here tomorrow. I believe we're still on the road to recovery and at least have the problem narrowed down.
 
  #76  
Old 12-19-13, 11:02 AM
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Seems to this non-pro that since the Burnham IQ system has the capability...most, if not all of the CH/DHW issues with this system could have been avoided by employing a DHW circulator instead of the zone control and DHW zone valve.
 
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Old 12-19-13, 11:08 AM
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Logically it would seem that the taco is NOT the problem.

If you tested channel 3 with a jumper across 3 & 4 and a jumper on the tstat input and the endswitch switched, and then you connected the wires and it did NOT switch...

Then, I believe that there may actually be a problem with the zone valve itself.

The endswitch in the zone valve may be making enough contact in order to light the LED on the taco panel that indicates the valve has opened, but perhaps not enough contact to actually trigger the endswitch RELAY.

Pull the wires from the zone valve endswitch to 3 & 4 in the Taco and let them hang.

Put a jumper across 3 & 4 and have the tstat call for heat and try again...

If my suspicion is valid, I expect it will appear that everything is working now.
 
  #78  
Old 12-19-13, 07:05 PM
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Pull the wires from the zone valve endswitch to 3 & 4 in the Taco and let them hang.

Put a jumper across 3 & 4 and have the tstat call for heat and try again...

If my suspicion is valid, I expect it will appear that everything is working now.
As you'd predicted, the boiler is responding to calls to heat and DHW as I would expect it to work now.

Would this indicate the zone valve is faulting?
 
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Old 12-19-13, 07:27 PM
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Would this indicate the zone valve is faulting?
Yes, it sure would. It also means that your Taco panel is fine.

Set your multimeter to read OHMS and hook onto the hanging endswitch wires.

When there is no call for heat, should be OPEN, INFINITE.

When there is a call for heat and the valve is open, the endswitch wires should read CONTINUITY, CLOSED, ZERO OHMS.

What do you see?

I think you are going to see some resistance, but definitely NOT ZERO. I bet in the K ohm range...
 
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Old 12-19-13, 07:43 PM
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You CAN continue to run with the jumpers in place.

Here are some possible down sides to doing so:

Those jumpers on 3 & 4 are 'simulating' a valve endswitch telling the panel the valve has opened.

If the zone valve gets called for heat and DOES NOT OPEN (bad motor for example), the Taco will still signal the boiler to fire because with the jumper on 3 & 4 it will think that the valve has signaled that it has opened.

If this happens you will most likely notice the house getting cold before it goes on long enough to possibly damage the circulator pump.

The MOTORS in the zone valves are reliable enough that the possibility of this happening is fairly remote.

I wouldn't fault you if you were to leave it that way until spring time... and just keep an eye on it in the meantime.

Here's something else though...

You NEED to leave the DHW wired with the jumper... unless I can think of a way to easily wire it up so that the water heater zone valve can provide valve open feedback to the Taco panel...

Thinking...
 
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