Navien System

Reply

  #1  
Old 12-28-13, 11:14 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 178
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Navien System

I am starting to do my research on the type of gas boiler system that I am going to purchase. I am going to be converting from a peerless wbv-03 boiler with hydronic baseboard to a gas boiler system. I already have the gas line where the new boiler is going to be installed. My domestic hot water comes from the peerless.

I came across the Navien CH series condensing boilers and I was just curious if anyone recommends them. I havent been a fan of the domestic hot water from the peerless because it literally takes anywhere from 30-45 seconds to get hot water. Does anybody know if the Navien systems domestic hot water is more near instant and provides a good amount of hot water?

Also, my current boiler MBH is around 75KBTU. I see that the Navien CH comes in 150k BTU Max input as the lowest model. Would this be too much for my current system.

Any tips or recommendations on a gas boiler system would be helpful.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 12-28-13, 11:38 AM
NJT's Avatar
NJT
NJT is offline
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 23,539
Received 2 Votes on 2 Posts
curious if anyone recommends them
I don't..........................................
 
  #3  
Old 12-28-13, 12:38 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,809
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
Does anybody know if the Navien systems domestic hot water is more near instant and provides a good amount of hot water?
It will take the same time. if not longer for the hot water to get to the faucets...

Also, my current boiler MBH is around 75KBTU. I see that the Navien CH comes in 150k BTU Max input as the lowest model. Would this be too much for my current system.
Oversized in my opinion... Your old boiler is most likely over sized..

Need to do a heat loss calc of the home... Read the sticky's regarding this at the top of this forum..

How many sq ft is the home?

I was just curious if anyone recommends them.
Nope...... better choices are out there...

What type of heat emmitters in the home?..
 
  #4  
Old 12-28-13, 02:41 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 178
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Thanks for your input! I have hydronic baseboard heat and my house is about 1800sq/ft. Also, I was looking at the Buderus Logomax but it is really expensive, any thoughts on that?
 
  #5  
Old 12-28-13, 04:50 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,809
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
Your looking at about 45k btu heat loss. You need to do a heat loss calc to be accurate...

Burderus are nice... Need to check sizing but they are $$$$.. The smallest they have is max 84k btu... Low 22k btu... I say too big IMO and would be a waste but they dont make them much smaller... You'd have to shop around...

Like the peerless here// 50k btu..

Peerless® PUREFIRE®

Cast iron baseboard or copper finned?

How many ft of element only do you have? If your over radiated then a mod con makes sense...

You may want to go conventional and save some $$$$. You will never get payback with a mod con IMO...There has been lots of discussion on this...

I like the slantfins myself ..controls are...( Hydrolevel...)

You would be safe with an s 60..

http://www.slantfin.com/images/stori...entry_s_10.pdf

Sentry


And holy cow if this price is right!!!!!!...I would drive down delaware and get it...About $700 cheaper anywhere I found...

Note: Boiler prices have went up since hurricane sandy....

SlantFin S-60EDP - Sentry S-60 - 60,000 BTU Output Cast Iron Boiler, Intermittent Pilot Ignition - Natural Gas
\


All my opinion of course.............
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 12-28-13 at 09:08 PM.
  #6  
Old 12-28-13, 08:33 PM
rbeck's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,450
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
The us boiler esc3 is 52k and sidewall vented with fresh air piped to outside so overall operating efficiency is higher than a chimney vented boiler. Also optional OD reset plug in card.
 
  #7  
Old 12-28-13, 10:30 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 178
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I have copper fin baseboard

The downstairs have about 70ft of baseboard and the upstairs has about 28-30 ft of baseboard

I have a really small space where the current boiler is, about 7x5 room. Preferably I woul would to mount the new system on the wall. I'm probably going to have to go with a water tank so I will need room to fit it.

Also, is it better to just stick with a regular cast iron system than getting something with a lot of electronics like the buderuus logomax? A lot of people say simpler is better... What are everyone's thoughts?
 
  #8  
Old 12-28-13, 11:09 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,809
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
Also, is it better to just stick with a regular cast iron system than getting something with a lot of electronics like the buderuus logomax? A lot of people say simpler is better... What are everyone's thoughts?

Thats my thoughts... When something fails with a mod con parts are $$$....Plus there is a yearly maintenance that needs to be done...

Also dont know your water quality but some have aluminum heat exchangers and the longevity is not there IMO...

Now the es2 3 burnham as rbeck stated are priced similar.. and you can add ODR... Supposed to accept as low as 110F water on the return...Close as you will get to a cast iron boiler that acts as a mod con...

The slant fin boiler have the hydrostat controls that target the t stat... The boilers temp goes as low as 140f and stays there until it realizes the home is not getting warmer... Then it will boost the temp up 10F and will continue this until the t stat gets satisfied..

This saves fuel..

Both designs are put together with push nipples that hold the sections together... Better IMO the the seals others use..

Your looking at about $1800 for the cast boiler alone... Probably double for the mod cons..

How many baths? Whats your hot water use? An indirect is an option too...

What the chimney like?

But best is to size correctly..

Did you see the heat loss calculator in the stickys at the top of this forumn?
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 12-28-13 at 11:37 PM.
  #9  
Old 12-29-13, 06:14 AM
rbeck's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,450
Received 1 Vote on 1 Post
For chimney vent look at the US Boiler ES2 or Series 3, all the same as the ESC except chimney vented. My opinion on mod/con vs cast iron can be viewed here.

Comfort Calc
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-29-13 at 09:43 AM.
  #10  
Old 12-29-13, 07:33 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 178
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Now the es2 3 burnham as rbeck stated are priced similar.. and you can add ODR... Supposed to accept as low as 110F water on the return...Close as you will get to a cast iron boiler that acts as a mod con...

The slant fin boiler have the hydrostat controls that target the t stat... The boilers temp goes as low as 140f and stays there until it realizes the home is not getting warmer... Then it will boost the temp up 10F and will continue this until the t stat gets satisfied..

This saves fuel..

Both designs are put together with push nipples that hold the sections together... Better IMO the the seals others use..

Your looking at about $1800 for the cast boiler alone... Probably double for the mod cons..

I have city water not well water... I have been looking at the Burnham ES2 model burners and thats what National Grid offers for their rebate program. I am not going to be able to get the rebate since I am not going through a licensed plumber. I will be doing the conversion with a family friend that is a retired plumber.[/QUOTE]

How many baths? Whats your hot water use? An indirect is an option too...
My house has 4 bedrooms, 2 baths, and an all open Kitchen, Living Room and Dining Room. I dont think I would be able to fit an indirect water tank in the small space. I never measured the space, I am pretty sure its probable even smaller than 7x5, it might be 5x4.

What the chimney like?
My chimney is just a stainless steel chimney going straight up to the roof.

But best is to size correctly..

Did you see the heat loss calculator in the stickys at the top of this forumn?
I did and have looked at it a bunch of times. I will definitely do this prior to purchasing the boiler.

All in all, I am looking for a reliable boiler with good efficiency, something that takes up little space since I have very little room to put it and something that is cost effective.

How does the Slant Fin boilers compare to the Burnham ES2?
 
  #11  
Old 12-29-13, 07:45 AM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,809
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
How does the Slant Fin boilers compare to the Burnham ES2?
What are you really looking for?


  • price
  • size(to fit in small space)
  • efficiency
  • atmospheric or induced draft or sealed combustion
 
  #12  
Old 12-29-13, 07:50 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 178
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
What are you really looking for?

price
size(to fit in small space)
efficiency
atmospheric or induced draft or sealed combustion
Yes

Price
Size
Efficiency
Reliability

I am not saying that I am leaning towards the mod/con boilers but they are all wall mountable and very efficient. I know they are more expensive up front but will I really save more money? I read the link you posted and I guess it is really a matter of opinion.

What kind of annual maintenance is required for the mod/con boilers? Do they cost you more money in the long run because of the maintenance and because of parts etc...
 
  #13  
Old 12-29-13, 08:21 AM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,809
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
I know they are more expensive up front but will I really save more money?
You need to figure your payback period... IMO no...they will not save you money...


but they are all wall mountable and very efficient.
They take up a lot of wall space too...They stick out some...


What kind of annual maintenance is required for the mod/con boilers?
Most need a $50 gasket kit and the heat exchanger needs to be examined and cleaned yrly.. As well as the condensate trap..

The complete kit and tool for the weil mclains for example is $$80 bucks... But once you have the tool you own it and the kit may be the yearly cost..

Also most mod cons come with inhibitor that needs to be added and maintained. Tested yearly and adjusted.. (sentenial 100)

Do they cost you more money in the long run because of the maintenance and because of parts etc...
I believe so... Complicated control boards, sensors, etc....


Lets ask this where is this boiler going in such a small space, and where are you getting the combustion air from? That may decide all....

Also if your baseboard length is element only your not that over radiated... I calculate 55k btu...

Lets see what your heat loss tells you...
 
  #14  
Old 12-29-13, 08:48 AM
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: canada
Posts: 568
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
navien system

The Thermal Efficiency of a boiler depends on the return water temperature from rads example ,180f = 86% , 80f =97% so as you can see the system has to be designed to take advantage of the potential efficiency of the boiler. Hope this is of some help in your decision.
 
  #15  
Old 12-29-13, 08:48 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 178
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Lets ask this where is this boiler going in such a small space, and where are you getting the combustion air from? That may decide all....

Also if your baseboard length is element only your not that over radiated... I calculate 55k btu...

Lets see what your heat loss tells you...
The boiler is in the garage but the garage is attached the the house. The boiler is up againt the inside wall of the laundry room. The vent goes straight up to the garage roof and out.

I just did a quick heat loss calculation with Slant Fins iphone app and I am getting 11k BTU which really doesnt sound round. I tried to enter the insulation and all the other factors to the best of my ability but it is definitely wrong.
 
  #16  
Old 12-29-13, 09:01 AM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,809
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
I just did a quick heat loss calculation with Slant Fins iphone app and I am getting 11k BTU which really doesnt sound round.
You need to input every room in the home.....

the boiler is up againt the inside wall of the laundry room.

Is this open to the garage? Is there a door? Is the door louvered?

I assume so since you have a boiler there... But know if you add a water heater you are adding another 40k btu appliance that needs combustion air...

I rarely recommend them but sometimes combi boilers are a good choice for space constraints... These are boilers and HWH all in one...

Installed a bosch that needed to come off the floor and go on the wall due to hurricane sandy flooding issues ...We felt that was the best choice to raise boiler and not having to figure a way to raise a HWH in a basement...

Although bosch would not be my choice....
 
  #17  
Old 12-29-13, 10:52 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 178
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I did input every room including hallways... I'll take a look at it again and go over it.

As for the boiler, my garage is a two car garage attached to the house. To get to the garage you walk through the laundry room to the garage. A standard interior door separates the garage and the laundry room. As so as you enter the garage the "boiler room" in on your left butt up against the interior wall to the laundry room. The room is completely sheetrocked and not part of the laundry room.
 
  #18  
Old 12-29-13, 11:38 AM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,809
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
Is this room sealed from floor to cieling?
Is there a door to enter the boiler room?
What type of door?
Are there any air registers cut into the walls of the boiler room?
Is there access to an outside wall from the boiler room?

Just need to make sure there is enough combustion air...

Even though you are DIY permits should be taken out... Its for your protection...
 
  #19  
Old 12-29-13, 11:58 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 178
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
What do you mean by "Is the room sealed from floor to ceiling?

No door to enter the boiler room

And no outside walls in the boiler room. All are interior walls.

See the video below, it's not pretty, I am going to redo all the plumbing and re-Sheetrock everything when we replace the boiler.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sfajr5jbcq...2014.50.55.mov
 
  #20  
Old 12-29-13, 12:26 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,809
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
That rooms huge... You should see where my boiler is... OK air is good.. I see now... No door is good...

In NJ a lolly column must be installed by code to protect the appliances so you do not drive your car into them and cause an explosion...


Hmm what size flue pipe is that going through the roof? Can you measure? Important..How many feet to roof...
 
  #21  
Old 12-29-13, 12:52 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 178
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
I think it's a 6" flue not 100% sure. I'll measure in a little bit. As for the amount of feet to the roof, not sure either but it's atleast 5ft.
 
  #22  
Old 12-29-13, 12:53 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,809
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
Oh it just goes up and out the garage roof... OK...
 
  #23  
Old 12-29-13, 01:22 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 178
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
Yes it literally just goes straight up and out. Above the garage is attic space but you can't even stand up there.
 
  #24  
Old 12-29-13, 01:39 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 178
Received 0 Votes on 0 Posts
So now if I can decide if I should go with cast iron boiler or mod/con boiler.

Is it worth going with the mod/con or better to stay simple and get standard cast iron. I don't mind doing the maintenance myself as I am very handy and usually do everything on my own anyway.

If I do decide mod/con what brands should I look into and what should I stay clear of and vice versa for the cast iron.

If I go cast iron I think I will just get the burnham es2 with outdoor reset.b

Essentially I would like to find pros/cons for both types of systems.
 
  #25  
Old 12-29-13, 01:43 PM
lawrosa's Avatar
Super Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Galivants Ferry SC USA
Posts: 17,809
Received 14 Votes on 12 Posts
Last question whats in your budget? You can do lots of things but its up to you..

How long you going to be in the home?

IMO and if it were me, because I am cheap and want reliability...

#1 I dont care for outdoor reset with a cast iron boiler.. Its does not make sense because the temps should not be below 140 anyway.

The burnham will go as low as 130f supply and 110f returns...
Slant fin seems its set for 140 min supply.. so 120f return with a 20f delta tee..

I Prefer slant fin...

#2. Burnham has ODR only. Slant fin has thermal targeting and responds from t stat input... ODR can be added but IMO thermal targeting is best.. Especially on cast iron boiler...

#3.. Your choice.. Seperate water heater, or indirect.

IMO I would couple the boiler with a SS 35..They are about $700. If it last 10 yrs it paid for itself and you get a new one. The thermal transfer is the best out there that I can see.. Plus no additional flue pipe...

SuperStor Contender Indirect Water Heater - Literature - HTP


So I look at it this way...

For $1300 boiler... ( If you pick up in DE.. Your close enough.)
$700 indirect
$1000 material... ( High end) pumps, valves, copper pipe and fittings, fill valve..etc...etc.

$3000...total...

Even if you did not get the boiler down there to save money lets say $4k..

How can you not be ahead of the game in the long run???


Just my opinion and there are many choices out there.. and many others opinions...

Some like ford, some like chevy..
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: