Need some advice


  #1  
Old 12-05-13, 06:23 PM
H
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Need some advice

OK, first I want to apologize if this post gets too long but I want to provide as much info as possible for everyone to get the situation.

Live in north western PA and to be closer to family I bought a new (to me) house a couple years ago with a new(er) 2008-9 Burnham series 2 model B (i think it's a P206) boiler. We have a low volume private gas well that works very well for all gas needs from about march to end of october. We also have the area gas company hooked up. WELL. even though we bought the house with this setup and it's been in place for close to 20 years the gas company threw a hissy fit and threatened to disconnect us without notice if we didn't choose 100% service from either them or the gas well. Knowing the well wouldn't supply enough for winter months I reluctantly shut the well off.

OK the stage is set, now we're having some of the coldest weather we've had in a few years and without the well we've seen gas bills go through the roof. The house is a ranch style with approx. 1600 cf heated on the main floor with baseboard and another 1200 cf heated in the basement using a small pellet stove and one room (man cave) in the basement about 400 cf heated with more baseboard. Since the boiler was installed only a year or so before we bought the place I never put much thought into it being oversized (that and the well made us really not care). So I started looking at everything, doing the math, adding insulation, putting new windows in, getting ready to foam board, house wrap and add new siding, yatta yatta yatta...

The problem: using the slantfin heat loss calculator I came up with a heat loss of around 30k. Also going to pexsupply.com (say whatever you want, it's just a reference point ATM) I used their calculator to get that in my area I need approx. 88-96k (output) to heat properly, so about 110-125k input or there about. My burnham is inputting 164k and output is about 136k. I'm guessing I'm grossly over-sized but need some opinions.

Here's where I wanna go with all this. I wanna beat the gas company and run off just my well but that's a secondary goal. Primary is to bring the bills down for now. I know the furnace is only a few years old, but being over-sized (as most boilers seem to be) I'm wondering if I should sink the money into a smaller/higher efficiency/possibly condensing boiler and if so I've narrowed down some brands and models and would like some opinions on those. I could probably get a few bucks out of the burnham and make someone who needs a boiler a good deal. I should also mention that the house is plumbed for 3 zones, but whoever installed this burnham pulled the automatic zone valves out and replaced them with straight pipe setting the whole house up as one zone. And of course the thermostat is in the room with the most/largest/oldest most leaking windows in the house.

The H.E. condensing boilers I've been looking at are:
Weil Mclain ECO 110
Triangle Tube CC-125
Triangle Tube PT110
Burnham Freedom FCM120NS (though I'm a little concerned about a cast aluminum heat exchanger)

And because I know it's a variable in condensing boilers our water PH levels are at 7.2 units, our chlorine levels are at 2-3 ppm and our hardness is less than 1 grain per gallon.

Again I apologize for the length of this post but I wanted to be thorough! Thank you all for any info, it is very much appreciated! If there is any more info that anyone needs I will do my best to get it (pictures and such). Thank you all again!
 
  #2  
Old 12-05-13, 06:43 PM
G
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,604
Received 28 Upvotes on 27 Posts
I know the furnace is only a few years old, but being over-sized (as most boilers seem to be) I'm wondering if I should sink the money into a smaller/higher efficiency/possibly condensing boiler and if so I've narrowed down some brands and models and would like some opinions on those.
You will not achieve any kind of reasonable economic payback by replacing a working, reliable boiler based on fuel savings - even, if hypothetically, the replacement boiler could heat your house even with zero fuel.
 
  #3  
Old 12-05-13, 08:11 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
I don't understand the grounds on which the gas utility insisted that they be the sole source.

Do you also have a service contract with them?
 
  #4  
Old 12-05-13, 08:57 PM
H
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
When being force off the well and going from $18 a month gas to $693 a month, hypothetical kinda flies out the window and revenge on an overbearing utility becomes the red you start to see.
What you're saying sounds a-kin to 'buying a car that runs on 2 cylinders instead of 12 won't save you any money on gasoline'. I appreciate the input but I can't believe that there would be no benefit to going from an input rating of 164,000 btu/hr with zero turn-down regardless of external temps and required call from the thermostat to a system that provides a 3-5 step turn-down in accordance with external temps and thermostat call.
 
  #5  
Old 12-05-13, 09:08 PM
H
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
NJ, funny that's just what THEIR lawyer said when I called and asked how they can claim they don't support 'dual feed service' in their 'Tariff' and the only citation they give me is 'Available, at one location, for the total requirements of any residential customer'. Funny... my total requirements are that if my well doesn't produce then you're my backup supply. They wanna play the word game. Of course he also went on to state that first responders aren't trained in valve orientation for gas lines and would inadvertently turn something on that they thought they were shutting off! The local VFD guys didn't like that too much when I showed it to them. One thought that could be taken as defamation! Hey, the way I look at it, if I can bring my usage down to a low enough range that my well can provide year round without having to have it re-drilled and punched deeper to better sands then I win. Even if I do have to punch deeper and pay the cost I still win. I'm young enough to re-coop the $16k before I die. If not, that's what term life is for!
 
  #6  
Old 12-05-13, 09:11 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
$693 a month
SAY WHAT? I don't pay that much to heat my place in THREE months with FUEL OIL!

You better get them out there with a sniffer and find the gas leak or thieving meter, and demand some money back.

Something is VERY WRONG if you are using $700 worth of gas a month...

I appreciate the input but I can't believe that there would be no benefit to going from an input rating of 164,000 btu/hr with zero turn-down regardless of external temps and required call from the thermostat to a system that provides a 3-5 step turn-down in accordance with external temps and thermostat call.
Of COURSE the fuel bills will be less... perhaps not as much as you might think, because after all, a BTU is a BTU and you need to use them whether it's BANG=BANG on/off style, or slow and easy wins the race.

Let's put it this way... don't hope for 50% less fuel used... I'm not sure I would even hope for 20% less fuel used...

But then compare that to the $ 7-10 K that it will probably cost to install the mod/con boiler... and then the $150 per year service charge to properly maintain it 'by the book'.

Add it all up and the total lifetime 'cost of ownership' doesn't look nearly as attractive.
 
  #7  
Old 12-05-13, 09:15 PM
H
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
the last time I had them out with the sniffer was when we bought the place and that's when they saw the well. I'm a little skittish to call them for anything anymore! lol BTW, I'm new to message boards, how the heck do you get my quoted text in that bubble when you reply??? I just hit reply and all it does is leave a new posting....
 
  #8  
Old 12-06-13, 06:04 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
I'm a little skittish to call them for anything anymore!
If I got a $700 a month utility bill I'd be screaming and yelling and jumping up and down on the hood of the CEO's Mercedes.

How many 'therms' is this $700 for ?

how the heck do you get my quoted text in that bubble when you reply???
In the bar across the top of the reply window you will see some 'icons'. The second from the right looks like a 'balloon' ... if you click that, you will see brackets and the word QUOTE in between... then another one with a " /QUOTE " . What you type between those sets of brackets is placed in the quote balloon.
 
  #9  
Old 12-06-13, 07:32 AM
G
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,604
Received 28 Upvotes on 27 Posts
I don't understand the grounds on which the gas utility insisted that they be the sole source.
Maybe there is a concern about back-feeding gas into the utility's system? The gas from a private well would not have odorant added, which could be a safety concern. I don't think the gas company could stop you from using gas from your well to supply appliances that are piped completely separate from appliances supplied from the utility. But, from my experience, the gas used for cooking, water heating, grilling, and clothes drying is almost negligible compared to space heating. And during summer months, the fixed fees and charges swamp the actual charge for the gas used.

Can you scan your $700 gas bill (blacking out personal info), and post it here as an image? That would help us understand what might be going on.
 
  #10  
Old 12-06-13, 09:19 AM
S
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 2,768
Received 141 Upvotes on 133 Posts
You seem to have done a lot of research. By doing a heat loss your boiler seems oversize.
A lot of mention is made of oversized boilers and most of the time they are but in my opinion unless grossly oversized it's not that big a deal.

If you you look at a p-206 with a IBR rating of 118,000 btu's with about 5.5 gal.of water. The 205 has about 4.7 gal. and the 204 has 4 gal. That's the difference between 70,000 IBR and 118,000 IBR. That's less than 2 gallons of water that have to get heated up. That's a very small difference for the amt. of heat output.
The big disadvantage I see with oversized boilers todat is the short cycling which cuts the efficiency and puts wear and tear on the parts. Boilers are made to run just like a car.
In the old days boilers had 50 to 60 gallons of water. Today that same BTU boiler will have as in your case 5.5 gallons.
My point is I guess by spending all that money to get a smaller boiler to me doesn't seem logical. I can't see how you will ever recoupe your money. I think you would be much better served by going back to zone heating for better control and comfort.
If you look at all the boilers the big difference is the price they get.
This is just my opinion.

As for your gas cost. I live in MA and there are people here spending that for a season. A friend of mine just got his gas bill for November for $68.00. That's for heat, hot water and cooking. I find it hard to believe gas prices from state to state can be that different. Oil in MA is 3 times the price of gas and I don't pay a third of that for a month.
 
  #11  
Old 12-06-13, 10:21 AM
H
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 5
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Can you scan your $700 gas bill (blacking out personal info), and post it here as an image? That would help us understand what might be going on.
I would but after looking at it a little closer I would be the biggest fool there is. I don't usually look at the paper bills that close, so I saw 693 and flipped my wig and threw it in the bill drawer totally pissed off! Well I shoulda looked closer!! We have autopay on the system and for the last 3 months it hasn't been being deducted from our checking!!!!!! So there's late fees and all that crap on there now! THAT's where the 693 came from (feel like a yutz). I'd post that but it would just be more embarrassing! Novembers bill is 230+ (mainly i think because of the single thermostat in a room that's 40% windows installed 1960's leaking like mad), October was 155, september was 113 and the rest is late fees. Now you can bet yer bippy i'll be calling! Need to find out why it wasn't being auto deducted. So I'm still seeing red.

As far as their concerns about feedback, it wasn't one they mentioned. The only real answer relating to safety was what they said about first responders. other than that the only thing they give me in response to questioning why they don't support what they call dual feed service (even though it's not mentioned in their tariff) is that it's against their policy to support such a setup. Well I'm sorry but your policy is not Utility commission LAW. Policy is an internal structure to the company. A set of standards for which to follow. LAW (or as they call it tariff) is regulation to which you MUST adhere in business practice. Not to mention that there is no language in the tariff for them to cite that makes an internal policy valid to the consumer. ALSO other companies in our area DO support 'dual feed' by asking the consumer to purchase an auto switch from them.

I though about switching companies only to find out that the provider we have now is the owner of distribution and according to PUC whoever owns the distribution channel is who can make the final call on service.

I think it simply comes down to money. They want more and not only do i have to let them take it outta my rear end, they're making ME buy the lube.

OK I've ranted enough.

Hypothetical: Let's ignore the well situation, and pretend the burnham i have is 30 years old and on it's last legs. Would any of these be a good choice? (don't worry about size or price, just brand and series, and assume the best installation)

Would YOU buy any of these machines?

Weil Mclain ECO 110
Triangle Tube Challenger CC-125
Triangle Tube Prestige w/TriMax PT110
Burnham Freedom FCM120NS (though I'm a little concerned about a cast aluminum heat exchanger)

PS to NJ,
In the bar across the top of the reply window you will see some 'icons'. The second from the right looks like a 'balloon' ... if you click that, you will see brackets and the word QUOTE in between... then another one with a " /QUOTE " . What you type between those sets of brackets is placed in the quote balloon.
Thanks for that! Now I'm cool too.
 
  #12  
Old 12-06-13, 02:31 PM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 19,710
Upvotes: 0
Received 8 Upvotes on 6 Posts
Triangle Tube Prestige w/TriMax PT110
Now I'm cool too!
Shoot home, bofuss be TWO cool!
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: