Halp! Backward valves and compression fitting woes

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Old 12-10-13, 04:58 PM
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Halp! Backward valves and press fitting woes

HI! So I bought a house a year ago and it didn't seem to be as cold as it is this year plus I was home a lot less. Now I'm noticing a wicked water hammer in both zones when it shuts off. Well, ******* that installed the system (came with the house) decided to install the valves backwards, upside down, against the flow. This has to be the problem.

Now I've sweated some serious copper in a ****ty crawl space this summer so I'm pretty good with the torch and solder. However, the ******* didn't sweat the entire system and used a lot of press fittings around the boiler, I think you can see these fittings in the photos. The valves themselves are soldered on but within, at most, 12inches there are press fittings. I've heard that these are delicate as they have some sort of O-ring or rubber in them.

Obviously I want to keep the heat to a minimum but what would be the best procedure to remove these valves?

Do I use a pipe cutter to remove the entire valve assembly and then use the torch to remove the pipe out of the valves? This would necessitate adding couplers and a little extra copper when re-installing.

- OR -

Do I just use heat on the joints of the valve assembly and remove the valve that way which would eliminate needing to add couplers to put the valve back in? I could tie a wet cold rag around the press fittings to keep it cooler.


How delicate are those press fittings?

A plumber quoted me 3 hours to reverse the valves on both zones and install a spirovalve as my system lacks one (this isn't a big deal, I've gotten pretty good at purging air somehow). So probably ~$240. I guess I'm just looking for validation to do it one way or the other, if the joints near the valves were sweated I wouldn't even think twice about doing it myself but I'm worried about those other fittings which if I mess up could cost me a lot more than $240 to repair.


I make mistakes no doubt but come on, why would you place arrows going against each other?!!? This has to be one of the dumbest things I've seen in this house and this old house has had a lot of dumb stuff done to it.
 
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Last edited by illegalsmile; 12-10-13 at 05:10 PM. Reason: compression fittings are NOT the same as press fittings.
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Old 12-10-13, 05:14 PM
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after reading more about press fits maybe i should just go with a compression/sharkbite type fitting on both sides of the valves and not worry about sweating anything?
 
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Old 12-10-13, 05:26 PM
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These are called propress fittings. There is no soldering involved but there is a special tool needed.
If you go on ( pexsupply.com) and search propress fittings to see what they are.

There are boneheads out there.
I got called to a brand new house that wouldn't heat and after numourus return trips by the contractor and telling the owners they were nuts, there was nothing wrong I got a call. It was about a 10 min. call to realize he had piped something backwards and this guy was supposed to be a professional.
 
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Old 12-10-13, 06:50 PM
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PROPRESS! Ok! So that's good to know but what should I do? How delicate are propress fittings? What's the best way to go about this?

Sigh, boneheads, that's why whenever I hire someone to do something I insist I'm at least home and at most watching everything they do with questions.
 
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Old 12-10-13, 08:49 PM
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The reason they are using propress is because it's pretty obvious that they 5uck at soldering!

I bet John Prine could solder better than that...

Pull back with the camera a bit and give us a wider angle view of all the valves that need work.
 
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Old 12-10-13, 09:19 PM
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Those are fastened with a powerful crimping tool. I believe the downside is they're on for life. If you go utube and search propress fittings you can see how they fasten them. To my knowledge they have to be cut out. I know you solder but sharkbite fittings are removable if need be. You just push them together and there's a little plastic tool to pull them apart.
I know it seems a lot are using these things but I still like soldering.
Just my opinion.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 07:12 AM
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Will take photos after work that show most of the system.

I like soldering too, it's easy, feels solid and looks clean.

The valves themselves aren't propressed.


My question and area of concern is how delicate are propress fits with regard to heat?

In the first picture you can see the 90deg bend is only a few (~4in) away from the solder joint on the bottom of the valve. I'm thinking I'm going to have to remove the 90 and replace that whole section as I've never soldered UP into anything like that. Can you solder against gravity?
 
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Old 12-11-13, 07:27 AM
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Can you solder against gravity?
Yes the flux will pull the solder into the joint.......

I cabnt see the arrow good... Are you sure the valves are backwards?
 
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Old 12-11-13, 09:23 AM
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Absolutely positive they're backwards. Even had a real-life plumber come and check it out to confirm. The arrow on the pump points ↑up from the boiler towards the zone valves and the zone valves point ↓down towards the pump.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 10:40 AM
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As lawrosa said you can solder up, as the flux will pull the solder into the joint. Make sure to clean well.
As far as the heat and propress fitting, I don't know, not having ever used them. I would say not much since they have a rubber O ring that provides the seal.

If you want to try it I would put a wet cloth around the propress fitting to help keep it cool. If it doesn't work you can always cut it out or if it's easier to just cut it out and redo with solder.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 10:55 AM
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The arrow on the pump points ↑up from the boiler towards the zone valves and the zone valves point ↓down towards the pump.
And everyone is certain that the pump itself is not installed backward?

If the arrow on the pump is pointing AWAY from the boiler, then that pump must be installed on the HOT SUPPLY OUT of the boiler.

Is it?
 
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Old 12-11-13, 11:01 AM
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The arrow on the pump points ↑up from the boiler towards the zone valves and the zone valves point ↓down towards the pump.

That would be correct... The pump pumps away as it is on the feed side. The zone valves are on the return side correct? This would be correct orientation..

Even had a real-life plumber come and check it out to confirm.
Was it "heat um" and "cheat um" plumbing and heating?...
 
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Old 12-11-13, 01:18 PM
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Yes the pump is installed on the hot supply out, the installer messed up the install too but it works. Here's how I imagine it and a diagram from my boiler manual, i don't have a zone circulator/pump, there's just the one pump for both. Will be home in an hour or two to take more photos.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 02:11 PM
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So the pump is right, the zone valves are wrong by the looks of things.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 02:21 PM
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You have primary and secondary piping as you show with the tees? And no zone circ?
 
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Old 12-11-13, 02:41 PM
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lawrosa, i believe so, the water heats up, goes through the pump/circulator, there's a T and then two zones/valves with nothing but copper piping and radiators between the zone valve and the return pipe.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 02:44 PM
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Can you take more pics of the boiler and piping please?
 
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Old 12-11-13, 03:05 PM
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Just arrived home! Here they are, let me know if you want closeup. I plan to cleanup the wiring and in general clean up everything.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 03:45 PM
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Those zone valve arrows are pointing toward the boiler? He must have been standing on his head or a reasonable faximile thereof when he installed them.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 03:48 PM
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No P/S I can see....

You are set like this... Cant see arrows on zone valves but if backwards then turn them.....

Curious as to what they did with the tapping behind the flue pipe off the boiler?




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Old 12-11-13, 04:03 PM
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yes the arrows on the valves point down towards the arrow pointing up on the circulator

the pipe behind the flue is the cold fill if that's what you mean? a lot of the stuff done in this house before i showed up was poorly rigged, the boiler and water heater, while they may not look it, are new within the last 4-5 years.

thanks for all your help DIY, i'm going to reverse the valves on friday and have a nice night sleep without ear plugs or hearing a huge bang every time a zone shuts off!
 
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Old 12-11-13, 04:34 PM
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He must have been standing on his head or a reasonable faximile thereof when he installed them.
No... they look OK to me! The printing on the cover is upright!

===============

I think if you try to unsolder the pipes from those valves you are going to be sorry.

It always takes more heat to unsolder a pipe than it does to solder it. You will end up putting too much heat on the valves and melt the plastic ball inside. I would worry more about the valves then the propress.

If I were doing this, I would cut the pipe as far away from the valve as possible, leaving the pipe stub soldered into the valve and flip the whole thing over and reconnect using 'repair couplings', which are couplings that don't have a 'stop' in the middle. They will slide over the pipe... so you slide the coupling onto the pipe, put the valve with the stubs back in line, flipped over, slide the couplings down over the cut section and solder.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 04:39 PM
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Looking more at the pics... I think this was the installers first rodeo.

Expansion tank upside down too.

I don't see an air scoop.

You DO have an air vent, but the point they mounted it is so ridiculous it's laughable. Nobody that had a clue would mount an air vent like that.

Out of the discharge side of the pump, and an immediate 'right turn Clyde' ? That's more than laughable, it's just stupid.

I'm sure there's more, but my soapbox is starting to collapse, so I'll step down now.
 
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Old 12-11-13, 05:36 PM
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I was having a discussion today with a plumber. I said... wouldn't it make more sense to put the circulation pump on the return side so it runs cooler and lasts longer. He said it doesn't make a difference. I didn't argue. Does it make a difference ?
 
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Old 12-11-13, 05:38 PM
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I was having a discussion today with a plumber. I said... wouldn't it make more sense to put the circulation pump on the return side so it runs cooler and lasts longer. He said it doesn't make a difference. I didn't argue. Does it make a difference ?
Not for temperature reasons........
 
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Old 12-12-13, 02:13 PM
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f I were doing this, I would cut the pipe as far away from the valve as possible, leaving the pipe stub soldered into the valve and flip the whole thing over and reconnect using 'repair couplings', which are couplings that don't have a 'stop' in the middle. They will slide over the pipe... so you slide the coupling onto the pipe, put the valve with the stubs back in line, flipped over, slide the couplings down over the cut section and solder.
Grand idea, thank you I will do exactly that. Turns out I still have couplers left from another project so I won't even have to make a hardware store run!

Part of me wants to redo the whole setup when I flip the valves but being that the temperature is well below freezing and that I've never installed a boiler (though I can follow directions and ask questions like a mofo) I think that will be a summer/fall project.

The other thing I realize too is that the temperature sensor is on the return side so the boiler is heating the water up more than it needs it seems The plumber I had over said that having the hot water go through the circ pump can possibly hurt the lifespan of the pump but it's really a non-issue.

I'll let you all know how it goes when I do this tomorrow. The help has been fantastic, thank you.
 
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Old 12-12-13, 06:03 PM
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The other thing I realize too is that the temperature sensor is on the return side so the boiler is heating the water up more than it needs it seems
Huh? What temperature sensor are you talking about?

The plumber I had over said that having the hot water go through the circ pump can possibly hurt the lifespan of the pump but it's really a non-issue
The explanation that I've heard for years and years is that 'back in the day', in the last century, the materials that were used in the pump seals and other parts were not as tolerant of high temperature. It made sense to install the pumps on the return.

Today's pumps with modern materials really don't seem to care. Manufacturers if consulted would tell you that their products can handle the higher temps just fine.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 11:26 AM
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There's an inline temp/pres sensor on the return side but that has nothing to do with how the system operates. Disregard that statement.

I have a problem. I reversed both valves and there's no leaking which in my mind is great since I'm always concerned that solder won't flow in, I tried to purge the system but I think I have an airlock now because there's no hot water moving around, circ pump turns on, boiler kicks on and heats the water to ~180, valves open but the zones don't heat up like they should, they get kind of warm but I'm not sure how much of that is just from the copper heating up.

Anyways, I'm going to try to purge the system again using the fast fill and opening zones.

I had one a plumbing company come out and look at it and they quoted me $2700 to fix the system. WTF. The plumber INSISTED that the zone valves and the circ pump could NOT be on the supply side and HAD to be switched to the return. Remove & relocated pump was $520, remove and relocate zone valves is $754, purge the system is $362, then there are other things like adding an air removal system, replacing the relief valve (which i think is set at like 30psi and works fine but guy seemed to think differently) and "minor" boiler clean. He refused to purge the system as it would just be a "band-aid."

Anyways, I have another guy from a smaller more local company is coming out this afternoon if I can't figure out the airlock. I think I've removed one of the air locks from the bedroom zone, now i have to figure out the living room zone, I might just let the system run and see if it will push it out. If not I'll try to purge that zone again.

How long should purging take? I must have pushed 20+gallons through the system using the fast fill trying to remove air.

All that said, 47deg isn't a bad temp to keep the house o_O
 
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Old 12-14-13, 11:30 AM
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How long should purging take? I must have pushed 20+gallons through the system using the fast fill trying to remove air.
You may have only been purging the boiler itself...

I need to look at your pics again to see if you have a valve you can close to force the water through the zone rather than the path of least resistance... standby...
 
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Old 12-14-13, 11:33 AM
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I can't see a helluva lot in the pics...

Tell me exactly what you are doing in the purge effort.

Also, the feed water is coming into the boiler at the vertical pipe left rear, correct?

That BLUE valve is a shutoff on the return line?
 
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Old 12-14-13, 11:47 AM
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I've included a diagram and a link to the larger image, maybe this will help.

Sharper/Better Image @ Imgur Maybe helpful as it's higher resolution but still a camera phone.


1) Open all valves minus the drain
2) Fill to 12psi
3) Bucket underneath the drain valve (1)
4) Close isolation valve (2) and close zone valves (4a/4b)
5) Flip 3b to fast fill
6) Open first zone 4a, open drain valve (1) and turn on 3a to do a fast fill
7) Let this run through 5-10gal around 20psi
8) Turn off 3a, close valve 4a, close drain valve (1) at ~12psi
9) Repeat those steps for second zone, 4b
10) Turn off fast-fill
11) Open isolation valve (2)
12) Make sure system is at ~12psi and turn on


So zone 4b WAS working, i.e. radiators were heating up, but now all the sudden it's not, air locked again? Is my procedure whack?
 
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Old 12-14-13, 12:07 PM
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Is my procedure whack?
I wouldn't say that... seems it's all you've got!

Closing the isolation valve and feeding the return should force the water backward through the zones, down the supply and into the boiler. Of course, there won't be any air coming out the drain... you might succeed in moving the air from the zones and into the boiler, but the problem now becomes what do you do to get that air out of the boiler?

You've got no air bleeders on the baseboard loops at all?

Is the cap on the air bleeder above the pump open?

OK, here's a whack idea, but it might work...

Remove the air bleeder... yes, you're going to probably have to drain some...

That's a 1/8" pipe thread so you need to figure out what fittings you need to adapt to a drain valve.

Install drain valve in place of air bleeder... hook drain hose to bucket at that point.

When doing what you did before, instead of using bottom drain on boiler, use drain valve that you just added.

The water and air mix won't go into the boiler, instead, out the drain.

OR... if you are draining ANYWAY, and seem to have had luck resoldering the zone valves, you could cut the vent adapter off the pipe, add a threaded TEE fitting and screw a drain into that fitting. Replace the air vent on top of the tee...

You've got to find a way to get that air OUT of the system... not back into the boiler where it will only circulate around and end up back in the zones.

ANOTHER possibility... depending on how brave you are with the soldering torch... is to cut into that horizontal section out of the pump, before it turns up to the zone valves and add a ball valve on the left, and a drain on the right. You could now close that ball valve and hose on the drain and push water out that way...

LAST and least... find a piece of flexible tubing that will fit OVER that air vent fitting... remove the air vent, slide hose over fitting and secure with hose clamps.

Maybe a plastic ball valve on the end of the hose...

Run that into your bucket...

Whatever you do, the goal is to get the air OUT of the system.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 12:08 PM
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I see a green valve behind your smoke pipe. I believe that's your feed valve and it looks like it's feeding into the return line above the blue shutoff. How is the water going through the zone and where are you draining it from.

If you have the blue valve shut how is the water getting pinto the supply through the boiler.
With that valve shut the water is forced back through the system. Where's your drain.

It looks like you could possibly be draining the same water as is going in without going through the system unless there are other valves I can't see.

Need good pics of feed valve and where it goes and drains.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 12:17 PM
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Spott, that pipe coming down on the right going behind the flue pipe is the water feed, the green thing appears to be a Taco pressure reducing valve.

That pipe comes back up on the left side and tees into the return just to the lower left of the left hand zone valve in the pic.

With the blue valve closed, and the boiler drain open, and either zone valve manually open, there will be reverse flow through the zone which would push the air and water into the boiler...

Of course, air floats, so the air won't come OUT of the system, only collect at the top of the boiler.

See my previous post... and my possible solutions...

Personally, I would cut that horizontal pipe and add a purge station there, but that could prove troublesome.

I don't know that one could get enough FLOW by adapting a drain to the 1/8" vent fitting... the flow might not be enough to move the air down out of the zones... but threaded stuff is the easiest to try in a pinch.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 12:27 PM
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I was posting @ the same time. You need the water to go through the zone valves that you now faced the right way except when feeding backwards.

How about this:

On your return line above where your feeding. Cut in a ball valve and a a draw off above the ball valve.
Now you close that ball valve and open the blue shutoff.
The water now goes into the boiler, up through the zones the right way and out the new drain on the return.
You don't use your boiler drain. Use the new one on the return.

It looks like you have plenty of room and it's easy soldering for you.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 12:44 PM
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Just show us the tapping behind the circ or behind the flue pipe... Dont know where it is. Most plumbers just cap it with 1'2" nipple and cap...

Remove cap and add air vent...
 
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Old 12-14-13, 12:45 PM
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Wait its there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..... If its working you should have no issues... make sure cap is loose...

Actually Duh!!! Its right there on the pump...


But there should be one at the tapping...


 
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Old 12-14-13, 12:52 PM
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Mike, that's the air vent that you see above the circ pump in the full frontal foto.

On your return line above where your feeding. Cut in a ball valve and a a draw off above the ball valve.
Now you close that ball valve and open the blue shutoff.
Yes, another possibility... put the 'purge station' above the tee that the water feeds into...

Think vertically...


boiler----blue valve----water feed tee---- BALL VALVE ---- DRAIN VALVE ---- rest of system

With this setup, water flows normal direction when purging.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 12:52 PM
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Mike, that's the air vent that you see above the circ pump in the full frontal foto.
Yes I edit my post... I see that now... But it will be easiest to add a air vent where its supposed to go IMO...




As in the manual for your boiler........


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Old 12-14-13, 01:01 PM
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Well I'm going to look at your posts in more depth spott & lawrosa but it seems 3rd time is the charm for purging...

Instead of going drain valve right into bucket I used a hose which gave me more information about air leaving the system, i closed valve #2, did one zone at a time and used the fast fill to keep line pressure at ~20psi, this seemed to clear out any large pockets of air though there is definitely some air still in the system. I'm going to let the house heat up to 60, let it run for a few hours and see how it's doing and decide where to go from there.

Where could I buy a spirovent in town?
 
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