Toe Kick Heater Installation - Piping Layout Question

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Old 12-11-13, 09:54 PM
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Toe Kick Heater Installation - Piping Layout Question

I am looking to install a wall-mounted toe kick heater in an insulated garage. I've checked many of the "toe kick heater" threads but I didn't find the answer to my question, so here goes:

The unit will be installed on, not in, the wall. The pipe I am using to feed the heater runs vertically down the wall on top of the sheetrock, so it i svery accessible. My question has to do with the pipe layout. Here are two scenarios:

Note: the two circles on each layout represent monoflow tees. Feed pipe is 3/4", Toe Kick piping is 1/2"

Name:  Pipe Layout.JPG
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Which one of these would work the best? If there is another layout that would work better feel free to post it.

Thanks for your help!

PS: does anyone have a "favorite" toe kick heater brand?
 
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Old 12-11-13, 10:15 PM
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They both will work... From what I know you want 12" min between the tees, and you only need one mono flo tee I believe, unless the heater is below the boiler like in a basement...

Also install a ball valve inbetween the tees for ease of purging....
 
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Old 12-11-13, 11:10 PM
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Thanks the quick response! The heater will be around the same height as the boiler, which is also in the garage. If I'm only using one mono flo tee, does it matter where it goes: inlet or outlet?
 
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Old 12-12-13, 07:24 AM
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Depending on the BTU output of the toe kick, I don't think one monoflo is going to give you enough flow through the heater.

How many BTU is the toe kick, and what do you hope to achieve in terms of heating the garage?

Is the pipe you are planning on cutting into a hot supply FROM the boiler? or a cooler return TO the boiler?

If it's on the supply side going TO other heaters, you should know that those other heaters will be getting COOLER water after installation and will cut back on their BTU output.

If on the return side back to the boiler, you won't get the full BTU potential output that you could, because it is being fed cooler water.

If the boiler is 'right there', why not just do 'home runs' back to the boiler and get full flow, BTU output, and minimal impact to any of the other heat emitters?

By the way, the right had drawing has the one monoflo right next to an elbow and this is not a good idea. Since monoflo fittings rely on flow in order to develop their pressure differential, adding the turbulence and restriction that elbow will cause right next to a monoflo will no doubt affect it's performance. The 'straight pipe' approach is best, and in order to maximize flow, further apart on the tees is better. I can give you an idea how far apart is good after I see the BTU output specs of the heater you intend to use.
 
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Old 12-12-13, 08:43 AM
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A toe-kick heater takes some of the chill off my kitchen floor - it blows right under the table where we eat. But, don't get your hopes up too high heating a garage.
 
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Old 12-12-13, 09:22 AM
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IMO I would install something like a modine and run it as a zone to the boiler...


 
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Old 12-12-13, 09:45 AM
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I take back what I said about the moonoflo not giving proper flow... just looked at the install manual for the Beacon-Morris kickers and they are OK with monoflow tees, 12-18" apart. They want TWO to be used for 'down-flow' installation, and say that one is acceptable for 'up-flow' applications. I would probably use TWO regardless.

However, the reason I had asked about what you hoped to accomplish is for the same reason that you should re-think the idea... you probably won't get enough heat to do anything significant in a garage.

The concerns over water temperature to downstream rads still apply...

As Mike has said, garages need unit heaters on their own zone.
 
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Old 12-13-13, 09:06 PM
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The Modine units look good, but they are a bit pricey.
Let me give more background on what I'm dealing with. Here is a layout of the garage:Name:  Garage Layout.JPG
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My mother will be living with my sister for about 6 months while our house is being lifted (thanks to Super Storm Sandy). My mom cannot get into my sister's bathtub because of the height, so we installed a shower in the garage that is at floor height. Thanks to the timing of the lift, the garage is a bit chilly (don't worry, it is a finished garage with insulated walls. It will eventually be my nephew's "man cave"). My goal is to take the chill out so that she can go into the shower, which is equipped with a combo light/fan/heater. The gas burner provides some residual heat, so we're only talking an increase in temperature of about +/- 25 degrees. The calculations are telling me anywhere between 10K and 15K BTU's to do this.
I was looking at the Turbonics Toester 16/19 or the Beacon-Morris K120.

(BTW - the door to the garage is right above the pantry, and the vertical pipe I am looking to use is between the door and the shower.)

Thanks again for everyone's input!
 
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Old 12-14-13, 09:35 AM
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You aren't answering all my questions though...

Is the pipe you are planning on cutting into a hot supply FROM the boiler? or a cooler return TO the boiler?
If the boiler is 'right there', why not just do 'home runs' back to the boiler and get full flow, BTU output, and minimal impact to any of the other heat emitters?
===============

The calculations are telling me anywhere between 10K and 15K BTU's to do this.
I think you may be right... even if we figure FIFTY BTU/SQ FT, which is VERY high, that comes out to 12K BTUH for 240 sq ft.

You are planning on a 'surface mount cabinet' to house the heater, yes?

The cabinet should be used to get proper air flow through the unit and provide maximum output. Besides, it's gonna be UGLY without the cabinet... and the blower fan will be exposed.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 03:22 PM
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OOPS - sorry about that.
Answer to Question #1: The pipe I am thinking of cutting into is probably about half way along the path from the boiler. The line comes from the boiler and into the living room. it makes it way up into the ceiling and then comes down along the wall where I am talking about. It goes through the wall into the kitchen, and then makes its way back up into the ceiling for the return to the boiler.

Answer to question #2 - Doing homeruns back to the boiler sounds like it might be out of my league. Here's why: There are two zones already. It looks like I'd have to add some threaded pipe for another zone, a new circulating pump, and then purchase a 3-zone controller to replace the current 2-zone controller. The threaded pipe is the part that scares me because I've never really worked with it before. Am I over complicating this?

I am planning on a surface-mount cabinet to neaten it up and also for proper airflow.

Thanks.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 03:29 PM
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That unit has a squirrl cage and is 12K btu at 180 f water...I really dont think its going to do what you want...


Also you will only get heat when the zone your tieing into is running... So you will need to crank the heat up in the home with constant circulation just to try to warm the garage..

IMO your making a mistake with that heater for what you are trying to accomplish..


nswer to question #2 - Doing homeruns back to the boiler sounds like it might be out of my league. Here's why: There are two zones already. It looks like I'd have to add some threaded pipe for another zone, a new circulating pump, and then purchase a 3-zone controller to replace the current 2-zone controller. The threaded pipe is the part that scares me because I've never really worked with it before. Am I over complicating this?
Maybe...


Zone valves or circs for your zones...?
 
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Old 12-14-13, 04:28 PM
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Simple alternative: an electric infrared heater, mounted high on a wall or hanging from the garage ceiling. Use a wall-mounted timer switch that turns up to, say, 30 minutes, so the heater isn't left on when not needed for a shower, etc. The heat can be localized toward the shower area. If you can tie into an existing 120-V, 20-A circuit that's not already heavily loaded, high in a wall or in the ceiling, you can probably use romex all the way. A 240-V heater would be best, but you can find 120-V units, too. Otherwise, simply run a new circuit, using building wire in wiremold (surface mount) or other conduit.

For a 240-V heater you would need a 2-pole timer; for 120V, a single-pole switch will do.

Multiply watts by 3.4 to get Btu/hr. Using an infrared heater in the shower area, you can get by with fewer Btus than your proposed kicker, which will have to try to warm up the whole garage area. An infrared heater will go to work immediately, but a kick-space heater will take time.

I have an infrared heater in my shed, which I use periodically for minor woodworking and other hobbies. Works fine - I run it for a short time, through a timer switch, depending upon how long I need. My heater is 240V, because that voltage is available in my shed.
 

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Old 12-14-13, 05:22 PM
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Circulators.

I had my sister take a picture of the burner. Here it is:

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Any suggestions?

Thanks!
 
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Old 12-14-13, 05:31 PM
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Is this a long term solution?

You have a choice...

1.. Do what you propose.
2.. Install a new zone with a product like the modine
3.. Install electric as gilmorrie advised
4. Run gas line to a product like a salamander heater... ( Although for safety issues I usually never recommend a vent-less unit unless something like a catalyst heater which does not produce CO....)
 
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Old 12-14-13, 07:18 PM
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Short-term solution - like 4-6 months.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 07:33 PM
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Short-term solution - like 4-6 months.

IMO I would run one of these on a timer.. Maybe two of them.... Install a timer switch and a dedicated circuit to your panel...

Done.... less then $100 bucks Im sure.........


AK922 - Air King AK922 - AK922 Double Bulb Heater
 
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Old 12-14-13, 07:43 PM
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Heat lamps are nice indeed... but they don't really heat the room itself much. They're great when standing under them but if the room is like 60F it's still gonna feel drafty and cold once you step out of the light.
 
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Old 12-16-13, 01:50 PM
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Thanks everyone for your assistance! I'll let you know what I decide and how it turns out.
 
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