Burnham P205-WPV Wiring Assistance

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Old 12-28-13, 09:48 PM
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Burnham P205-WPV Wiring Assistance

Hi

I have been lurking on the site for a while, learning alot. There is great content and some extremely knowledgable experts.

I am looking for some help pleas

I have a gas Burnham boiler (its not a high efficiency boiler) and a direct fired gas hot water heater. Presently the home is set up with baseboard heat. There are five zones. The five zones are controlled by honeywell zone valves, and one circulator pump which is located on the return side of the boiler. Also the boiler has a Honeywell L8148e Aquastat. The circulator is wired to the Aquastat as is the gas valve. I believe the zone valves are wired in series to the Aquastat. Two are powered by one 24V external transformer and the other three are powered by a second external transformer.

I am planning to modify the system by doing the following. I will be changing one zone from baseboard to radiant heating, and then adding two zones one for a future indirect water heater, and the other for a future basement expansion project.

Present wiring seems to wire the 5 honeywell zone valve via two external transformers. Lot of wire and just seems very messy. Presently the zone wiring is very old with the insulation cracking off.

As mentioned I would like to redo / rewire the entire system. I will be using wifi thermostats, taco 571 zone valves, and I hope Taco ZVC zone controllers, one controller for the baseboard and indirect water heater set up for priority, and another controller,for the radiant floor heat. I will add another circulator for the radiant heating. When the system is completed I want to have the two circulators run independently of each other. The radiant heat will be controlled by a thermostat that has an in floor probe, a zone valve and one zone controller, and the high temp baseboard zones will be controlled with thermostats, zone valves and another zone controller.

My questions are.

1. How do I wire two controllers to control two different types of heat with one aqua stat.

2. I am planning on using Taco ZVC controllers unless there is a more efficient way?

Also would like your expertise an opinions on this set up.

Thanks. Kevin
 
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Old 12-29-13, 09:13 AM
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Hi Kevin,

1. How do I wire two controllers to control two different types of heat with one aqua stat.
When you say "two different types of heat" you of course mean 'two different TEMPERATURES' because you know that the floor heat is considered 'low temperature' of no more than say 120F, while you still need to be able to provide 180F to the baseboards, if necessary.

The answer is that the solution is not so much in the WIRING as it is in the PIPING, but is a combination of both.

You need a 'mixed temperature' distribution system.

The boiler itself will operate as normal 'high temperature' and the high temp zones pipes normally. The boiler CAN have outdoor reset, but if it's a conventional boiler the reset can only be PARTIAL, not allowing the boiler to run too cool that condensation of the flue gases becomes a problem.

The LOW TEMP zones to the radiant must come from MIXING VALVES that will lower the temperature of the water to the radiant zones to safe and comfortable levels. You don't ever want to pump 180 water into a floor loop!

There are LOTS of ways to achieve this, and you've got lots of studying to do.

2. I am planning on using Taco ZVC controllers unless there is a more efficient way?
That's fine... but there's more to it as stated above. You need to start by putting the design on paper so that you can treat the upgrades as a total solution...

Start by drawing a piping and control diagram... post it here in readable format and we'll try to help.
 
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Old 12-29-13, 10:46 AM
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Need Some Wiring Assistance

Hi

Yes you are correct I would like to have two different temperatures. My apologies for not being clear. I also agree, I don't want to have 180 degree water running through the pex. As suggest attached is a diagram of how I think this would work. Hopefully you can read this.

Again thank you for your guidance

Kevin
 
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Old 12-29-13, 02:41 PM
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Since the forum resizes the photos to fit, that one is going to be difficult to work with... would it be possible for you to set up a free account at Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing and upload the full resolution pic to a PUBLIC album there so that I can view full size... download... mark up... and repost for you?

There's a few changes I can see needed... once we have a workable piping, we can talk about controls.

You aren't going to do this during the winter, are you?
 
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Old 12-29-13, 03:47 PM
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Hi

Okay. Try this link it has all of the photos of the system


Heating System Photos by tekejac | Photobucket


Thanks Kevin
 
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Old 12-29-13, 04:02 PM
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Looks good... gimmee some time to look everything over.

You aren't going to do this during the winter, are you?
 
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Old 12-29-13, 04:06 PM
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this is not my primary residence yet, so its not an issue to not have heat.....but yes I would like to get going on it this winter.

Thank you again for your help

Kevin
 
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Old 12-29-13, 04:45 PM
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not an issue to not have heat
Unless it gets cold enough to freeze the pipes...
 
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Old 12-29-13, 05:11 PM
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That's true but I can get some temp heat in place
 
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Old 12-29-13, 06:42 PM
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There's tons of work you can do to prepare also... before having to cut in and make the final connections.
 
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Old 12-30-13, 05:39 AM
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Okay. Ready to take a look at your suggestions when you have time. Thanks. Kevin
 
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Old 12-30-13, 07:54 AM
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Start by taking a look at this article. Pay attention to the drawing that shows the radiant zones connected via zone valves.

A Little Floor Warming Please John Siegenthaler

Note how the mixing valve is connected via 'closely spaced tees'
 
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Old 12-30-13, 07:56 AM
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This valve is very handy.

0386466 - Watts 0386466 - RBFF, 1/2" Residential Boiler Fill Fitting

I'm not sure how much rework you are going to do, but if it involves the tank connection and the water fill line, consider using this.
 
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Old 12-30-13, 09:26 AM
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I'm not sure how much rework you are going to do, but if it involves the tank connection and the water fill line, consider using this.
Yes most likely will replace the tank and this valve will make servicing so much easier
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-30-13 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 12-30-13, 10:00 AM
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I would probably look at doing something like this.



Link to full size drawing:

kevin_zps9bf6a685.jpg | Photobucket
 
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Old 12-30-13, 10:08 AM
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Another variety of the RBFF without as many bells and whistles, but perfectly adequate and lots cheaper. If using this vs RBFF, you would want a ball valve between this valve and the pressure reducing valve for servicing the reducing valve.:

41672 - Webstone 41672 - 1/2" Pro-Pal Full Port Brass Ball Valve w/ Hi-Flow Hose Drain (600 WOG)



Webstone has a LOT of very useful valves...

PEX - Radiant Heat - Radiant Heating - Plumbing Supplies - PexSupply.com

I like this type for use as 'purge stations' because it combines a whole bunch of parts into one valve. The "T Drain" feature of these means that the drain part can drain from EITHER SIDE of the shutoff valve by reversing the handle (or simply grinding the stop off so you can rotate 180)

50613 - Webstone 50613 - 3/4" Sweat PRO-PAL Ball Valve w/ Drain
(also available in threaded and low lead (not needed for heating systems) versions)

 
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Old 12-30-13, 10:19 AM
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For the headers, something like this:

1-1/2X3/4HEADER-6 - Matco-Norca 1-1/2X3/4HEADER-6 - 1-1/2" Boiler Header with 3/4" Outlets (6 Branches)



The picture shows 3 taps, but this is the link to the 6 tap model.

These are LONG! 6" spacing between taps.

You can make your own out of tee fittings and nipples... probably cost more, but would not need to be as large because the spacing doesn't need to be 6" ... these are mainly for systems that have a pump for each zone.

Using smaller than 1-1/2" for all those zones, if it happens that all zones call at once, they won't get proper flow.

You can probably 'get away with' 1-1/4" though... since it would be somewhat unlikely that all zones would call at once... but 1" is just too small... period. You can only flow TWO zones through 1".

What you've got now is not adequate...
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-30-13 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 12-30-13, 12:13 PM
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adding two zones one for a future indirect water heater, and the other for a future basement expansion project.
If you are going to all the work of re-doing so much of the system, why not do it 'right' and NOT run the indirect through a zone valve but rather on it's own separate PUMPED zone?

Similar to the diagram on page 11 here:

http://www.taco-hvac.com/en/products...wnload_id=8010

taco 571 zone valves
Any particular reason that you don't want to use the existing Honeywell valves?

, and I hope Taco ZVC zone controllers, one controller for the baseboard and indirect water heater set up for priority, and another controller,for the radiant floor heat.
Multiple panels can be 'slaved' together...

When the system is completed I want to have the two circulators run independently of each other.
Actually, you don't. You need the main boiler pump to run for ANY heat call. When there is a radiant call, BOTH pumps need to run. If baseboard zone calls by itself, only the boiler pump will run.

The radiant heat will be controlled by a thermostat that has an in floor probe, a zone valve and one zone controller,
Your drawing seemed to show TWO radiant zones? That's what I've done in my drawing... but they both run as one... so maybe we need to clarify this a bit?

If what you were actually showing was two 200' loops in one floor area, you are probably better off going with FOUR 100' loops feeding off single manifold.
 
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Old 12-31-13, 08:11 AM
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Hi, Thank you for taking the time to teach and explain all of my option to correctly set this up. I very much appreciate it. The diagram is very clear so I will be able to build the system per your plan. Thank you for taking the time to do this for me.

I also wanted to answer some of your questions.

- chose zone valve of pump for the indirect strictly for the purpose for trying to save energy. I thought a pump would be not draw as much electric as a valve.

- using new taco vs the 10+ year old Honeywell valves. I thought newer would be better in this case.

- correct the controller can be combined, with one being a master and the other a slave. I am thinking I should use ZVC's but more on that later.

- perhaps my misunderstanding on the pumps, my thought was that the two pumps would be run independently of each other, however I understand your point.

- the two radiant zones were re-measured and they are approximately 125 feet each.


one of my remaining questions is what type of controller will I need? will I need a Zone Valve Controller or a system relay?

Again thank you so much for all for your help.

Kevin
 
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Old 12-31-13, 08:49 AM
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That drawing is just a 'first cut'... not cast in stone, subject to change. There are going to be details that I've omitted such as service valves and such that you will need to include in the final design.

- chose zone valve of pump for the indirect strictly for the purpose for trying to save energy. I thought a pump would be not draw as much electric as a valve.
I think you typed that backwards...

"...a VALVE would be not draw as much electric as a PUMP..."

This is true, but there will be a compromise between energy saving and recovery performance of the water heater. If you DO choose to go with zone valve over pump, the indirect should be the FIRST port off the manifold and you must use ONE INCH PIPING AND ZONE VALVE. Even if you choose PUMP, you should use 1" pipe to connect to boiler.

Later I will modify the drawing to show how you would connect the indirect heater with pump instead if you would so choose.

- using new taco vs the 10+ year old Honeywell valves. I thought newer would be better in this case.
Perhaps it would. It is your choice to make!

- perhaps my misunderstanding on the pumps, my thought was that the two pumps would be run independently of each other, however I understand your point.
A bit more on this... the pump for the radiant being on the other side of the mixing valve can not be used to create the proper flow in the boiler. The radiant is treated as another zone and the pump on the radiant zone is for circulating the lower temperature water in the radiant tubing.

- the two radiant zones were re-measured and they are approximately 125 feet each.
My question though... Is this TWO LOOPS of tubing in ONE ZONE? I have not drawn it as such in my diagram. Always strive to keep the tubing lengths off a single radiant manifold as close as possible to the same length. This way the flow will be close to equal without having to balance the flow with expensive flow meter valves.
 
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Old 12-31-13, 08:52 AM
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- correct the controller can be combined, with one being a master and the other a slave. I am thinking I should use ZVC's but more on that later.

one of my remaining questions is what type of controller will I need? will I need a Zone Valve Controller or a system relay?
You will need a combination most likely.

A ZVC panel to run the valves, these zone valve panels can probably also be used to control the radiant pump.

If you decide on a pump for the indirect, you would configure as per the diagram in the link I posted previously.

Once I know exactly your decisions I can put together a wiring diagram for you as well...
 
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Old 12-31-13, 10:03 AM
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Another question:

You say that you want to convert one of the baseboard zones to radiant.

Have you done the calculations to know if you will get sufficient BTU output from the radiant floor to meet the heat loss of the room?

This is IMPORTANT! of course, because when all is done, you don't want a cold room, even if the floors are warm!
 
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Old 12-31-13, 10:51 AM
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If you go with the pumped indirect, you can do this... almost exactly from the Taco wiring guide, with a few things added and minor changes...



Link to full size drawing:

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/d...psac63b6b5.jpg
 
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Old 12-31-13, 10:56 AM
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Here's the basic hookup for pumped indirect:



Remember, add service valves where appropriate.

Link to full size:

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/d...ps6416cba8.jpg
 
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Old 12-31-13, 11:19 AM
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Hi the heat loss on the room is 5948 using the slant fin heat loss calc. I figure that I will be able to get 25 btu of heat per sq ft using the pex. Given the sq ft of the area which is 238 I think we are okay.
 
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Old 12-31-13, 12:09 PM
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I figure that I will be able to get 25 btu of heat per sq ft using the pex
You better hope so! Reality is that 15 is a more realistic figure.

Better not 'think' you're OK... better be SURE!
 

Last edited by NJT; 12-31-13 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 01-02-14, 01:19 PM
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Hi

Digesting the wiring diagram and had some questions for you.

I will be eliminating one of the baseboard zones so only need 6 zones. I will pipe a circulator for the indrect water heater.

- Would you suggest a variable speed pump such as this one for the radiant heat? 00R 3-Speed Cast Iron Circulator - Integral Flow Check, 1/20 HP

- Also in the drawing (which is great by the way) you have chosen an SR501 EXP 4, Do I need the expandable model or can i go with just an SR501-4

- Lastly in the piping diagram i was planning to go to with 3/4 as the zone valve and stay at 3/4 until I get to where the pex connects. Is that what you are suggesting to do?

Thanks Kevin
 
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Old 01-03-14, 12:21 PM
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- Would you suggest a variable speed pump such as this one for the radiant heat? 00R 3-Speed Cast Iron Circulator - Integral Flow Check, 1/20 HP
I don't think a 3 speed is necessary... but it wouldn't hurt anything if you wanted to use it.

- Also in the drawing (which is great by the way) you have chosen an SR501 EXP 4, Do I need the expandable model or can i go with just an SR501-4
I just used the drawing as it came out of the Taco wiring diagram.

You can use almost any of the single zone relays as long as one of the poles is a DPDT. I've redrawn for the old style 501...



- Lastly in the piping diagram i was planning to go to with 3/4 as the zone valve and stay at 3/4 until I get to where the pex connects. Is that what you are suggesting to do?
I'm still not sure what you are planning... I asked earlier:

- the two radiant zones were re-measured and they are approximately 125 feet each.
My question though... Is this TWO LOOPS of tubing in ONE ZONE? I have not drawn it as such in my diagram. Always strive to keep the tubing lengths off a single radiant manifold as close as possible to the same length. This way the flow will be close to equal without having to balance the flow with expensive flow meter valves.
I'll update the drawing appropriately when I know what you want to do.

Are you saying that you will have TWO 125' loops of 1/2" PEX in ONE zone?
 
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Old 01-03-14, 12:46 PM
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Hi

I understand....on the pump. I will just use a regular pump and keep it simple

Okay on the System relay I will use just a basic SR501-4 and not the expandable version.

As for the radaint in floor I have two seperate loops that each are 125 feet each. I was planning on using one zone to service both loops....my apologies for not being clear on this. So the way you have it drawn is correct and the way it will be.

Thanks

Kevin
 
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Old 01-03-14, 01:26 PM
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So the way you have it drawn is correct and the way it will be.
No... not really. My drawing is showing two individual manifolds.

If you are running two 1/2" loops of PEX on one zone with one valve, you can feed this with 3/4".

General rule is that when combining flows, you can feed two of the same size into one of the next size up.

Two 1/2" into one 3/4"

Two 3/4" into one 1"
Four 1/2" into one 1"

Two 1" into one 1-1/4"
Four 3/4" into one 1-1/4"
Eight 1/2" into one 1-1/4"

Here's another diagram:



Full size drawing here:

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/d...ps4b0725b5.jpg
 
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Old 01-13-14, 05:15 AM
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Hi NJ Trooper

Thank you for all of your help on this. I am gathering my parts and will begin work shortly. I did have 2 questions for you.

On your latest diagram, and on the zone that will control the radiant heat, the line that has the globe valve in it, what diameter pipe would you suggest I use.

Also I will be reducing the number of zones need from 7 down to 5, still using a separate circulator for the indirect HW heater. Would it be acceptable to 1.25 diameter pipe instead of the 1.5 for the headers?

Thanks again

Kevin
 
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Old 01-13-14, 06:29 AM
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On your latest diagram, and on the zone that will control the radiant heat, the line that has the globe valve in it, what diameter pipe would you suggest I use
As long as the heat load on that zone is less than 40K BTUH, then 3/4" is fine.

reducing the number of zones need from 7 down to 5, still using a separate circulator for the indirect HW heater. Would it be acceptable to 1.25 diameter pipe instead of the 1.5 for the headers?
You can probably get away with it... most of the time not all zones are operating at the same time anyway, so there is some 'fudge factor' that can be played with.
 
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Old 01-13-14, 11:31 AM
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Thank you for those answers.......3/4 it will be. I am looking at this globe valve. Will this one work?

V5862A2070 - Honeywell V5862A2070 - 3/4" NPT Two Way Cartridge Globe Valve (4.9 Cv)

Thanks
 
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Old 01-13-14, 05:17 PM
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While that's a good valve, I don't like the fact that it's a 'soft seat'. You don't need this valve to actually shut off the water, it's only a throttle, so positive shut off is not a requirement. Soft seat means eventual maintenance... hard seat lasts forever (stem packing is easy to service)

Nibco seems to have discontinued their 'hard seat' valves, either bronze or teflon seats... (teflon isn't really 'hard', but just as good as) but there are some to still be found, for example:

Nibco s 211 B 3/4" sweat Bronze Disc Globe Valve 125 SWP 200 WOG S211B s 211 | eBay

New Unused Nibco s 211 Y Gate Valve 200WOG 125 SWP 3/4" 280 4 | eBay

[seller called this a 'gate valve', it is NOT a gate valve!]

These valves were VERY expensive new!

Nibco valves you would want to find are:

T = threaded
S = solder

211-B = bronze seat
211-Y = teflon seat

For example:
T-211-B = threaded bronze seat
S-211-Y = solder teflon seat
 

Last edited by NJT; 02-05-14 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 01-14-14, 09:00 AM
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Troop

Thanks for the info. I used those numbers to search the Internet and located a new T-211-B. decent pricing. Thank you for your suggestion

Kevin
 
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Old 01-21-14, 06:08 AM
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Hi Troop

In the latest drawing you have a differential valve. I have a few questions which I was hoping you would answer for me

1. What is the purpose of this valve
2. What diameter would I use? The manifolds will be 1.25
3. Any particular brand? Would this work. 113247 - Bell & Gossett 113247 - 3/4" Differential Bypass Valve
4. How would I know if it needs to be adjusted.

Thank you again for all of your help
 
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Old 01-21-14, 06:28 AM
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Hi Kevin,

1. What is the purpose of this valve
The differential bypass valve serves to 'equalize' the flow in the zones when only one or two are open. Without this valve when only one or two zones are open the flow in those zones could be excessive.

2. What diameter would I use? The manifolds will be 1.25
A 3/4" valve would be fine.

3. Any particular brand? Would this work.
The B&G valve is fine, any other manufacturer is OK too.

4. How would I know if it needs to be adjusted.
It will need adjustment, it's easy... instructions with the valve... basically what you do is set the system so ALL zones are calling for heat. Then you adjust the valve so that it just begins to open and back off a wee bit so it's closed. What happens is that as the zones begin to close, the bypass begins to open and relieve the excess pump pressure from the fewer open zones.

I might even modify that process a bit... since you have so many zones... I might open only three of the zones and then adjust the valve. This would allow the pump to give full flow to the zones when 3 or more valves are open.
 
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Old 02-05-14, 12:28 PM
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Hi Troop

Been busy getting this piped. Had a side question for you. My boiler doesn't have a vent damper. Is this something easily added and would it help with efficiency? Also here are some progress photos
 
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Old 02-05-14, 01:07 PM
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Looks good so far...

Curious about the crooked pump though... how come?

My boiler doesn't have a vent damper. Is this something easily added and would it help with efficiency?
Fairly easy to add ... I'm sure it saves a bit, has to if it traps heat in the boiler that would otherwise go up the chimney... not to mention the air from the home going up the chimney that causes outside air to find it's way in every air leak.

Check out the Field Controls " GVD " series.
 
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Old 02-05-14, 04:00 PM
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Hi, Do you mean why is it at an angle? Pump bolts are only hand tight, so when it tightened up it will be nice and level. Also when i was installing it I thought I would have an interference with the gas pipe, however I think I will have room.

As for the damper I found these, will they work?

GVD-6PL - Field Controls GVD-6PL - 6" Automatic GVD Vent Damper, without harness

46579100 - Field Controls 46579100 - GVD-UWK, 8' Harness w/ Conduit (Universal)
 
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