Crown BSI steam boiler & MS-40 indirect water heater. Wiring configuration.

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Old 12-10-13, 04:04 PM
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Crown BSI steam boiler & MS-40 indirect water heater. Wiring configuration.

Hi,

I have a Crown MS-40 IWH connected to a Crown BSI103 steam boiler.

The IWH has an L4006A-2114 aquastat controller set to 120F and the boiler has a high limit L4006A-1967 aquastat controller set to 160F (differential set to 10).

Using an Argo ARM-2P two zone switching relay with priority to handle the activation of the boiler burner and the IWH Armstrong Astro 250SS circulator.

I placed the IWH 2114 aquastat red and white wires in zone 1 with priority turned on and the space heating thermostat red and white wires in zone 2.

The problem is that if I wire the high limit 1967 aquastat and the boiler TT wires in series to the Argo's isolated xx relay the boiler doesn't create steam when zone 2 (space heating) is activated, and if I wire them in parallel the boiler creates steam when either zone is activated.

How can I configure the wiring so that the high limit 1967 aquastat handles the boiler water temp for zone 1 and is bypassed for zone 2?

Thanks,
Manny
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-10-13 at 04:59 PM. Reason: added some "white space" for readability
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Old 12-10-13, 04:46 PM
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You sound like you have a hot water system and not steam. You would not have a L4006A high limit with steam.
You would have a pressuretrol as a high limit. Either somebody installed all the wrong controls or you don't have steam.
 
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Old 12-10-13, 04:49 PM
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Manny, can you show us some pictures of your system please?

The "Bermuda" IS a steam boiler. It is possible to pipe an indirect water heater from a steam boiler, but the controls have to be just right...

Were the indirect and Argo panel recently installed? and you are now working to get the thing going with the indirect?

Manny, if you don't have the manual for the boiler, please dowload and read pages 15 (piping for indirect) and page 18 (wiring for indirect).

http://www.crownboiler.com/documents...ion_manual.pdf
 
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Old 12-10-13, 05:02 PM
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I will look more deeply into this shortly, but what I believe at the moment is that you need to move the zone 2 space heating thermostat BACK to where it was for starters.

You can't run the steam demand and the WH demand through the same relay control.

You can probably still use the ARM relay box, (will know for sure after I look it over) but one of the zones will not be needed. You will also not need the priority turned on.

more later...............
 
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Old 12-10-13, 05:26 PM
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The system was installed last year by a plumbing company. The piping to the IWH and the installation of the L4006A-1967 high limit aquastat controller on the boiler were done following figure 13 (indirect water heater boiler side piping) diagram on page 15 of the BSI installation manual. They wired the 1967 high limit aquastat in parallel with the boiler's thermostat wires to the Argo's isolated relay marked X1-X1, which was causing the boiler to create steam all the time. I rewired them in series which now causes the boiler burner to turn off for both zones when the water inside the boiler reaches 160 degrees.
 
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Old 12-10-13, 05:30 PM
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Forgot to mention, yes it is a steam boiler and it does have a pressuretrol.
 
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Old 12-10-13, 05:48 PM
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Here ya go Manny... this is how you want to wire it.

As I said, you can't run the space heating thermostat on the Argo, nor do you need the priority, but it won't make any difference if you switch it on or off.

This is the same as the hookup in the Bermuda manual, with the Argo substituted for the Honeywell relay.

 
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Old 12-10-13, 05:53 PM
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system was installed last year by a plumbing company
I still want to see pictures.

They wired the 1967 high limit aquastat in parallel with the boiler's thermostat wires to the Argo's isolated relay marked X1-X1
Graduates of "Bozo's School of P&H" no doubt. Couldn't read the diagrams a couple pages further in the manual I suppose?

I rewired them in series which now causes the boiler burner to turn off for both zones when the water inside the boiler reaches 160 degrees.
Step in the right direction. It would seem that all you need to do now is to move the space heating thermostat off the Argo panel and wire as shown in the diagram.
 
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Old 12-10-13, 05:54 PM
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it does have a pressuretrol.
I am curious to know what the pressure settings are on the aquastat, both the CUT IN, AND the CUT OUT (which is INSIDE the control box, a white wheel)

If their track record with the wiring is any indication, they have it set way too high...
 
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Old 12-10-13, 06:31 PM
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Thanks NJ Trooper!

I'll borrow a digital camera to take some pictures and will post them as soon as possible. With the exception of the space heating thermostat wires I have everything else wired as shown in your diagram.

Question?

If I leave the space heating thermostat wires connected to zone 2 on the Argo and then run red and white jumpers from zone 2 to the X1-X1 isolated relay wouldn't that result in the same outcome as your diagram below when zone 2 activates? The only reason that I am asking is because if that can be done then I would know when the space heating is making a call for heat (the Argo zone 2 light would turn on).

Thanks again,
Manny
 
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Old 12-10-13, 07:33 PM
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Why are you using the relay for your heating t-stat at all. Just run heat t-stat to your TT terminals on your boiler as though the boiler was for heat only.

The only reason you need a relay in this case is because the circulator is 120v and your system is 24v.
If you wire the IHW aquastat to the t-stat terminals on the Argo and wire the 120v feed and circulator as shown and the then wire another t-star wire From xx to TT on the boiler that's all you need.
Why are the looking for a high limit on this. This is basically run as a cold start system. The operating aquastat on the tank through the relay will operate the circulator and boiler. It operates the same as a tankless in the summer.
All you needed was a simple R845 relay. Your steam is completely separate from your hot water. You need the relay to turn on the boiler on a call for hot water.
There making this much more difficult than it needs to be.
 
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Old 12-10-13, 08:11 PM
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If I leave the space heating thermostat wires connected to zone 2 on the Argo and then run red and white jumpers from zone 2 to the X1-X1 isolated relay wouldn't that result in the same outcome as your diagram below when zone 2 activates?
If you are asking what I think you are asking.... good grief NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...

Are you asking if you can run wires from the Zone 2 PUMP OUTPUT terminals over to the X1-X2 terminals? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Feeding the 120VAC that comes OUT of those terminals to the endswitch would cause a big KAPOW the instant that zone called for heat! sparks would fly and it would be quite a while before you had any heat because all the controls would need to be replaced!

Besides, it would NOT be the same outcome even if it would work because the aquastat would still be 'in the way' of a space heating call and the boiler still would not steam.

My apologies if I've misunderstood...
 
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Old 12-10-13, 08:20 PM
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Why are the looking for a high limit on this.
Because when he wants hot water only, in the summer for example, he doesn't want the boiler to steam so there must be a way to cut off the burner before the water gets hot enough to steam.

All you needed was a simple R845 relay.
Right, as per figure 15 on page 18 of the boiler manual.

Since the Argo is already in place as installed by Bozo, Moe, Larry and Curly, there's no reason not to use it as shown in the diagram I posted. Serves the same purpose as the 845.

You need the relay to turn on the boiler on a call for hot water.
And the high limit aquastat to prevent steaming on a hot water only call.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 02:05 PM
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I thought I read where they want an operating aquastat for the the tank plus it looks like they are also looking for a another high limit aquastat.
What I'm saying is you only need the the one on the tank which will control the temp and stop the boiler from reaching steam. The aquastat controls the tank, the t-stat controls the the steam.
The both will operate the boiler.

If you go back in an earlier post somewhere they're looking for 2 aquastats.
1 for the tank and 1 for HIGH LIMIT.

I questioned why they need 2 and not just 1 to run the tank.
It will make on temp. fall and break on rise.

I
Am I missing something.
 

Last edited by spott; 12-11-13 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 12-11-13, 04:16 PM
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I don't understand what you are saying Spott... you want to call for heat for the indirect in the same way you call for space heating? That is, to make steam?

The TANK needs an aquastat to call the boiler when it needs heat.

That aquastat needs to do two things,
1. Start a circulator
2. Call the boiler for heat.

When the boiler is called for heat from the indirect, what is going to stop the boiler from making steam when it's not needed, unless there is a limiting aquastat installed on the boiler?

Look at the diagram from the manufacturer in the Bermuda install manual:

http://www.crownboiler.com/documents...ion_manual.pdf

Page 18, Figure 15.

They even provide a tapping on the boiler for mounting the limiting aquastat. Would they do this if it were not needed?

This is nothing new... hot water loops for indirects and hot water heating loops have been piped off steam boilers using this control scheme for like ever...
 
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Old 12-11-13, 04:35 PM
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Trooper I'm apparently not making myself clear. He does need an aquastat for the IHW heater. That's what will control the temp and not allow the steam.
All I'm saying is he doesn't have to use the relay for his heating thermostat. Only for the Indirect.
Post #11 & #14 I thought that 's what I said, at least that's what I meant.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 04:50 PM
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He does need an aquastat for the IHW heater. That's what will control the temp and not allow the steam.
If the indirect was cold and needed to heat up to 120F the boiler would steam before the indirect got to 120f and shut the burner down..

The aquastat tells the boiler to shut down at a below steam temp even though the indirect may still be calling for heat...

Make sense spott?
 
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Old 12-11-13, 04:52 PM
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All I'm saying is he doesn't have to use the relay for his heating thermostat. Only for the Indirect.
Post #11 & #14 I thought that 's what I said, at least that's what I meant.
I guess I'm just not understanding... but I'm now wondering if you can see the diagram I posted on your phone? It's in post #7 ...

I think I'm confused because it seemed to me that you are saying that the only aquastat needed is the one on the tank. In fact I've gone back and re-read 11 and 14 and you pretty much seem to be clearly saying this?

From 11

then wire another t-star wire From xx to TT on the boiler that's all you need.
Why are the looking for a high limit on this.
You are saying to wire the XX on the Argo relay to the TT on the boiler. and then questioning the high limit... aren't you?

And that won't work because when the indirect calls for heat, the boiler can make steam.

Then, in 14, you said:

What I'm saying is you only need the the one on the tank which will control the temp and stop the boiler from reaching steam
Again... "...you only need the one on the tank..." aren't you maintaining that the high limit aquastat in series as shown in the diagrams is NOT needed?

I really don't want to argue this point, but it does seem to me as if either you are misunderstanding me, or I'm misunderstanding you... and we should clear it up.

This system NEEDS a HIGH LIMIT on the boiler in series with the indirect endswitch in order to prevent the boiler from steaming on a call from the indirect when steam is not needed or wanted.

Agree?
 
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Old 12-11-13, 04:54 PM
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Yes lawrosa, that,s exactly what I'm saying or trying to. Apparently, it's not coming out right.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 04:58 PM
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So then you do agree that the high limit aquastat in series with the X X from the Argo to the T T on the boiler is needed?

In ADDITION to the aquastat on the water heater?

And you agree that the diagram I posted in #7 is correct?
 
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Old 12-11-13, 05:00 PM
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Yes, we are on the same page. Yours sounds better and when reading makes more sense. I do agree with you though.

Trooper & lawtosa,
Sorry for the confusion, it's been a long couple of days. Mind going in a million different directions.
In fact Trooper if you want, just delete #11 & 14 so no one else gets confused. If I confused you guys I can only imagine what others are going through.
 

Last edited by spott; 12-11-13 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 12-11-13, 05:01 PM
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Phew! I thought I was goin' NUTZ! wait... too late!
 
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Old 12-11-13, 05:31 PM
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Been LMAO at the back and forth on this subject.. The only points that I would add are that there MUST be a tempering valve on the domestic to prevent scalding during those times the IWH is calling and the boiler is steaming, and the circulator should be a bronze or stainless steel bodied pump being that it is on an open system... I even go as far as installing a wye strainer with drain valve to protect the pump.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 06:25 PM
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The bronze pump is not needed because it is only boiler water that is being circulated not domestic.
You can use a tempering valve if you like to keep your tank at a higher temp and the then mixing it to the the fixtures but it's not so much because of the steam because the boiler water being circulated into the coil of the tank has nothing to do with the steam. Although the circulating water will be hotter than on just a hot water call the aqustat when satisfied will keep things in check.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 06:47 PM
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Thanks to everyone who has responded,
Special thanks to NJ Trooper, you are truly a gentleman and a scholar!!!

Below is a modified version of NJT's diagram to show everyone how I currently have the wiring configured. The green and red lines are my proposed jumpers from zone 2 terminal block to the boiler's thermostat wires. Would this work or would it cause voltage problems?

I'm still working on taking pictures to upload to show the entire layout.

BTW > The Argo switching relay was my idea, so I'm 100% guilty on that one.

The Astro 250SS is a stainless steel circulator, which as mentioned previously can be used on a steam/open system. Not to argue the point, but all the material that I have read states that you must use a bronze or stainless steel circulator on a steam system.



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Old 12-11-13, 06:57 PM
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A bronze bodied pump is needed because a steam boiler is an "open" system, it is open to the atmosphere, the water passing through the pump carries oxygen... oxygenated water and a cast iron circulator are a bad combination... As far as the mixing valve goes, I did not mean to infer that there is steam passing through the HX but 212 degree water (oxygenated water) does pass through.. The tempering valve is purely for safety's sake.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 07:06 PM
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There is a Honeywell mixing valve installed. I'll take a picture of it.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 07:55 PM
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Below is a modified version of NJT's diagram to show everyone how I currently have the wiring configured. The green and red lines are my proposed jumpers from zone 2 terminal block to the boiler's thermostat wires. Would this work or would it cause voltage problems?
No, not acceptable.

There is 24VAC from the transformer in the Argo on those thermostat terminals.

You also have 24VAC (I'll look again at the wiring of the Bermuda to confirm after I post) powering the controls on the boiler.

I just looked... do NOT connect as you've shown. At the VERY LEAST you will burn out the relay coil on the boiler. Depending on how long it takes for that coil to burn out, you could alsol end up with two transformer secondaries 'cross connected' and one, or both, of them will burn out. It could also take out your gas valve.

Sorry, there's no way to do what you want. (to use the zone light in the Argo to indicate when the space heating thermostat is calling)

All these types of controls are designed for what is called a "Dry Contact Closure" which means that the thermostat connections must have no other power applied from an external source. "DRY" means NO VOLTAGE.

Note that on the Argo, the X X terminals are called "ISOLATED SWITCH" and this means that the contacts are "DRY", or "ISOLATED" from any power source... just a set of switch contacts.

If you have a multimeter, go ahead and place that meter across the thermostat connections on the Argo... if the thermostat is NOT calling for heat you will see 24VAC nominal. This voltage is coming from the transformer in the Argo.

Do the same for the thermostat connections on the boiler (again with the thermostat NOT calling for heat) and you will see 24VAC there as well. This voltage is coming from the transformer inside the boiler.

Connecting those two transformers together will definitely damage something... could get very expensive!
 
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Old 12-16-13, 07:37 PM
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Hi,

Below are pictures of the equipment and layout of the BSI103 / MS-40 system.
I made the changes that NJT suggested. Both space heating and IWH calls are being satisfied, however, IWH stainless steel circulator continues to circulate boiler water above 160F. If the IWH makes a call during or right after a space heat call the water being circulated is over 190F, per infrared temperature gun.
The current setup will work perfectly outside of winter, but could possibly burn out the IWH SS circulator during heating seasons.

Thanks,
Manny

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Old 12-17-13, 09:17 AM
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possibly burn out the IWH SS circulator during heating seasons.
Probably a 'non-issue', manufacturer spec says:

Max Fluid Temp: 230F

You could add a bypass pipe around the boiler from return to supply with a globe valve on it. Slightly opening this bypass valve would allow some of the return water to bypass the boiler and mix back with the water being sent to the indirect. This would provide slightly cooler water to the indirect... if you are that concerned about it.

If it was an issue, I'm thinking that Crown would have pointed it out in the installation book.
 
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Old 12-17-13, 01:14 PM
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Thanks NJT for all of your help. I will leave the wiring and piping as is.

Are there any other changes that you would recommend?

Should I increase the L4006A-1967 differential currently set at 10 to 15 or 20?

Are the pressuretrol main & differential settings both currently at 1.5 psi o.k.?
 
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Old 12-17-13, 04:25 PM
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230 degrees F. corresponds to a steam pressure of about 5 psi. Keep the pressure below 2 psi and it is a non-issue as Troop[er states.
 
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Old 12-17-13, 04:52 PM
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Are there any other changes that you would recommend?
Looks pretty good to me...

Should I increase the L4006A-1967 differential currently set at 10 to 15 or 20?
I would. Try 20... Boiler will still heat to 160 on indirect heat call, but will cool to 140 after it hits that. Still plenty hot to heat the tank. You MIGHT notice a slightly longer recovery time because instead of the water cycling between 150 and 160 it now will cycle between 140 and 160, but if you can live with it, the higher diff setting should save you some fuel because you will be using more of the heat that otherwise would be wasted by 'stranding' in the boiler. If recovery is still too slow for your liking, bump up the MAIN setting about 5 and see how that goes. Note that the boiler manual calls for a 180 setting for the aquastat...

Bottom line is that you should try to keep the water from the boiler at least 20F hotter than the water in the tank. The less difference between the heating water and the domestic water, the longer the recovery time. Keeping the boiler average temperature as low as possible consistent with adequate recovery time of the water heater will give best fuel economy. This sounds a little like a contradiction though... going TOO low on the boiler water will HURT because the boiler will have to run and run to reheat the tank. There's a 'balancing point' that you need to find.

You might discover that going to 170 with a 30 diff is even better...

Since you have a domestic tempering valve, presumably set at 120, you can bump up the temp on the water heater aquastat also. If you find yourself running out of hot water on occasion, running the tank at higher temp will tend to 'extend' the hot water available because the mixing valve will mix in some cool water to bring the temp delivered to the home down to 120. There will be LESS of the hot water in the tank being used.

I would keep the DIFF on the tank at 10F (if it's adjustable)

If you increase the tank, also increase the boiler, keep at least 20 higher (minus the diff, remember that with a 20 diff, the water will cool 20 below the setpoint) on the boiler.

Are the pressuretrol main & differential settings both currently at 1.5 psi o.k.?
I don't think so.

I'm not sure the setting ranges on your control. I see conflicting information on the web in various places.

Is the MAIN on yours 1.0 - 8.0 and the DIFF 0.75 - 2.0 ?

With your control, the DIFF is SUBTRACTIVE, so the 'CUT-IN' pressure is defined as ( MAIN - DIFF ) and the 'CUT-OUT' is the MAIN.

With them both set the same, the boiler pressure has to drop to ZERO before the burners refire. This is probably not optimal and could potentially cause the boiler to delay firing during a heat call while waiting for pressure to go all the way to zero.

I would try for a 'CUT-IN' of 0.5 PSI and a 'CUT-OUT' of 1.5 PSI.

The lower the pressure, and this sounds contrary but it is true, the FASTER the steam moves through the system.

Using higher pressure than necessary increases fuel use exponentially.

Always strive for the LOWEST steam pressure possible.

Leave the MAIN at 1.5 and DECREASE the DIFF to 1.0
 
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