Trinity Ti 150 Not providing enough heat. Please help!!

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Old 12-24-13, 04:58 PM
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Trinity Ti 150 Not providing enough heat. Please help!!

Hello Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I really need some help from all the experts here.

I had a new NTI Trinity Ti 150 installed in the summer on a 5 small units apartment building with a total 3700 sqft. This broiler unit is setup to provide heat and hot water. Winter comes and my tenants are complaining there is not enough heat for all the apartments. I called my contractor about this heat issue and they came and check and do some adjustment and said the apartments lost lots of heat because there is not enough insulation in the ceiling and the ceiling is too high at 12 ft. At that time the contractor never mentioned about this and bring this issue to my attention. They just installed the Ti 150 unit even they know what the building and ceiling is like. Right now the contractor is blaming on me as my own problem and they can't do anything about this issue. My concern is how do I know if the contractor didn't put up the proper size broiler unit at the beginning and just pushing responsibility to me to save their cost? In this case is there any thing that I can do to check about the this broiler unit is big enough to support the apartments and hot water supply. Second concern is there are any adjustment or setup to the unit to increase the heating capacity to supply more heat to all the units. Third concern is what are my options of dealing with contractor like this in this situation?

Any hints or help would be very appreciated. Looking for all your inputs.

Thank you,

Richard
 
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Old 12-24-13, 05:40 PM
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Hi Richard,

Sorry you are having problems with your new boiler.

Let's start with some photos of the installation. Try to take clear, in focus, well lighted photos of the entire boiler installation.

What kind of heat emitters are in the building? Are they cast iron radiators? Fin tube baseboard? Please describe.

How are the temperatures in the apartments being controlled? Does each apartment have a thermostat?

What was previously installed for heating, and was there any trouble with it?

Why did you replace the boiler?
 
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Old 12-24-13, 08:14 PM
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Do they have the outdoor reset curve setup ?
The Ti Sentry control really sucks for trying to setup the right curve.
Made by an engineer that it made perfect sense to, and to him only.

If the outdoor reset curve is not right you will not send hot enough water out to the system. With out hot enough water, you will not satisfy the heat loss.

If the boiler that was taken out was bigger, and you knew it was bigger and still let them put in a smaller boiler with out showing you the numbers to prove that the smaller boiler would suffice, then you may have to take some of the blame.

Chances are you will not get any restitution from the contractor, as there is nothing to hold them to there work.

150,000 BTU input at 88% eff. is about 132,000 BTU of useable energy. This works out to over 35 BTU/Sq.ft. So, where do you live ?
What is the building like ?

Adding insulation to the attic is not a bad thing, and if this helps reduce the building load then you will reap the benefits from that. It's not that expensive and since you likely pay for heat it's money well spent.
 
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Old 12-25-13, 09:01 AM
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Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Everyone!! Thank you all for taking your holiday time to reply to my heating issues. I'll definitely going to try all the possible ways to resolved this heat problem. I really appreciated for all your help!!

Due to the fact I don't know much about this heating system, but I'll do my very best to provide you all the answers.

- There are a outdoor senor installed at the direction of south west side of the building. I'll give it a try to change the numbers of the Boiler Set Point (HI) and Outdoor Reset (RES) values and see if it will help. Is there a way to check the actual Operating Temperature (water temperature) at the broiler unit to see if already max out the settings?

- The apartment was was build new, so there is not a heat system used before. The broiler unit system was recommend by the contractor to provide the heat and all water (cold and hot) to all the units.

-I lived in Niagara Falls, Canada. Today (Christmas day) the temperature is 4F. So the weather here is extremely cold.

-The building has 2 floors. The main floor has a restaurant with it's only heat and hot water unit. The 2nd floor is where are the 5 apartments with the Broiler unit to provide heat and hot water. The total size of all the apartments on the 2nd floor is around 3700 sqft. The flat roof is build with tar and gravel on top of the metal membrane. Below the metal membrane (apartment ceiling) there is little is no extra insulation. The building wall is build of blocks without dry walls. Between the all apartments are double 5/8 dry walls with insulation.

-As for the ceiling insulation, will the spray type ceiling insulation I see from many supermarkets will be enough?

-The heat emitters are the fin tube with out any electrical fans.

-The temperature was controlled by the thermostat and the Outdoor sensor. I disconnected the thermostat out since the temperature setting on
the unit seems no used or provide any effect the actual temperature. Am I doing something wrong here? Please let me know.

-The broiler unit is brand new. The 2nd floor was empty before and without any heat.

Thanks for all the reply.

Richard
 
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Old 12-25-13, 12:37 PM
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Richard, I'm still unclear about the complete setup...

Are you saying that there is ONLY ONE THERMOSTAT for the 5 apartments? That each tenant does NOT have control of the individual heat in their apartment? Where is the thermostat located?

Can you show us photographs of the installation? This would help us give advice.

I believe that you are telling us that the contractor did NOT perform a heat loss analysis on the building before selecting and installing the boiler system. Is that correct?

- The apartment was was build new, so there is not a heat system used before. The broiler unit system was recommend by the contractor to provide the heat and all water (cold and hot) to all the units.
This contractor is the one that SPECIFIED the system to be installed? They were not told by architect or other persons what was to be installed? If this is true, then it would seem to me that it is THEIR responsibility to select and install a system that would do what it is supposed to do - that is, heat the building properly.

Who installed the baseboards in the apartments? Was this the same contractor that installed the boiler system?

Can you tell us how many feet in total the measurements of the fin tube baseboard are installed?

Have the tenants also been complaining that there is not enough domestic hot water supply for their needs?

If you can look at the manual and understand how to access the settings that the boiler is currently using, you may report them here and perhaps we can determine if they are correct settings.

I did read in the manual that if the OUTDOOR SENSOR is DISCONNECTED that the boiler will operate in the 'conventional' mode. You may wish to try this to see if the boiler will properly heat the apartments without the 'reset' circuit in operation.
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-25-13 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 12-25-13, 12:39 PM
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-As for the ceiling insulation, will the spray type ceiling insulation I see from many supermarkets will be enough?
Can you show us an internet link to the product you are speaking about?
 
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Old 12-25-13, 04:21 PM
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Trinity Ti Not providing

I see were you say the out door sensor is on the south west , and it should be on the north side , out of the sun and away from any heat source and above the snow line so it can read the actual air temperature or it will select the wrong heat curve.
 
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Old 12-25-13, 08:01 PM
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For now remove the outdoor sensor.

Was there a building permit issued ?

It does not sound like the building meets the min. standards as set by the ontario building code.
Perhaps the upstairs was going to be storage on the plans and therefore its deemed commercial ?
In Ontario anyone designing a structure, or system inside the structure must have a BCIN number and carry errors and ommisions insurance.

If this is indeed a new structure that you had built, you may have some legal recourse.

A space with out any insulation on the walls or roof is goign to be expensive and hard to heat. This does not sound like things make sense.
 
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Old 12-25-13, 11:38 PM
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Thank you all for reply me. I'll tried to provide all the answers for everyone.

- There was a building permit issued before the new 5 apartments are build. All inspections from the city are passed. There is occupancy permits for all the apartments. Originally, my mechanical engineer plan was to used one broiler unit for each of the apartment with it's own thermostat. Due to the cost the contractor quoted and recommendation, I went with the 1 large broiler unit with 1 central thermostat for all 5 apartments. The thermostat is located on the hall way behind the wall from the broiler unit room.

- Sorry I'm away from town now so I can't provide any photographs of the installation. Once I'm returned this Friday I'll attached some pictures.

- The contractor didn't perform a heat loss analysis. He did some kind of heating calculation. The contractor suggested to my engineer to use this system for the heating and water system.

- The same contractor installed the baseboards, broiler unit and all the plumbing, venting, and gas for the broiler unit.

- I would need to visit the building to provide the fin tube measurements and settings once I returned back to my home town.

- No one had complain about lack of hot water yet.a

I hope these answers will clarified the situation.

Richard
 
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Old 12-26-13, 12:45 AM
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Why do you write broiler instead of boiler? Trying to heat five different apartments with a central thermostat in a hallway is insane. Why didn't the mechanical contractor install zone valves and individual thermostats? The cost factor would have been minimal concerning the added comfort and overall cost ot the project.
 
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Old 12-26-13, 05:40 AM
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I would not be so concerned with only one stat in the hall, it is rental after all.
Sounds like they are not that big of apartments anyways.

If the system is designed right the ODR should provide the correct heat output and if the rads are balanced right then all should be good. Big IF right :-)

Perhaps all that is wrong is the reset curve is messed up, I would bet sending 180 water to the rads would overcome the heat loss. If there is building permits and engineers involved, then I have to bet that the insulation is up to code.
At least I would hope so.
 
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Old 12-26-13, 07:12 AM
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If there is building permits and engineers involved, then I have to bet that the insulation is up to code.
I would like to think so myself. Unless there is nepotism, greed, and corruption involved... where DOESN'T that occur to some extent?

I think that you have legal recourse... you just need to find out how to go about obtaining it. Consult with an attorney for advice.
 
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Old 12-26-13, 11:40 AM
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When you only have a 150,000 BTU boiler (not saying its sized right, I cant make that determination from my keyboard) and it's time is divided between trying to heat the domestic hot water (5 bathrooms, kitchens, plus) and heat the apartments there is bound to be problems.

If all are using hot water, it could be out of heating mode or not have the heating BTU capacity potentially for hours.

We don't know if its a combi system or has a indirect tank (I don't remember reading) but more than 2 apartments for this type of setup I would always recommend against.
 
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Old 12-27-13, 11:23 PM
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Hello everyone, I had attached two pictures. One is the boiler unit and another one is the hot water tank. I hope this will help to see what might be wrong with the setup.

Below is the old settings and the new settings I changed today. I believe there is a little improvement but it's still not enough heat.

Old New
Lo 160 180
Hi 180 195
Dif 15 10
RES 70 105
SFS 85 same
HFS 240 same
LFS 50 same
ER5 On same
FRE On same

When the boiler unit runs, the burner and Circ. Aux green light are on at the Sentry display. The maximum water temperature stops at 152F, Air is at 29F, Gas Input Value and DHW Temp is at 240F maxed. The unit only runs for about 5 minutes and stops with water temperature showing 128F, Air at 29F, 0 for Gas Input Value and DHW Temp right after the burner display green lights are off. Why would the water temperature changes so quick?
So with this be normal outcome or is there another way to make the water temperature higher than 152F while using the outdoor sensor mode?

Another way is how to make the boiler to run at conventional mode to increase the water temperature to be higher than 152F?

As for the size of the fin tube. Every apartment has a 8 feet fin tube in the living/ kitchen area. A 3 feet fin tube in the washroom and a 5 feet fin tube in the bedroom. The apartment size is around 700 sq/ft. The ceiling is at 12 ft height.

Any ideas? Please help!!

Thanks,

Richard
 
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Old 12-28-13, 08:45 AM
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As for the size of the fin tube. Every apartment has a 8 feet fin tube in the living/ kitchen area. A 3 feet fin tube in the washroom and a 5 feet fin tube in the bedroom. The apartment size is around 700 sq/ft. The ceiling is at 12 ft height.
So a total of SIXTEEN FEET of fin-tube baseboard. Presuming this to be standard output baseboard you have at best about 9600 BTUH of heat emitter installed in each apartment IF the water were 180, and it is NOT, so you do not have even 9600 BTUH of output available at the lower temperature you are seeing.

A 700 square foot area which is reasonably well constructed and insulated will require AT LEAST 17,000 BTUH of heat emitter installed in order to keep the area at temperature.

You have stated that the building does not have adequate insulation. If that is true, then the heat loss will be HIGHER than 17,000 BTUH, perhaps as high as 28,000 BTUH...

Unless the baseboard that was installed is a HIGH OUTPUT style which is capable of providing OVER 1000 BTUH of heat at the water temperature you are seeing, there is no way that the apartments will be warmed.

You are fighting a losing battle by trying to 'fiddle' with the boiler settings.

If you can't move enough heat from the water into the living space, you can not win the fight with the boiler.

Another way is how to make the boiler to run at conventional mode to increase the water temperature to be higher than 152F?
We've already told you that, several times... DISCONNECT THE WIRES FROM THE OUTDOOR SENSOR AND POWER CYCLE (REBOOT) THE BOILER.

But this will not help at all if you do not have enough baseboard installed in the apartments.

If the baseboard that is installed in the apartments is the STANDARD OUTPUT type, EACH apartment will require AT LEAST 32 FEET of baseboard. This is TWICE what you are saying is installed.

I'm not even going to go into the pictures of the boiler...
 
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Old 01-08-14, 04:58 AM
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One thing you have to keep in mind with the TI150 is that, when configured to supply heat and hot water, hot water demand takes precedence, turning off the heating operation. Every time someone turns on the hot water, you're losing heat. With five apartments, those calls for hot water probably come pretty often, and may be enough to disrupt heating. For the sort of setup you've described, I think the TI150 probably has enough heat output, but that you should have a boiler dedicated to heating, and another for hot water.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 06:46 AM
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Trinity Ti Not providing

I see that in thread 9 you state the thermostat is in the wall of the boiler room, if this is true the heat in the boiler room may be shutting the heat demand off.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 10:32 AM
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This is all well and good guys, speculate to your heart's content, but the bottom line is that if there is not enough baseboard (indeed about HALF of what is required) then there is nothing else that can be done at the boiler in any way to correct this problem.

There could be a NUKE plant in the basement and he still couldn't heat the apartments with 180 hot water.
 
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Old 01-09-14, 07:37 PM
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Trinity Ti Not providing

Since there is no more discussion on not enough heat can I assume the thermostat in the wall was the problem.
 
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Old 01-09-14, 07:51 PM
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can I assume the thermostat in the wall was the problem.
No, of course not, why would you assume that? Richard simply gave up and hasn't returned since his last post.
 
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Old 01-09-14, 08:07 PM
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Trinity Ti Not providing

Just wondering , and interested in what the solution to his problem would be.
 
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Old 01-09-14, 08:11 PM
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16 feet of BB might not be so bad for the interior units, perhaps only 2 exposed walls. But it will not cut it when you get to the corner units.

Venting needs to be SYSTEM 636 here in ontario, and the code for boilers running over 140 calls for CPVC.

This is a red tag issue and anyone with a gas ticket going in there should be issuing one.
 
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