Superstor contender 50 dhw piping?


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Old 12-20-13, 07:16 AM
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Superstor contender 50 dhw piping?

Hi all,

I think my dhw is piped incorrectly. My question is, where does the supply piping from the boiler pipe into the superstor? The spot that says "boiler in" or " boiler out"? Right now it is piped into the "boiler in" and according that is where the boiler return should go?

If it is wrong, how does that affect the recovery of hot water?

Thanks in advance
 
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Old 12-20-13, 07:30 AM
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Boiler supply or out from the boiler into boiler supply (in) on the superstor.
Boiler return on the superstor (out) is return back into the boiler.
 
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Old 12-20-13, 08:12 AM
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I wish they would stop using those ambiguous terms. Why can't they say "SUPPLY FROM BOILER" and "RETURN TO BOILER" ? or anything else that is not open for misunderstanding.

HOT water from boiler goes to the TOP port, return to boiler goes to BOTTOM port.

If it is wrong, how does that affect the recovery of hot water?
I would think it might slow recovery a tad...

Are you having a problem with recovery time?
 
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Old 12-20-13, 08:14 AM
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The drawing doesn't show which one is labeled 'boiler in' or 'boiler out'

Which is which?
 
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Old 12-20-13, 10:00 AM
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I hear you there. The bottom by the looks of the manual states boiler return. So i assume that the top is the supply. However, the supply piping from the boiler, goes to the bottom of the ihw heater and not the top.

I have a triangle tube pt110 solo and a taco 007 circulator to the ihw heater. I think the recovery times are too long. The temp for the ihw is at 140 and when just one shower is taken, the temp in the tank drops below 100 and doesn't seem to recover fast enough.
 
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Old 12-20-13, 10:40 AM
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The top port is the boiler out and the bottom port is the boiler in. Mine is definitely piped backwards.

The question is, does it matter which way the boiler flows? Top to bottom or bottom to top?. My installer piped it this way....not sure why?
 
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Old 12-20-13, 10:51 AM
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I looked at the specs from suporstore. The want the circ. on the supply side also. If it's piped wrong then that's probably wrong too. I don't know how much difference it makes but they require things for a reason.

If you have the manual, you might want to take a look at it. I don't remember the page but as far as the warranty goes it says in essence. If installed different from there directions, warranty is void.

You've peaked my curiosity and I've got a call in to Superstore. When I get the answer I'll let you know.
 
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Old 12-20-13, 01:32 PM
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W,
According to the tech @ Superstore(HTP) the SUPPLY from the boiler goes in the top and the RETURN(bottom tapping) goes back to the boiler.

I explained the labels and he didn't have an explanation except to say they must have been mislabled.

SUPPLY FROM BOILER=TOP TAPPING ON TANK
RETURN TO BOILER = BOTTOM TAPPING ON TANK.

This was his instruction, no matter what the labels say.
 
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Old 12-20-13, 02:09 PM
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So other than voiding warranty, wonder what the diifference is? My circulator is on the supply pipe from the boiler so that isn't the problem. But it goes into the bottom tapping. If this causes a major increase in recovery time, I will change it in a heart beat. But if it doesn't would it hurt to keep it the way it is?
 
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Old 12-20-13, 02:55 PM
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The top port is the boiler out and the bottom port is the boiler in.
This is where I believe the labeling is extremely ambiguous.

The top port labeled 'BOILER OUT' could mean EITHER " FROM BOILER OUT " or " OUT TO BOILER " and vice versa for the bottom port.

I've been thinking about the recovery... what happens if it's reversed...

Putting the hottest incoming boiler water at the TOP of the coil would heat water that's ALREADY A BIT WARMER than the water at the bottom of the tank because of the stratification that occurs in ANY water heater.

Even with my electric heater and thermostats satisfied at 140, if I open the drain at the bottom, I get LUKEWARM water, while drawing from the top on the washing machine outlet ahead of the mixing valve, I get 140 water. So that stratification is REAL.

Another example with electric... there are two elements... the TOP element 'kicks in' to heat the tank from the TOP DOWN when starting from a cold tank, or when a LOT of hot water is drawn and the tank goes into recovery mode.

Putting the HOTTEST water in at the BOTTOM of your tank, MOST of the water in the tank would need to be heated before any was available for use.

By putting the HOTTEST water in at the TOP of the coil, in effect the water nearer the top of the tank where you draw the hot water from is getting heated FASTER and available SOONER for use.

I see the logic in putting the hottest water into the top of the coil, I just don't know how much difference it will make in reality. I'm sure some, and maybe it will be a drastic difference... just don't know... not smart enough in Thermodynamics...

BOTTOM LINE: Have it reversed. If it's not to manufacturer spec, then it's just wrong, no matter what.
 
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Old 12-20-13, 04:14 PM
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Thanks for the help everyone. I guess I will add that to my to do list. Have a very Merry Christmas.
 
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Old 01-25-14, 07:15 AM
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Have the parts coming to change the piping

I also am going to pipe it to one inch like the manual states. Mine is 3/4 right now. Plus the taco 007 is too small so iam going to with a grunfos 15-58 on speed 3 to see if that helps recovery. Will let you know how things go. Right now it takes 5 minutes to raise the temp from 136 to 138. That is with 190 supply and 168 return.
 
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Old 01-25-14, 08:11 AM
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the taco 007 is too small so iam going to with a grunfos 15-58 on speed 3
I think that's a waste of money. The 007 is FINE for that application. What makes you think it's not?

You can change the pump anytime. Try it first with the 007 and reverse the flow to the heater and see how that goes.
 
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Old 01-26-14, 04:19 PM
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The 007 works but

I need to move 8gpm at 12'ft of head and the 007 is not providing it at least according to the pump chart. It works but the 3/4 piping is not helping either. The 15-58 will give me the 8gpm I need.
 
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Old 01-26-14, 04:31 PM
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Where are you getting the 12' of head figure from?

I recommend reading a few of the other threads, the one about John's Greenhouse is a good one

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/bo...more-heat.html

Pay particular attention to post #7 in that thread.

You can NOT just go across and down to arrive at a flow or head. There's TWO MOVING TARGETS that you have to hit. The pump curve is ONE of those targets, the SYSTEM CURVE is the OTHER.
 

Last edited by NJT; 01-26-14 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 01-26-14, 04:47 PM
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It may have been asked.....


Is your boiler piped with close spaced tees?

Zone valves?

Do you have the indirect set for priority?
 
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Old 01-26-14, 04:55 PM
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Here the indirect comes off a 3rd port from the boiler for the supply to the indirect... ( Boiler is 86K btu)


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IMO even if piped backwards you should still not notice and have fast recovery...





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Old 01-26-14, 04:58 PM
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I fear it may be boiler piping issue......... Can you take pics? Or verify how the indirect is actually piped?
 
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Old 01-26-14, 05:22 PM
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Not sure where yer goin' with this Mike, but the indirect is definitely piped backward. It's already been verified that it's backwards.
 
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Old 01-26-14, 05:46 PM
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The indirect is

Piped from the separate dhw tapping on the tt 110. It is piped backwards for sure, supply to bottom port and return to top port.

I get the 12 feet from pressure drop in boiler and the indirect and about 20 feet of pipe and fittings.

My gas bill hasn't gone down much from a 150,000 btu smith gas boiler to this new TT 110. It was installed in May of 2013 and has 6700DHW ignitions( avg 28 times a day) and 776 hrs run time.( avg 3 hrs a day) 2 adults, 2 kids. That is about 2-4 showers a day, dishwater every 2 days, laundry every day or 2. This winter (oct to jan aprox 4 months) the boiler CH has run for 1000 hrs or a bout 8 hrs a day. If that was at full fire that would be less than 8 gallons a day to heat a 3600 sq ft home. Last month dec 15-jan 16) I used 9.4 gallons a day 1500 hdd but I also have dryer and cooking included. According to my math, almost 3 gallons a day for hot water.

I can watch the temp of the hwh on the boiler control screen. How fast should the temp go up from let's say 90 degrees with the boiler at full fire? The heat is going somewhere, I am getting a 30 degree delta t. But to me, if I have 185 degree water going in and 155 coming back, that 90 degree water should rise pretty fast? Remember, the supply is going to the coil at the bottom of the tank first and returning from the top of the coil. Is the cool water at the bottom of the tank absorbing the btus before getting to the top to heat the hotter water that is leaving? Is this slowing the recovery?
 

Last edited by Wrxz24; 01-26-14 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 01-27-14, 10:34 PM
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I would be more concerned about your domestic tappings being reversed on your IDWH than the boiler tappings. I have seen some indirects where the tapping is one way for Europe and another way in North America. With the boiler water tappings reversed you're going to have "somewhat" less stratification and likewise, "somewhat" more overall heat contained and available for domestic use.

That said, with a condensing boiler you really do need to be keen on always minimizing return temps to aid condensing and for that reason it should be returned to the boiler from the bottom. If you haven't already done so, I would install a mixing valve on the domestic side lower than 140... and say it is 125, then I would set the MCBA so that it kicks in around then, especially if you're using full rpm for DHW.

Are you sure that water isn't moving into the heating circuits on a domestic call?

You talk about your gas bill not being much better with the new TT. Is it normally condensing? On the domestic side it should be condensing until it gets to the later stages of DHW call. For heating, you want to be condensing all the time... and if you're near the line, it is worth efforts to do what it takes to get into the condensing range as much as you can.
 
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Old 01-28-14, 04:43 AM
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Since heat travels to cold and the greater the difference the faster it travels, there for the hottest water from boiler goes to the top of the coil and as the boiler water travels down the coil and cools it meets cooler domestic water and the greatest difference in temperature is maintained between them and thus a faster domestic water recovery.
 
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Old 01-28-14, 04:48 AM
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Not sure where yer goin' with this Mike,
Just would like to see pics... There may be more to the story......IMO the IDHW heater being reversed should not affect it all that much....
 
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Old 01-28-14, 05:38 AM
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IMO the IDHW heater being reversed should not affect it all that much....
Understand, but bottom line is that if it's backwards per manufacturer spec, it needs to be corrected first.

If it IS wrong at the boiler, then of course the time to make those corrections is when the other work is being done, so I see your point in bringing up the 'big picture'.
 
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Old 01-28-14, 08:17 AM
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Here is a drawing. I am not home right now.

I have check valves on both domestic return and idhw return. I have check valves on all heating supply lines and ihw supply. I do get a hot primary supply pipe during a domestic call though and it does heat up the secondary returns as the heat travels up the primary supply line and gets into the secondary loop and bypasses the closely spaced tees. Wonder if i should get a check valve for the inbolier grunfos pump?
The hot pipe for potable water is correct according to the little white donut that says hot on it. The cold is piped into the cold.

To answer about condensing. I get it when my inslab zones are calling and do get it when baseboard is calling depending on the outside temps/outdoor reset.

One of the problems I have when it gets real cold, well below zero when all zones are calling, the boiler can never get to its outdoor reset setpoint. I have tries all 3 speeds but to no avail. I have it currently have the setting on speed 2.
 
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Old 01-28-14, 09:34 AM
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I have check valves on all heating supply lines and ihw supply.
Dunb question...what way it the flow on the check valve by the close space tees?

Where is the other circ placed?

Also looks like you have no loop for the section where the emitters tie in...


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Old 01-28-14, 11:26 AM
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the check valve will allow water to go back to the boiler

each zone has it's own taco 007 pump and no zone valves. I just didn't put them in the drawing.

the water from the system flows through the check valve and then back to the boiler just like the diagram you posted.
 
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Old 01-28-14, 01:10 PM
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Yes loop not needed with circs..

I assume you have Indirect set as priority?

Mine is 3/4 right now
3/4 to the indirect?

How about coming from the boiler supply and return to the tees??

Last how are you controlling the circulators? Do you have the indirct circ connected to the 110 DHW terminals?

Last was the internal circ of the 110 was hooked up properly? Say its pre wire but elswhere it says its not...

http://s3.pexsupply.com/product_file...riMax-User.pdf
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 01-28-14 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 01-28-14, 02:42 PM
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The inbolier pump is pre wired to the system pump terminal on the trimax.

The boiler itself has 1 1/4 inch manifold reduced to 1 inch supply and return near boiler piping.

The indirect has 3/4 piping.

The baseboard circulator is wired to the ch1 terminal and the inslab zones are on a taco relay wired on the low volt ch2 tstat low temp heating curve to take advantage of operating at lower temps when just the slab zones are calling.
 
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Old 01-28-14, 02:48 PM
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where is the indirect circ hooked to?
Where is the internal boiler circ hooked to?
 
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Old 01-28-14, 02:55 PM
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Indirect is hooked

To the dhw terminal and the boiler pump to the ch2/system pump terminal.

Nothing is hooked to the auxillary terminal on the trimax.
 
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Old 01-28-14, 03:57 PM
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And the indirect is set for prority over a call for heat I assume...???
 
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Old 01-28-14, 04:04 PM
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Yeah, set up for 35 minute priority.
 
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Old 01-28-14, 04:06 PM
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So what I see is CH1 is supposed to be the internal circ...

The taco relay leads go to where in the tri max? Should go to CH1 t stat in the tri max...
 
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Old 01-28-14, 04:22 PM
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The ch1 on the trimax is for high temp and the circulators on the relay are the low temp inslab circs.

That is why i have the baseboard circ in the ch 1 terminal. And the relay lead goes to the low volt ch2 tstat terminal.

According to the manual, the inboiler pump is pre wired. Why must the iboiler pump be on ch1?
 
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Old 01-28-14, 04:29 PM
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ccording to the manual, the inboiler pump is pre wired. Why must the iboiler pump be on ch1?

I read it was pre wired to CH1, but elsewhere I saw it had to be wired there..

But I did read something on the low temp but thought mixing valves were installed..

You may be right... Heck I am just reading and making sure all ducks are in a row... Im not convinced the backwards indirect piping is your issue...

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And after all look how they show the indirect piping here...


 
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Old 01-28-14, 04:37 PM
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Is this grn circ on the return? Whats that doing?


 
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Old 01-28-14, 04:41 PM
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I do have mix valves on the slab zones because when there is a ch 1 and ch2 call at the same time, the boiler heats the water at the higher temp setting on the heating curve.

If i wire the boiler pump to ch 1, where do I wire the bb pump to?
 
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Old 01-28-14, 04:47 PM
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that circulator is the baseboard pump

and it is on the return. I know it is recommended that you pump away from the expansion tank but this zone is leftover from the cast iron boiler replacement piping.
 
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Old 01-28-14, 04:50 PM
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What are the 4 other returns next to that grn circ? Are there circs for those?
 
 

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