Three zone boiler one zone is not heating

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  #41  
Old 12-15-13, 07:10 PM
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No it did not sound the same one was light humming. The other two Tacos sounded like movement a lot louder.
 
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  #42  
Old 12-15-13, 07:14 PM
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Sorry yes you are right WILO
 
  #43  
Old 12-15-13, 07:21 PM
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I found this so far:

WILO STAR S 16 F
115 VOLT CAST IRON FLANGED PUMP 3 SPEED WITH REMOVABLE CHECK VALVE
(DIFFERENCE BETWEEN STAR S16FX AND STAR S16F IS FX FLANGES ARE ROTATED 90)
I want to believe that the installers removed the check valve in the pump because it was not needed.

When you purged the zones, you had the yellow valve below the red valve CLOSED, is that correct?

And the yellow valves above the pumps, you only had one open for the zone you were purging at the time, is that also correct?

Will you please answer:

And the pressure? It is now staying well below 30 PSI, even when the boiler is 180F ?

The other two zones are still heating properly
?
 
  #44  
Old 12-15-13, 07:21 PM
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I have not had the boiler up to 180. 140 yes and the highest the PSI has been was 19 or 20.
 
  #45  
Old 12-15-13, 07:26 PM
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yes I followed your instructions close the return to the boiler below the red valve and close all other zones at yellow valves and keep the zone in questions yellow valve open. yes the pressures has not gone above 20 psi I have not had the boiler up to 180 degrees I have it set at 140 low and 150 High on the aquastat.
 
  #46  
Old 12-15-13, 07:33 PM
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[table="width: 700, class: grid, align: center"]
[tr]
[td]Problem[/td]
[td]Causes[/td]
[td]Remedy[/td]

[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Pump is switched on but fails to run[/td]
[td]Electrical defect / fuse is blown[/td]
[td]Check / replace the fuse
Should the fuse blow several times in a row:
- check the pump for electrical faults
- check the pump mains cable and electrical connection.
[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]Ground fault interrupter has triggered[/td]
[td]Switch ground fault interrupter back on.
Should the circuit-breaker trip several times in a row:
- Check the pump for electrical faults.
- Check the pump mains cable and electrical connection.[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]Capacitor defect [/td]
[td]Replace capacitor (observe name plate data)[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td][/td]
[td]Motor is blocked, e.g. by deposits from the heating water[/td]
[td]Check and if necessary rectify that the rotor shaft still rotates freely:
- Remove the vent plug,
- insert a flat head screwdriver into the slot end of the shaft and turn to ensure free rotation,
- replace the vent plug.
[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-15-13 at 08:11 PM.
  #47  
Old 12-15-13, 07:37 PM
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any idea what I should start with or where I should start?
 
  #48  
Old 12-15-13, 07:56 PM
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Yes, refer to the chart that I just posted. This is from the Wilo pump manual.

Pay no attention to the first three, only the last, that says MOTOR IS BLOCKED.

TURN OFF BOILER!

PLEASE wait until the boiler has cooled to 100F or less!

WARNING! RISK OF SEVERE SCALDING!
Depending on the fluid temperature and the system pressure, if the vent screw is
completely loosened hot liquid or vapour can escape or even shoot out at high
pressure.
The warning above should not be taken lightly! 150F water in the face can maim and even kill.

DE-PRESSURIZE THE BOILER AGAIN (sorry... have to do) and CLOSE THE VALVE ABOVE THE PUMP.

I THINK THERE IS ANOTHER VALVE BELOW THE PUMP AS WELL, IF SO, CLOSE THAT ONE ALSO.
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Last edited by NJT; 12-15-13 at 08:14 PM.
  #49  
Old 12-15-13, 08:16 PM
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By the way, the VENT PLUG is in the middle of the motor end of the pump...

I've gotta cut out for the night, will check back in the morning.
 
  #50  
Old 12-15-13, 08:52 PM
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to bad you gotta split you could have celebrated with me. You ever hear a WILO SPINNING WATER down pipes.....sweet sweet sound of gushy music and hot pipes too boot on the second floor The pump is churning away it's noiser then the Tacos. The zone is finally up. Siezed Motor. Siezed no more. I actually banged on it a couple time because intially it just lightly warmed the pipes and then I took the plastic end of my persuader screw driver heavy tool and gave a couple good raps and what do you know. Music. Thanks for all your Help Troop
I learned a lot following all your proto-calls. I feel a lot more comfortable around this oil drinker.

And yes tomorrow I would like to set the boiler pressure a few psi from the make-up valve. Also want your opinion on the aquastat setting I have it High 150 and low 140 what do you think?
Have a good night.

Thanks Oaks
 
  #51  
Old 12-16-13, 07:02 AM
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Hooray! a little early, but anyway... it will be noon in about 2 hours... (I don't wait for 5 o'clock anymore)

Once I realized it was a Wilo and not a Taco I pretty much had the revelation that the motor had seized from not being 'excercised'. I don't understand why the Wilo and Grundfos pumps seem to have this issue while I can't recall a Taco have this happen. The Grundfos also has the 'vent plug' at the motor end. Many of the new controls on the market have the option to set up for a 'pump excercise' every so many days of being off in order to prevent this 'sticking' issue with the motors. The controls will start the pump and run for like 30 seconds every few days.

more later...
 
  #52  
Old 12-16-13, 08:42 AM
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I would like to set the boiler pressure a few psi from the make-up valve
It's easy... the only thing that the below does not tell you is that in order to raise the pressure you must start with the system pressure BELOW the desired new setting. So, if the boiler is hot and the pressure has raised above the 12-13 you mentioned earlier, you will need to let a little water out to drop the pressure back down.

I don't expect that you will need to turn that adjusting screw more than 1 turn... go slowly and let the pressure stabilize for a few minutes before turning more... these valves react fairly slowly...


The Boiler Feed Valve is factory set to deliver water to
the boiler at 12 psi. To determine the required pressure
if the factory setting is not sufficient to lift the water to
the highest radiation, calculate the number of feet from
the regulator to the top of the highest radiation. Multiply
this by .43 and add 4 psi. This is the pressure needed
to raise the water to the highest radiation and keep it
under sufficient pressure. To increase the valve setting,
loosen the locking nut on the adjusting screw at the top
of the valve. Now turn the adjusting screw in (clockwise)
slowly until the gauge indicates the pressure calculated.
Then lock the adjusting screw with its locking
nut.
 
  #53  
Old 12-16-13, 09:27 AM
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Also want your opinion on the aquastat setting I have it High 150 and low 140 what do you think?
It's obvious from the pics that you are using the boiler for your domestic hot water source... and if 140 LOW gives you adequate domestic hot, then leave that where it is.

I would like to know the DIFF setting as well...

You have the HIGH at 150, which may or may not be a bit on the low side... at the very least it breaks the manufacturer's 'rule' of never setting the high and low less than 20 apart... the reason for that rule is because of circulator pump control reasons, but you don't have any pumps connected to the aquastat so it would seem a moot point.

Have you ever relied on the boiler to provide 100% of the heating to the home through the full winter? Was the HIGH set at 150 at that time? If so, was the home always a bit on the chilly side? seeming as if the boiler couldn't keep up with the cold?

If so, then 150 is too low...
 
  #54  
Old 12-16-13, 09:32 AM
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I feel that I should also caution again that you may not be done with the expansion tank problem.

Because of the fact that your tank is mounted upside down, the air you pump in will tend to stay inside the tank for a period of time EVEN IF THE BLADDER HAS A HOLE IN IT.

If you start to see weird pressure excursions in the next couple weeks, at that point, just replace the tank...

In other words, be prepared.

And check the pressure at LEAST every two years.
 
  #55  
Old 12-16-13, 02:52 PM
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Troop I adjusted the aquastat this spring to conserve oil and the hot water at the sink was brutally hot. The kids and wifie complained they were getting burnt it was rather hot. I don't remember what the gentlemen who owned the house before me had it set at. He put this system in. I used the boiler for heat for a two and half months and the oil bill was astronomical so I put in the pellet stove that fall and have not looked back. I am going to adjust the high end to 160 for a 20 degree spread you suggest.
 

Last edited by Oakey; 12-16-13 at 03:07 PM. Reason: grammer
  #56  
Old 12-16-13, 02:56 PM
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I will keep an eye on the pressure gauge if the pressure changes drastically oe becomes erratic I will know this tank is shot and requires replacing. I think when that day comes I will also set it up correctly air nipple down - not upside down.
 
  #57  
Old 12-16-13, 03:09 PM
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Hey Troop is the adjustment screw on top of the bell?
 
  #58  
Old 12-16-13, 03:19 PM
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I am going to adjust the high end to 160 for a 20 degree spread you suggest.
You are using the boiler for heating domestic water. 160 or even 140 deg is way too hot for that - very dangerous from a scalding perspective. You must install a blending/mixing valve that controls the hot water temp to something like 120 deg.

Besides scalding, which is bad enough, somebody in the shower could react/jump, fall and split their head open. Worst case, they knock themselves out, and the scalding water keeps pouring.

It's kind of like DIY electrical work: you can just get shocked or be injured when the shock causes you to fall off a ladder. Been there. At 120V, I might choose just a shock over falling off the ladder. Preferably, neither.

You have a major hazard here. Immediate attention is required.
 

Last edited by gilmorrie; 12-16-13 at 03:47 PM.
  #59  
Old 12-16-13, 03:26 PM
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The kids and wifie complained they were getting burnt it was rather hot
Consider installing, or having installed, a 'thermostatic tempering valve' on the outlet of the coil. This valve will act to deliver a consistent temperature (120F recommended setting) hot water to the home. It does this by mixing in some cool water as needed to reduce the maximum temperature delivered to the taps. (Taco brand shown, Honeywell is good too...)


Mixing Valves , Taco Mixing Valves , Watts Mixing Valves , Honeywell Mixing Valves - PexSupply.com

I would like to know the DIFF setting as well...

Slide cover off aquastat and let me know what it's set to.
The HIGH setting doesn't really control the domestic temperature per se, but if you run hot water when the boiler is in the middle of a heat call, the boiler will be HOTTER and as you have learned can be brutal and even send someone to the hospital...

MOST building codes REQUIRE tempering valves these days for that reason.

This would install on the piping just above the boiler.

These are made in both LEAD FREE for POTABLE use, and NOT lead free for heating only. Make sure to select the LEAD FREE variety!
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-16-13 at 04:06 PM.
  #60  
Old 12-16-13, 03:34 PM
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when that day comes I will also set it up correctly air nipple down - not upside down.
Also recommended between the tank and the system is a shut off valve and a way to drain the pressure from the tank when you close the shutoff. This makes checking and charging the tank a ten minute job because it eliminates all the boiler draining that you went through.

I would recommend this valve, one piece... install between tank and boiler. Tank can screw right into valve, only other thing needed is short pipe nipple to install valve on elbow.

To service tank, close shutoff, hose on drain to bucket, open drain, bleed pressure off tank and check/adjust air, close drain, reopen shut off. Simple!


40612 - Webstone 40612 - 1/2" Threaded Pro-Pal Ball Valve w/ Hose Drain

I'm probably repeating myself, but look again at the bottom of the expansion tank thread and you will see why you want this...

It's really not the end of the world that the tank is upside down. As long as the pressure is properly maintained in the tank it will still last a long time. The issue comes from the fact that air can get trapped on the water side of the tank and rust it from the inside out over time.

It doesn't look like there's any easy way to flip the tank over, so if you leave it like that, no big whoop I guess...

I suppose that you could extend the vertical pipe going up and place the tee to the tank higher up so you can come out and hang pipe. Leave the air vent on the top the way it is now. You can probably re-use much of whats there, just install a long enough nipple that you can hang rather than stand the tank on it's head.

Can't tell from the pics clearly, but it looks like this solution might put the electric box for the Wilo pump in the way of the vertical pipe going up. If it does, that motor can be pulled from the pump and rotated 180 to place the electric box on the same side as the Taco pumps. That should give you clearance to go up and hang the tank.
 
  #61  
Old 12-16-13, 03:48 PM
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After the holidays I will install one. Might need some assistance on proper location.
 
  #62  
Old 12-16-13, 03:53 PM
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Water make up valve is the nut ontop the adjustment?
 
  #63  
Old 12-16-13, 03:58 PM
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is the adjustment screw on top of the bell?
Yes it is.

Slightly loosen that locknut, turn the screw clockwise to raise to 15 PSI, snug up locknut... just 'snug', doesn't need to be gorilla tight!
 
  #64  
Old 12-16-13, 04:54 PM
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Troop I raised the boiler psi successfully. Thanks The pressure seems to be very consistent never going above 20 psi.

I have a question about the auto vent there is a adjustable cap how should I leave that?
 
  #65  
Old 12-16-13, 05:07 PM
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I have a question about the auto vent there is a adjustable cap how should I leave that?
That cap should be left loose about a turn or two in order that the captured air can escape.

If it leaks when the cap is loose, it needs to be replaced.

Yours may be the type that can be opened and cleaned but they are only about $10 or so, I would just replace.

This one is cheap enough to throw away when it f's up... and can't be cleaned anyway.

MO67 - Jacobus - Maid O Mist MO67 - #67, 1/8" Auto-Vent
 
  #66  
Old 12-16-13, 05:57 PM
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Thanks gave it turn it was snug now it's a little loose. No water leakage.
 
  #67  
Old 12-16-13, 06:05 PM
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Mixing valve

Troop where on my boiler would I put this device?
 
  #68  
Old 12-17-13, 08:03 AM
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You can see in the photo that those valves have three ports. There's a HOT, COLD, and MIXED port. On MOST of them, the 'bottom' of the tee shape is the MIX OUT, and each 'side' of the tee shape is HOT and COLD.

On your boiler, the COLD domestic goes in on the right side, and the HOT comes out on the left.

It would seem that the easiest place to install this would be at that 90 elbow where the hot pipe turns back over the boiler.

Imagine the valve on it's side with the adjustment knob pointing away from the boiler, and the valve in place of that elbow. Then imagine a tee fitting on the cold line, below the ball valve, and a cold pipe going over to the valve and elbow down and into valve.
 
  #69  
Old 12-22-13, 08:21 AM
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Troop I kinda get the set up you laid out and it make sense. However before I get started with this I got a question that just came to me. That blue tank to the left of the boiler is a hot water holding tank, it has an temperature setting so I believe it keeps the water hot. Will this defeat the purpose of the mixing valve or interfere with hot water temps? Or will it change the set up of mixing valve?

Thanks

Oakey
 
  #70  
Old 12-22-13, 08:56 AM
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That blue tank to the left of the boiler is a hot water holding tank
What blue tank? I just glanced back at the pics and saw no such tank.

It may be set up as an 'aqua booster'.

In order to answer the question, I would need to see the tank and all the piping associated with it.
 
  #71  
Old 12-28-13, 07:25 AM
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What Blue Tank

Sorry Troop thought I had a picture of the entire set up. That blue tank is a hot water holding tank. It electric and has a temp setting on it.
 
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  #72  
Old 12-28-13, 08:00 AM
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It electric
You mean it's a stand-alone electric water heater? And is NOT connected to the pipes that go into and out of the round plate on the front of the boiler?

I'm sorry Oaks, that picture is too small for me to see any details.

What is the make/model information on the water tank?
 
  #73  
Old 12-28-13, 12:21 PM
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Not Stand alone

Sorry, Troop yes it is connected via copper pipe to the front of the boiler. I will post some better pictures I am away from the house.
 
  #74  
Old 12-28-13, 01:35 PM
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By the way, the fact that you have a separate water tank changes the location that you would want to install that mixing valve.

When you get home, tell me what temperature the setting of the water tank control is at.

After seeing how the piping is run from the boiler to the water tank there will likely be some suggestions as to new settings.
 
  #75  
Old 12-28-13, 02:50 PM
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can't find a name on the tank for the company pres set temp is said to be 130 degrees however it is set to 140 degrees. There are two white circles with pipes entering that blue holding tank the lower comes from the boiler the upper is cold water.
 
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  #76  
Old 12-28-13, 03:41 PM
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There are two white circles with pipes entering that blue holding tank the lower comes from the boiler the upper is cold water.
There's also a third pipe coming out the top and going to the hot taps in the house, correct?

You do have what is called an "Aqua-Booster" tank there.

When the tank thermostat calls for heat, that brown pump should run (the tank thermostat actually controls the pump), and the water in the tank should circulate between the tank and the coil in the boiler.

This brings the tank up to the set temperature and the tank stores the hot water for your use.

set temp is said to be 130 degrees however it is set to 140 degrees
You can back that setting down to 120 until you can get a tempering valve installed.

Set the LOW on the boiler to 140 and DIFF to 20.

Set the HIGH on the boiler to 180.
 
  #77  
Old 12-29-13, 03:26 PM
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Set the temps as you posted.
 
  #78  
Old 12-29-13, 04:04 PM
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Let us know how that works for you. Should be OK...
 
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