How to quiet overhead fuel lines?

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Old 12-13-13, 03:03 PM
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How to quiet overhead fuel lines?

I have overhead fuel lines and the "whine" sound coming from them is driving me crazy.

Here is my setup:

Slant Fin Intrepid boiler, 1.10 gal nozzle, Becket Burner.
Two 3/8 diameter copper lines ~25 feet long.
275 gallon Roth tank outside, higher then the burner. The only rise in the fuel line is from the bottom of the Roth tank to the top double tap connection point on the Roth(hope that makes sense). Every point in the fuel lines go downhill or runs vertical in a floor joist cavity. I have access to the entire line and have double checked to make sure the lines do not touch each other or anything else. When the burner is firing I can feel the lines vibrate slightly, I assume that is normal. The whine sound has been there since day one of the Roth install, 10 yrs ago, previously I had a 550 buried.

What else can I do to quiet this thing down ? Would a single line and a Tigerloop help ?
 
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Old 12-13-13, 03:36 PM
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Did you have 2 lines with the 550 tank. If not did you insert the bypass plug into the pump when you went 2 pipe?
 
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Old 12-13-13, 04:28 PM
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Along with Spott's question,

Have you any idea of how much vacuum is on the feed side?

Were NEW fuel lines installed with the new tank?

Where is the oil filter located? I presume it is changed regularly?

Are the feed lines firmly anchored to the structure? Or are they 'isolated' so they don't transmit any vibration into the framing? (perhaps one of the first things I might try would be removing hard 'clamps' to framing and use some pieces of foam pipe insulation to isolate them so they don't couple any of the vibration to the structure)

Has the STRAINER in the fuel pump been checked for blockage? (is it an A2VA pump?)
 
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Old 12-13-13, 04:57 PM
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I had 2 lines with the 550 tank. They were abandoned. The new lines were installed when the Roth was. As I think back, the original Utica boiler was here at the time. That boiler has been replaced. When the Intrepid was installed the contractor utilized both fuel lines because the lines where already in place. I can only assume the plug is installed, after burning many thousands of gallons of oil the pump has not failed yet.

The filter is less than a foot from the burner input. The system is serviced every year by the oil company. They do change the filter. They have not checked the strainer in the last 2 cleanings, they say the additives in the oil prevent sludge and debris from forming. The burner and the whine do sound consistent throughout the year even when the outside temperature gets near single digits. Remember, the whine was present as soon as the new boiler was installed. I do not think it was there with the Utica, that beast had a whole different sound to it, kinda like a low rumble.

I do have foam pipe insulation on the fuel lines in any spot where they contact anything. There are no clamps holding the pipe. If I touch the supply line while the burner is firing, sometimes the pitch of the whine changes.

I have no idea how much vacuum is on the supply side.
 
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Old 12-13-13, 05:00 PM
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Forgot to add, pump is a Suntec A2EA 6520, made exclusively for Beckett according to the label.
 
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Old 12-13-13, 06:50 PM
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Whenever I hear something is whining it makes me think it's straining. Your old boiler probably had a different pump.
It could possibly even been a 2 stage pump. You could have had larger lines.
The only way I see this making any progress in getting solved is first, get a vacuum gauge and see what's happening.
From the oil line layout you described I'm guessing somewhere in the area of 8" of vacuum. This is ballpark.
If it's real high as though the pump is straining, I could bring up a clogged filter or a dirty pump screen but I'm skipping over that because this did it from the get go.

My best guess is you're going to find your pump may not be strong enough to pull and deliver the oil.
Even though you have a 2 pipe system you still have a single stage pump which does as I described. One set of gears does all the work.
A 2 stage pump has 2 sets of gears. One to pull and one to deliver the oil to the nozzle.
Twenty five ft. Of line along the floor by gravity is one thing. Twenty five ft. with lift is something else.
I can't be sure check you vacuum.

If it's whining because of strain the pump won't last long anyway.

Good luck,
 
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Old 12-14-13, 04:30 AM
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Thanks spott for the reply. I will try to get a vacuum gauge. If the pump is straining what would be a suitable replacement ? Would a single line help ? The tank is higher then the burner, so the pump would not have to push the return oil back up to the tank. Any other suggestions ?
 
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Old 12-14-13, 07:50 AM
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Joe, what oil filter are you using? Is there a 'tap' on the top of the filter head?

You may simply be able to remove a plug and install one of these:

Patriot Supply - F100-14

Or if you haven't got a suitable tapping:

Patriot Supply - F100-55

The above should replace the npt to flare fitting on your filter, on the burner side.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 09:09 AM
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NJT, I have General Filter canister. It has a black base and a red top. The top has raised lettering saying "model 1A-25A. In the center of the red top is a bolt with a 5/8" hex head on it. I have seen the service guy remove that bolt to get the filter element out.

The vacuum gauge should go after the filter, correct ? There is a 2" long nipple going from the filter out into the burner. I could install a gauge there.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 10:23 AM
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The vacuum gauge should go after the filter, correct ?
Preferably, yes. That way you would/could know the condition of the filter element as well. You would see vacuum going up and know the filter was due for change.

There is a 2" long nipple going from the filter out into the burner. I could install a gauge there.
Yes... two short nipples and a tee fitting would do it. DO NOT USE TEFLON TAPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only a good dope that is rated for fuel oil. Keep the dope away from the first 2-3 threads, you don't want that in the system either.

Be careful no air leaks... if you are the slightest bit unsure of your ability to get that in there leak free, it's best to ask tech to do it for you.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 11:46 AM
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Once you get the vacuum results you'll know better.
It's not the returning oil, it's the pulling of the oil. The tank is above but so are the oil lines. Between the distance and the height it might be too much for 1 set of gears. You may have to go to a 2 stage pump with 2 sets of gears.
You have a 2 pipe which is no different than a 1 pipe except it bleeds itself. Even though you have 2 pipes it's still 1 set of gears doing both jobs.
 
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Old 12-14-13, 02:20 PM
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Thanks so much for the help. I will acquire a vacuum gauge and some brass fittings and put this together. Also pipe dope rated for fuel oil. I'll report back with my results.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 10:13 AM
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Unexpected results

OK, I'm back.

I hooked up a vacuum gauge paying close attention to Trooper's warnings about Teflon tape and pipe dope. Had everything together in about 10 minutes. Pump started right up, no problems.

The strange part is the whine sound has been reduced by a noticeable amount, still there but not as high pitched. The gauge does not show any vacuum at all. Perhaps I have the wrong type. I have an Ashcroft, on the face it says " 0.2 in Hg subd". As soon as I opened the Firomatic valve the gauge went below the zero mark.

What to do next ?
 
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Old 12-18-13, 10:17 AM
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Perhaps I have the wrong type. I have an Ashcroft, on the face it says " 0.2 in Hg subd". As soon as I opened the Firomatic valve the gauge went below the zero mark.
Are you sure it's a VACUUM gauge and not a PRESSURE gauge? If the gauge went DOWN when you started it up, and you have it on the SUCTION port of the pump, between the filter and the pump, then what you have is a pressure gauge and yes, it will do below zero because a vacuum is a negative pressure.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 10:28 AM
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Yes, the gauge is installed after the oil filter and before the suction side of the pump. Before I installed the gauge I wanted to see the needle move so I sucked on the gauge with my mouth and the needle did move into the numbers, somewhere around 4 or 6 I think. I would show a picture of the gauge but the flash on the camera "whites" out the face of the gauge.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 11:10 AM
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This is the gauge I have. I did not get it on ebay, I borrowed one from work.
Lot of 3 Ashcroft 0 2 in HG Subd Test Gauges | eBay
 
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Old 12-18-13, 11:54 AM
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I have no explanation as to why you apparently have PRESSURE at the suction port of your fuel pump... unless someone really messed up and installed the filter on the DISCHARGE port of the pump...

Have you verified that the system is piped correctly as far as which is suction and which is discharge?

In either/any case, the gauge you have does not have sufficient range. You need a vacuum gauge that goes to at LEAST 10" ...
 
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Old 12-18-13, 12:44 PM
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I just went down stairs to "extra double check" everything.
Here is the layout: Copper oil supply line > Firomatic valve > input side of oil filter canister > output side of oil filter canister > 1/4 black iron T > input to Suntec pump. The "T" is configured so that the oil passes straight through and the gauge is on the top port. On the Suntec pump, the port marked return/bypass has a copper line with no valve on it going back to the tank.

I will get the gauge that you linked to earlier in this thread.

Thanks you so much for your help, I'll be back !

Oh, BTW, after a few run cycles, the "whine" sound is back to the way it was before.
 
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Old 12-18-13, 02:48 PM
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Joe, I'm too lazy to read back... when did you say the last filter change was?
 
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Old 12-19-13, 01:04 AM
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From the original post:
...275 gallon Roth tank outside, higher then the burner.
This says it all, you have a positive head pressure and so it is NORMAL for the vacuum gauge to read a positive pressure. By all rights you should have used a "compound" gauge that had both positive pressure (psi) and negative pressure (" Hg.) to show that you had a positive head.

Whining of fuel oil lines is caused by excessive velocity of the fuel. You no doubt have a two-pipe system that brings oil from the tank to the fuel pump and then sends a portion back to the tank. With the positive head you have no real need of that return oil flow and by converting to a single pipe system you will eliminate the whine and also increase the service life of the filter. Converting to the single pipe fuel system does require either the insertion or removal (I can't remember which) of a "bypass" plug internal to the fuel pump.
 
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Old 12-19-13, 05:19 AM
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Trooper, the filter was changed late August of this year as part of the annual service done by the oil company. The boiler is serviced every year in August.

I ordered the gauge linked to in a previous post in this thread from Patriot supply.

Regarding Firomatic valves, code here requires 2 on the supply line. There is one outside close to the tank and second one is by the boiler. Do double valves affect pump performance ? Do they restrict the flow rate ?
 
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Old 12-19-13, 05:22 AM
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Furd, after a search of this forum it seems the plug gets removed to convert to a single pipe system.
 
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Old 12-19-13, 05:45 AM
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you have a positive head pressure and so it is NORMAL for the vacuum gauge to read a positive pressure
I have essentially the same setup, tank above burner, but running single pipe from the top of the Roth tank. On the filter side I pull a vacuum which is 3" Hg HIGHER because of my OSV which will not open until the vacuum is at that level. If I subtract that 3" from the gauge readings (there are two) of about 5" with clean filters, it tells me that I'm pulling 2" of vacuum.

I've never measured the vacuum on the tank side of the OSV...

Remember that the ROTH is a TOP FEED tank, so there IS LIFT drawing the oil UP before it goes back down again.

If there IS a positive pressure, would not this pressure exist even when the pump is not running? I was under the impression that the pressure did not go positive until the pump started running?

WHAT IF: The bypass plug is NOT installed in a two pipe system?

The purpose of the bypass plug in a positive displacement pump such as an oil filter is to provide a path for the excess oil that is pumped but not diverted to the nozzle line to return to the suction side of the pump.

In a two line system, the plug is installed and the remainder of the oil not pumped is sent to the suction side of the pump by taking the 'long way home'... through the return line to the tank, and ultimately back again.

But what happens if it's a two line and the plug is NOT installed?


Whining of fuel oil lines is caused by excessive velocity of the fuel
And the PUMP will SCREAM with excess vacuum on the suction side. Ever forget to open a fuel valve after changing a filter? Starts off at a whine around 8-10" Hg and gets progressively louder until it sounds like a turbine jet spooling up.

I had one other thought last night about this... another WHAT IF question...

WHAT IF the motor coupling is exerting preload onto the pump shaft. Perhaps it's a tad too long. Wonder if this would cause a noise?
 
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Old 12-19-13, 06:27 AM
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Trooper asked: If there IS a positive pressure, would not this pressure exist even when the pump is not running? I was under the impression that the pressure did not go positive until the pump started running?

As soon as I opened the valve the gauge went below zero. The pump was off at this point. The needle is resting against the post on the bottom of the dial. It stays in the same spot whether the pump is running or not.
 
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Old 12-19-13, 06:38 AM
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As soon as I opened the valve the gauge went below zero. The pump was off at this point. The needle is resting against the post on the bottom of the dial. It stays in the same spot whether the pump is running or not
Thanks Joe... I did misunderstand. Furd has a good point (he usually does!).

So, that being the case, it pretty much indicates that your filter is not clogged, and the whine is not caused by excess vacuum.

How far above the burner is the tank? How many feet?

In your case I would consider converting to single pipe and possibly a TigerLoop.

Do double valves affect pump performance ? Do they restrict the flow rate ?
I think the question is answered... if you have positive pressure at the pump inlet... no.

I have 2 Firomatic, and THREE filters on my oil line... and still no problem with any whine or restriction.
 
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Old 12-19-13, 09:10 AM
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Trooper, The bottom of tank is 6 feet higher then the burner. Piping wise, after the initial lift out of the tank, the oil has a 10 foot drop to the burner. Pipe is as follows: 4 ft drop from top cover of Roth tank > about 10 ft of horizontal run > 6 ft drop into burner. Hope that makes sense.

Regarding the Tigerloop, I just happen to have a brand new one, it's been here for several years now sitting on a shelf.
 
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Old 12-19-13, 02:49 PM
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If I ciphered rightly, it means you've got about 3.75 PSI of pressure at the pump inlet or 7.6" of Hg.

Let me say how I arrived at that number... maybe someone can say if it's right or not:

Water weighs 8.3 LB / GALL and fuel oil comes in around 7.2 LB / GALL

Water column pressure is 0.432 PSI / FT, so 10' of water column would be 4.32 PSI

I believe that the pressure is proportional to the weight of the liquid (at least that's what my smart friend Walter said!), so dividing 7.2 / 8.3 = .867

Multiply 0.867 X 4.32 = 3.75 PSI for 10' column of fuel oil at 7.2 LB / GALL.

Izdat right?

Wonder what the spec on the pump is?

Lift or gravity feed applications
with 10 psi maximum inlet/return
pressure
Looks like yer OK there......................

IIRC, NFPA says no more than 3 PSI at pump inlet... yes, also from Sundstrand manual:

DO NOT

Exceed 10 psi (manufacturer) or 3 psi (NFPA) inlet line pressure.
Exceed 6" hg. running vacuum (for Suntec A and B fuel units) or
2" hg. running vacuum (for Suntec J and H fuel units).
H (height) must not exceed 27 feet to be within manufacturers 10 psi inlet
pressure limit, or 8 feet to be within NFPAs 3 psi inlet pressure limit.
IMPORTANT -- Single-pipe installation is recommended for gravity
feed systems. It produces lower inlet line flow and longer filter life.
For example: an A-70 fuel unit firing 1 gph single-pipe has 1 gph
flowing through the filter; an A-70 pump firing 1 gph two-pipe has
19 gph flowing through the filter.
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-19-13 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 12-19-13, 04:12 PM
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The math looks good to me, I think

I am out of time for this now, guests coming for the holidays, so I can't be tinkering with the boiler. I did order the vacuum gauge so when the holidays are over I will install it and go from there. It does look like I'll be going to a single line system ?

Anyhow, Happy Holidays to all and thank you very much for the assistance. Be back soon.
 
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Old 12-21-13, 12:56 PM
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I know I'm late, as usual, joining a thread.
Your vacuum gauge looks to be fine, having a range up to 30" with subdivsions of 0.2" Hg.
The noise you hear is not at all uncommon & there is a very simple solution: Get rid of the return line.
 
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Old 12-21-13, 01:35 PM
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having a range up to 30" with subdivsions of 0.2" Hg
I had been thinking that I just couldn't see the decimal point and that it was a 3.0" gauge and the the 'subdivisions' were the numbers on the dial... but I think Grady is correct... the SUBdivisions are the small marks BETWEEN the 'divisions'...

So yeah, looks like a 30" gauge with 2.0 DIVISIONS, and 0.2 SUBdivisions.

Sorry bout me old eyes!

Here's the thing though... if you had PRESSURE with the original gauge, you are still going to have pressure with the new gauge. Don't expect different when you hook that new gauge up.

You don't need that return line... as has been said a few times now, get rid of it.
 
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Old 01-02-14, 01:35 PM
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OK, I replaced the original gauge with the one Trooper linked to earlier. That gauge does not move at all when the burner runs. Stays at zero.

Regarding the single line setup, do I have to use a Tigerloop or can I get by without it ?
 
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Old 01-02-14, 04:01 PM
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That gauge does not move at all when the burner runs. Stays at zero.
Because the needle is against the 'pin' I think... as expected, if no vacuum with the other gauge, then no vacuum with this one either.

You could get by without the TL... up to you.

You've got a brandy new one sitting there, why not use it?
 
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Old 01-02-14, 04:21 PM
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So what am I learning from the gauge ? If the needle does not move does it mean the pump is not "sucking" excessively to get oil ?

If I do not use the Tigerloop, the job will be easier to do. My thought was to remove the internal plug in the pump and then plug the hole that the return line is in now.

I am trying to avoid a re pipe of the area in front of the burner if at all possible.
 
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Old 01-02-14, 04:45 PM
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That will be fine. If you find you need the TL you can install later.
 
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Old 01-02-14, 04:54 PM
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So what am I learning from the gauge ? If the needle does not move does it mean the pump is not "sucking" excessively to get oil ?
Yes... but we knew that a bunch of posts back. I think by that time you had already ordered the gauge though.

Post 25:
So, that being the case, it pretty much indicates that your filter is not clogged, and the whine is not caused by excess vacuum.
Post 30:
Here's the thing though... if you had PRESSURE with the original gauge, you are still going to have pressure with the new gauge. Don't expect different when you hook that new gauge up.
What it WILL tell you in the future though is if your filter and/or lines get plugged.

If I do not use the Tigerloop, the job will be easier to do. My thought was to remove the internal plug in the pump and then plug the hole that the return line is in now.

I am trying to avoid a re pipe of the area in front of the burner if at all possible.
That's fine... like I said, up to you! Sure, it's a simple matter to remove the return line, pull the bypass and put in a plug. You could even leave the return line in place and plug it...



You probably would want to use 'flex lines' between the burner and the tigerloop anyway... ESPECIALLY if the boiler has the burner mounted on a 'swing door'.


Patriot Supply - S220-36
 
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Old 01-02-14, 05:51 PM
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Joe C: There's an old saying in the trades that goes something like this: "There three ways to get any job done; good, fast, & cheap. Pick two."
 
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Old 01-11-14, 03:22 PM
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Well it was finally warm enough today for an amateur to play with his oil lines. I did not use the tiger loop, instead, I removed the little plug in the pump and capped the return port. The burner fired right up when I re-applied power. The vacuum gauge reads zero while the pump is running. That's good, right?

I guess the real test will be vacuum leaks when the burner has not run for several hours like in the summer time. I have a DHW tank, the boiler runs every day of the year, but is cold start. We'll see.
 
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Old 01-11-14, 03:39 PM
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Time will indeed tell the tale. I've seen a lot of people get away with the type of system you have now but others, including myself, don't.
 
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